jkarp
Well-Known Member
Haven't listened yet. That's an awesome tip. Anywhere us mere mortals can get it? Northern Brewer?
Sam Adams Noble Pils clone
- Thread starter jgourd
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Haven't listened yet. That's an awesome tip. Anywhere us mere mortals can get it? Northern Brewer?
pernox
Well-Known Member
Rebel Brewer has it.
http://www.rebelbrewer.com/shopping...ted-Bohemian-Pilsner-Malt-(by-the-pound).html
I absolutely love this beer, and I think I'll have to whip up a couple batches to have around for summer.
Is there a consensus from those who have brewed on the best yeast selection? I see a few mentioned; is one closest to the "Sam Adams taste" as compared to the others?
http://www.rebelbrewer.com/shopping...ted-Bohemian-Pilsner-Malt-(by-the-pound).html
I absolutely love this beer, and I think I'll have to whip up a couple batches to have around for summer.
Is there a consensus from those who have brewed on the best yeast selection? I see a few mentioned; is one closest to the "Sam Adams taste" as compared to the others?
So how exactly does this work. If you take the 1/6 out with yeast and refrigerate it...wont it stil ferment in the refrigerator? I am assuming you take the other 1/6 and place in freezer without yeast added to it.
jkarp
Well-Known Member
You hold back 1/6 of the yeast slurry and 1/6th of the wort. Not together, obviously. Keep both in the fridge. I've done my noble pils clone with and without the krausening. No real difference IMO and not worth the bother.
I thought I saw in one of the recipes that a mix of pils malt and regular 2 row was used. Are you guys doing this with all Pils or a blend?
Any reason you guys are choosing the german pilsner malt? I'm no expert at creating a recipe at all, in fact I'm barely looking through the window into that world but here's my 2¢, for what they're worth.
I have always brewed from the Clone Brews book by Tess and Mark Szamatulski. The clone recipe for Boston Lager in that book calls for "US 2-row pale malt" + .5 lb of US crystal malt.
Please feel free to debate this with me, but I found the malty flavor of Boston Lager to be very similar to that of the Noble Pils.
I'm planning on trying my own version of the Noble Pils and I'm inclined to go with the malt that is used in the book for the Boston Lager unless anyone can say why another malt would be better. Thanks!
I have always brewed from the Clone Brews book by Tess and Mark Szamatulski. The clone recipe for Boston Lager in that book calls for "US 2-row pale malt" + .5 lb of US crystal malt.
Please feel free to debate this with me, but I found the malty flavor of Boston Lager to be very similar to that of the Noble Pils.
I'm planning on trying my own version of the Noble Pils and I'm inclined to go with the malt that is used in the book for the Boston Lager unless anyone can say why another malt would be better. Thanks!
jkarp
Well-Known Member
Why wouldn't you use the ACTUAL malt in Noble Pils? Weyermanns Floor Malted Bohemian Pilsner Malt.
Yeah, I'm considering it. I prefer to stick to one distributor rather than having a little bit of this and a little bit of that sent from everywhere. I live in the boonies of Kansas, so everything needs to be shipped to me. I have had pretty good luck finding everything I need with Midwest Supplies, but I might just go ahead with the Rebel Brewer in this case. Cheers!!
Midwest Supplies has a Bohemian Pilsner Malt. It doesn't say anything about it being "Floor Malted", but it might be close enough.
http://www.midwestsupplies.com/bohemian-pilsner-malt-weyermannr-10-lb.html
I just have an issue with paying $14 for the grain and $14 to have it shipped.
http://www.midwestsupplies.com/bohemian-pilsner-malt-weyermannr-10-lb.html
I just have an issue with paying $14 for the grain and $14 to have it shipped.
Weyermann has both Bohemian Pilsner and Bohemian Floor Malted Pilsner. They aren't the same malt.
If you are concerned about cost and aren't trying to clone the beer exactly, then I would just use what you have. It sounds like you're an intermediate brewer, and if so, then you probably won't notice a huge difference until you've fined tune your process. If I'm wrong in that assumption, then by all means go for it! If not, RDWHAHB.
If you are concerned about cost and aren't trying to clone the beer exactly, then I would just use what you have. It sounds like you're an intermediate brewer, and if so, then you probably won't notice a huge difference until you've fined tune your process. If I'm wrong in that assumption, then by all means go for it! If not, RDWHAHB.
Hehe, yeah, I guess I'm in the intermediate league. I would prefer to go with as close to exactly as I can though and I'm always striving to make my brews better (as I'm sure we all are). Thanks for the advice, I will consider it.
jkarp
Well-Known Member
I splurged on the floor malted pils for this year's batch. 100% agreed it sucks that the shipping cost as much as the malt. Mine's been idling for 2 weeks now at 28F. As soon as I've got an open keg I'll be carbonating it up.
jgourd
Well-Known Member
I would brew it with the 2-row. We will never get it exactly the same as the Noble Pils. And to be honest, most of us probably wouldn't mind the *slight* taste/aroma difference with using 2-row.
Mine is in the keg and chilling at lager temps until I have a spare tap. It's been lagering in the fermenter for a month before that. So I'll probably have 2 months of lagering total.
Mine is in the keg and chilling at lager temps until I have a spare tap. It's been lagering in the fermenter for a month before that. So I'll probably have 2 months of lagering total.
King of Cascade
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If you use this thinking, why not use american hops and an english yeast.
I got it to homebrewing years ago so I could make the best possible beer. I also try to make the most accurate styles, If you want to just make beer then go ahead and use 2 row
I agree and disagree. That is the beauty of this hobby/obsession/<insert appropriate title here>.
If your goal is to get as close as possible to cloning SA Noble Pils, then the Internet and the kind brewers at SA have provided enough information on process and ingredients to get you there.
If your goal is to brew a great lager inspired by this particular beer, then you can do that too. I think it's a bit shorter to tell bmantzy to "just make beer" by using 2 row instead of floor malted pilsner. Same goes for using American hops and British yeast. You're not just making beer. You're making YOUR beer, the way you want it, and in all likelihood, something you can't get anywhere else in the world.
For me, the hobby is all about experimentation. Sometimes my experiments have the desired results. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes the end result is "just making beer" (in which case I serve it to my wife's friends). Sometimes the end result is better than what I was trying to clone (in which case I am incredibly pleased).
Just because Jim K. and the boys made this beer a certain way, does not mean that a very close approximation using slightly different ingredients wouldn't be just as good, or even better, than the SA version.
I think the word "clone" when we're talking about these recipes is a bit of a misnomer anyway. Just because you use the exact ingredients in the exact proportions that SA used, you're in no way "cloning" their beer. There are so many variables that we cannot replicate (not the least of which is the fact that we're brewing this 5 and 10 gallons at a time, not in a commercial packaging brewery).
I guess what I'm saying is, if a commercial beer inspires you, learn as much as you can about it, then start brewing. If your goal is to get as close as you can to a copy or clone of that beer, then go for it. If the style and nuance of the beer itself appeals to you, and your ingredients and process dictate that you can get in the same ballpark but not exactly "clone" it, then brew YOUR beer.
Assuming you practiced sound brewing fundamentals, sanitation and fermentation, you'll be happy either way.
jkarp
Well-Known Member
Umm, I would venture that all beer drinkers but the most clueless BMC kind would know the difference between a two-row and pilsner based beer. Pretty basic stuff there chap.
Despite my sermon above, I do agree with the fact that you'd be able to tell the difference. Even my dad who's favorite style of beer is "cold" picked up on it when I brewed him a blonde ale and used the pilsner I had on hand vs. 2-row.
I actually decided to go with the Pilsner Malt. If Midwest Supplies had the floor-malt, or if Rebel Brewer had the Mittelfruh, I would have gone with a recipe as close to possible. I do agree that making it as close to possible should generally be the goal, but I also agree that it's never going to be the same, regardless. I'm happy to be saving $14 by going with one supplier and I'll be happy when I drink my product because even if it isn't EXACTLY the same, I'll definitely enjoy it.
Maybe when I've learned how to do a double decoction mash and had experience krausening, then I'll go all out and make it more close to the real thing.
Thanks again!
Oh, what do they say? RDWHHB!! (or six)
Maybe when I've learned how to do a double decoction mash and had experience krausening, then I'll go all out and make it more close to the real thing.
Thanks again!
Oh, what do they say? RDWHHB!! (or six)
Koz
Member
jgourd-
Do you have your final recipe, I'd like to give this a shot for my next beer.
Thanks in advance.
Koz
Do you have your final recipe, I'd like to give this a shot for my next beer.
Thanks in advance.
Koz
jgourd
Well-Known Member
This is what I went with the last time. It's in the keg, but I'll be carbonating it in the next few weeks:
Code:
Batch Size: 6.00 gal (9.15 gal preboil)
Estimated OG: 1.050 SG (actual: 1.046 SG)
Estimated FG: 1.012 SG (actual: 1.014 SG)
Estimated IBUs: 36 (Tinseth; actual: 40)
Estimated Color: 4 SRM (actual: 4 SRM)
Brewhouse Efficiency: 73% (actual: 67%)
Boil Time: 90 minutes
Grains:
10.25# Pilsner (2-Row) Germany (2.0L) (91.11%)
1.00# Carapils/Dextrine (2.0L) (8.89%)
Hops:
1.50 oz Tettnanger (US) (4.7%) @60 min
1.00 oz Hersbrucker (2.5%) @15 min
1.25 oz Saaz (CZ) (3.9%) @15 min
1.25 oz Hallertauer (US) (3.0%) @15 min
2.00 oz Hallertauer (US) (3.0%) @0 min
2.00 oz Spalt (GR) (4.1%) @0 min
Yeast:
White Labs WLP830 (German Lager)
Mash/Sparge Schedule:
Single Infusion, 153F; Batch Sparge
Mash for 60 min at 153F w/ 3.52 gal of water at 171F
Mashout w/ 1.73 gal of water at 210F; hold for 10 min
Batch sparge w/ 5.56 gal of water at 178F; hold for 10 min
Fermentation Schedule:
Primary Fermentation: 21 days @52F
Secondary Fermentation: 29 days @32Fjgourd
Well-Known Member
@0 min means at flameout, when the boil is done and you turn off the heat. I usually turn off the heat and then add the 0 min hops.
I would use dextrose (corn sugar) for bottle priming. In terms of how much, that would depend on the temperature of the beer at bottling time, how much I am bottling and the volumes of CO2 I want in the beer. Most people use about 4.5 to 5 oz for 5 gals. But again, it depends. Colder beer has more CO2 in solution than warm beer. For my taste, I'd go for about 2.5 volumes of CO2.
To calculate the amount of corn sugar (in oz), simply use the following formula:
15.195 * <quantity> * (<volumes> - 3.0378 + (0.050062 * <temp>) - (0.0002655 * <temp>^2)) * 0.0352739619
Where:
<quantity> is the volume of beer to be bottled in gallons
<volumes> is the desired volumes of CO2
<temp> is the temperature of the beer in degrees F
To calculate the amount of DME (in oz), simply use the following formula:
<dextrose> * 1.4
Where:
<dextrose> is the amount of corn sugar calculated in the previous formula in oz.
So for example, if you are bottling 5 gals of beer at 68F and you want 2.5 volumes of CO2:
15.195 * 5 gals * (2.5 volumes CO2 - 3.0378 + (0.050062 * 68F) - (0.0002655 * 68F^2)) * 0.0352739619
= 4.39 oz of corn sugar
4.39 oz * 1.4
= 6.15 oz LME
I would use dextrose (corn sugar) for bottle priming. In terms of how much, that would depend on the temperature of the beer at bottling time, how much I am bottling and the volumes of CO2 I want in the beer. Most people use about 4.5 to 5 oz for 5 gals. But again, it depends. Colder beer has more CO2 in solution than warm beer. For my taste, I'd go for about 2.5 volumes of CO2.
To calculate the amount of corn sugar (in oz), simply use the following formula:
15.195 * <quantity> * (<volumes> - 3.0378 + (0.050062 * <temp>) - (0.0002655 * <temp>^2)) * 0.0352739619
Where:
<quantity> is the volume of beer to be bottled in gallons
<volumes> is the desired volumes of CO2
<temp> is the temperature of the beer in degrees F
To calculate the amount of DME (in oz), simply use the following formula:
<dextrose> * 1.4
Where:
<dextrose> is the amount of corn sugar calculated in the previous formula in oz.
So for example, if you are bottling 5 gals of beer at 68F and you want 2.5 volumes of CO2:
15.195 * 5 gals * (2.5 volumes CO2 - 3.0378 + (0.050062 * 68F) - (0.0002655 * 68F^2)) * 0.0352739619
= 4.39 oz of corn sugar
4.39 oz * 1.4
= 6.15 oz LME
Koz
Member
Thanks jgourd, let us know how this batch turns out.
No dry hopping???
No dry hopping???
@jgourd - Thanks man, that's some good stuff there. In fact, I'm going to copy and paste that into a note for myself. I'll probably refer to these equations when I need them.
Okay, so that flameout thing you're talking about; how long do you leave the hops in the wort after you turn off the boil?
I'm a little surprised that you aren't dry hopping as well. Originally, you talked about dividing each hops almost equally and putting almost equal amounts in at each phase of hopping. That sounded interesting. What changed your mind? If I did it that way, do you think I might have success? (.25oz of each kind of hop for bitter, .25 for flavor, .25 for aroma, and .25 dry)
I'm in the very early stages of experimenting and learning specifically what flavors you get from which hops/malts/yeasts/etc., so this is very intriguing to me. Thanks again!
Okay, so that flameout thing you're talking about; how long do you leave the hops in the wort after you turn off the boil?
I'm a little surprised that you aren't dry hopping as well. Originally, you talked about dividing each hops almost equally and putting almost equal amounts in at each phase of hopping. That sounded interesting. What changed your mind? If I did it that way, do you think I might have success? (.25oz of each kind of hop for bitter, .25 for flavor, .25 for aroma, and .25 dry)
I'm in the very early stages of experimenting and learning specifically what flavors you get from which hops/malts/yeasts/etc., so this is very intriguing to me. Thanks again!
jgourd
Well-Known Member
For flameout hops, I just add them right after I turn off the heat. Then I drain the wort to my fermenter through my counterflow wort chiller which takes about 15 minutes to cool the entire batch of beer. I "filter" hops by using a screen on the inside of my kettle and also a strainer at the output of the drain into the fermenter. If I use over 4 oz of hops in total during brewing, then I also use a paint strainer bag that's in my kettle and add the hops in it as opposed to directly in the kettle.
I split hops evenly for the first batch and found that it was a very good beer, but not as close to the Noble Pils as I would have liked. I am going for that unique flavor/aroma. So I changed the hops in the second version. I have no idea how it will turn out yet, but I'll let you know as soon as the keg is carbonated when I get back home next week.
Judge
Well-Known Member
jgourd
Well-Known Member
Actually, I made some mods to my keg system and had to wait until a few days ago to carbonate this brew. I will take a sample this evening, but it may not be until tomorrow evening that it is adequately carbonated. I'll add a post about it.
And no adjustments to my water profile. I use my local city water but have no idea what its profile is. That's something I need to look into though...
Judge
Well-Known Member
Cool! I look forward to your comments because I want to brew your "final adjusted recipe" on Sunday.
I ask about the water profile because another brewer (whose knowledge level I'm unsure about) said this recipe will produce an "highly bitter" beer if brewed with hard water (which I have) since 25 of the 39 IBUs are from the bittering charge. He also said I need to use 5.2pH stabilizer or risk low efficiency due to the use of pale malts (in combination with the hard water).
jgourd
Well-Known Member
Cool! I look forward to your comments because I want to brew your "final adjusted recipe" on Sunday.
I ask about the water profile because another brewer (whose knowledge level I'm unsure about) said this recipe will produce an "highly bitter" beer if brewed with hard water (which I have) since 25 of the 39 IBUs are from the bittering charge. He also said I need to use 5.2pH stabilizer or risk low efficiency due to the use of pale malts (in combination with the hard water).
I can't speak as to what effects hard water may have on your resulting brew, but I can't possibly fathom that hard water will result in bad beer. I have used 5.2 stabilizer on a few batches, but have found my city water to be just fine for my brews. I've never had it checked out in terms of minerals and such. It's an area that I am not quite knowledgeable on and hope to be in the future. You know, this hobby has a lot of variables...
So I tasted my second version yesterday evening. Of course, it's only been recently carbonated, so it always tastes and feels better after a few weeks under carbonation. But it was pretty darn good! I would say that it is better than my first attempt in terms of flavor and aroma in general (not comparing to the Noble Pils). It's a much better pilsner in general than my last one. Now with regard to the Noble Pils. It's not a clone. I can tell flavors and aromas that are similar to the Noble Pils, but that "special" aroma and flavor is missing. And actually, after I brewed this earlier in the year, I found the Latitude 48 (Sam Adams IPA) to have a similar hop aroma/flavor in one respect. The commonality was Hallertauer Mittelfruh. So it leads me to believe two things: (1) Hallertauer is used heavily as a flavor and aroma addition; and (2) it could just be the yeast. So my next batch will change the hop schedule to go heavy on Hallertauer for flavor and aroma additions (no dry hop). I think with that we might be able to discern if it's the hops or their proprietary yeast that gives the Noble Pils its unique profile.
OK all that being said, this beer is great and will be perfect this summer as a light brew!
If you want, I can work on what will probably be my next version of this with the Hallertauer heaviness.
jgourd
Well-Known Member
OK. Here's a hack at my next version of this:
Code:
Batch Size: 6.00 gal (9.38 gal preboil)
Estimated OG: 1.050 SG
Estimated FG: 1.012 SG
Estimated IBUs: 30 (Tinseth)
Estimated Color: 4 SRM
Brewhouse Efficiency: 73%
Boil Time: 90 minutes
Grains:
10.25# Pilsner (2-Row) Germany (2.0L) (91.11%)
1.00# Carapils/Dextrine (2.0L) (8.89%)
Hops:
1.00 oz Tettnanger (US) (4.7%) @60 min
0.50 oz Spalt (GR) (4.1%) @15 min
0.50 oz Hersbrucker (2.5%) @15 min
2.00 oz Hallertauer (US) (3.0%) @15 min
0.50 oz Saaz (CZ) (3.9%) @3 min
2.00 oz Hallertauer (US) (3.0%) @3 min
Yeast:
White Labs WLP830 (German Lager)
Mash/Sparge Schedule:
Single Infusion, 152F; Batch Sparge
Fermentation Schedule:
Primary Fermentation: 21 days @52F
Secondary Fermentation: 7 days @62F
Lagering: 28 days @32FJudge
Well-Known Member
I can't speak as to what effects hard water may have on your resulting brew, but I can't possibly fathom that hard water will result in bad beer. I have used 5.2 stabilizer on a few batches, but have found my city water to be just fine for my brews. I've never had it checked out in terms of minerals and such. It's an area that I am not quite knowledgeable on and hope to be in the future. You know, this hobby has a lot of variables...
So I tasted my second version yesterday evening. Of course, it's only been recently carbonated, so it always tastes and feels better after a few weeks under carbonation. But it was pretty darn good! I would say that it is better than my first attempt in terms of flavor and aroma in general (not comparing to the Noble Pils). It's a much better pilsner in general than my last one. Now with regard to the Noble Pils. It's not a clone. I can tell flavors and aromas that are similar to the Noble Pils, but that "special" aroma and flavor is missing. And actually, after I brewed this earlier in the year, I found the Latitude 48 (Sam Adams IPA) to have a similar hop aroma/flavor in one respect. The commonality was Hallertauer Mittelfruh. So it leads me to believe two things: (1) Hallertauer is used heavily as a flavor and aroma addition; and (2) it could just be the yeast. So my next batch will change the hop schedule to go heavy on Hallertauer for flavor and aroma additions (no dry hop). I think with that we might be able to discern if it's the hops or their proprietary yeast that gives the Noble Pils its unique profile.
OK all that being said, this beer is great and will be perfect this summer as a light brew!
If you want, I can work on what will probably be my next version of this with the Hallertauer heaviness.
Great to hear your positive impressions!
Yeah, I'm not going to sweat the water. I've never made a bad beer with local tap water so why worry now?
I think all Sam Adams beers share a unique flavor that I have to guess is the yeast.
Brewing on Sunday...
Judge
Well-Known Member
Interesting change in the hop schedule. I love this hobby...so many things to tinker with...keep us posted on version 3.
stubbornman
Well-Known Member
Nice, I'm making your recipe next weekend for sure.
When you say "Sam Adams flavor", you just mean a house flavor or yeast?
stubbornman
Well-Known Member
LOL, just realized that quote is almost a year old... :fro:
If I were to brew this but use an ale yeast, since I don't have the ability to lager, how would this change the taste? I'm looking to make a good summer beer and I thought noble pils would be a good choice. I guess I would have to call it noble ale though, right?
kal
Well-Known Member
It would be more fruity/estery.
Use a neutral yeast like WLP001/WY1056/US-05 and ferment in the mid to low 60's with lots of healthy yeast and it should be very nice. It won't be as clean tasting as true lager but still enjoyable.
I often do split batches where one gets US-05 ale yeast and one gets W-34/70 lager yeast. One becomes a "blonde ale" and the other a "german lager".
Kal
Brewing Clamper
Well-Known Member
The new issue of Zymurgy has the recipe provided by Boston Brewing Co. I'm SO trying that next!
jkarp
Well-Known Member
And, wow, were our guessed recipes off. I'm shocked it's 75% pale 2-row...
