Salt Additions to MT - RO Water w/Herms

[Uke733]

I'm brew with 3 vessel HERMs and RO water, I usually add all salts to BK and nothing to MT & HLT.

Recently brewed where the grain bill needed quite a bit of latic acid to get to desired PH.

Started scratching the noggin and thought why not use some of the salts in the MT to help get to desired PH? So my question is this, do I need to account for salts that do not make it out of the MT or is it "close enough" to assume they all make it to the BK?

 

[Deadalus]

I brew with a 3 vessel EHERMS and RO water. I'm not sure about pH effects in the boil but the main concern for pH is in the mash. You would measure the mash pH to check target pH.

I also use Brewsmith. Salts are added to the mash and more are ultimately added to the BK. The extra ending up in the BK can be salts added to sparge water or directly to the BK. I'm not at all fluent enough in water chemistry to explain the effects of salts but they affect more than just pH. In Brewsmith, you can pick a target profile and generally that results in salt additions to the MT and either (sparge water, BK). The pH can then be altered by acid additions or the grain bill, for example acidulated malt.

In a way it's economy to NOT add the salts to the HLT because all the water is not used. That would be like you were trying to just match a location's water, which is the basic idea. Changing the chemistry of the water during mash and/or boil is attempting to more specifically affect the resulting wort.

 

[mabrungard]

There are at least two reasons why you should be adding calcium salts to your mashing water: pH reduction and oxylate precipitation. Adding all salts to the kettle isn't helping.

 

[Uke733]

There are at least two reasons why you should be adding calcium salts to your mashing water: pH reduction and oxylate precipitation. Adding all salts to the kettle isn't helping.

I'll try asking the question another way, if I add 5 grams of say epsom salt to the MT, how much should I assume makes it into the BK? 100%?

I'm fly sparging with RO water (no salts), so if I want to hit a target in my BK, don't I have to make a guess or does everyone assume100% of the epsom salt makes it from the MT to the BK?

Edited to add: I'm obviously not being clear. I sparge with untreated RO water, I want to treat my MT water only and add the remaining salt to the BK. How do I account for the salts that remain in the MT (which I think is necessary when trying to determine how much to add to the BK)?

 

[VikeMan]

I'll try asking the question another way, if I add 5 grams of say epsom salt to the MT, how much should I assume makes it into the BK? 100%?

No, 100% will not make it (as free ions) into the boil kettle. One reason is that 100% of the water/wort doesn't make it to the boil kettle. Now, you can happily ignore that, because it's (in broad strokes, but depending on whether or not you sparge, and how) proportional. i.e. if you are doing a no-sparge (like BIAB, for example), the concentrations would be the same. But...

Your epsom salt, for example, dissociates into Magnesium ions and Sulfate ions. Some of the Magnesium ions will be used in chemical reactions with phosphates from the malt, releasing H+ (which lowers mash pH) and precipitating Magnesium in insoluble phosphate salts. So although some of that portion of the Magnesium does make it to the kettle, it's not as free ions.

But my recommendation would be to not overthink this. When you see something like a recommendation for (say) 50 ppm Calcium (or Chlorides or whatever), people really mean starting with 50 ppm in the water, not necessarily ending up at 50 ppm pre-boil, post boil, or in the final beer. They haven't measured the final concentrations of free ions in the wort or the beer. I'm probably in the 99th percentile of homebrewers in the category of time spent (or wasted, depending on POV) on thinking about water. And I don't normally give a second thought to what's lost ion-wise between pre-mash and boil kettle.

If however you do decide to overthink this, you might expect roughly 60% or so of your Calcium/Magnesium ions to make it to the boil kettle as free ions. But I don't think that's a particularly useful number to know.

 

[Uke733]

If however you do decide to overthink this, you might expect roughly 60% or so of your Calcium/Magnesium ions to make it to the boil kettle as free ions. But I don't think that's a particularly useful number to know.

I sparge with untreated RO water and add some salts to the MT.

How would you account for what salts carry over into the BK and what stays in the MT (which I think is necessary when trying to determine how much to add to the BK)?

 

[hottpeper13]

My beer turns out really good to excellent doing this. I put ? ppm's of salts per gal. Lets say I need 8 gal total brewing liquor, 4- MT 4- HLT. I need 1 gram per gal of CaCL2 and .5 grams per gal of CaSO4 to get my numbers. I need 8 gal of liquor, so 8 grams of CaCL2 and 4 grams of CaSO4. I split that in half and add half to the MT and the other to the BK cause I don't want salts in my HLT. Oh yeah, I use RO water.

 

[VikeMan]

I sparge with untreated RO water and add some salts to the MT.

How would you account for what salts carry over into the BK and what stays in the MT (which I think is necessary when trying to determine how much to add to the BK)?

Again, I wouldn't do this. But if you want to, you need to estimate how much of each ion is transformed into something else. Then, for what's left, write a formula for your concentrations in the kettle, taking into account your sparge process. If you fly sparge, good luck! If you batch sparge, it's not too hard conceptually, if you understand volumes and concentrations. But it's more than I'm willing to do for you, since I'm advising against it. There are others here who might.

But again, after all that tedious math, what would you do with this information? i.e. what target are you going to build to in the kettle, given that every target you are likely to have ever read about has been for the starting water profile and not the kettle wort profile, completely ignoring the transformation of calcium and magnesium in the mash?

Or, you could use a water calculator, like Bru'n'water or even better (IMO) the MpH calculator. Be forewarned though that they will not do exactly as I laid out in the first paragraph, but they will accommodate salt addition inputs for the mash and sparge/kettle and give you an overall ppm for each ion that will not be strictly speaking true (the way you're thinking about it), but you'll get similar results to other people who use these tools all the time and who recommend specific profiles.

 

[Uke733]

My beer turns out really good to excellent doing this. I put ? ppm's of salts per gal. Lets say I need 8 gal total brewing liquor, 4- MT 4- HLT. I need 1 gram per gal of CaCL2 and .5 grams per gal of CaSO4 to get my numbers. I need 8 gal of liquor, so 8 grams of CaCL2 and 4 grams of CaSO4. I split that in half and add half to the MT and the other to the BK cause I don't want salts in my HLT. Oh yeah, I use RO water.

I appreciate the answer. I also do not want to put salts in my HLT, then use lactic to get the PH right. I also do not have a large enough HLT so I end up having to measure salts twice, then on back to back days I end up having to dump water to refill. Depending on the profile I end up wasting a lot of lactic acid, salts and time wasted PH testing, IMHO. Fly sparging with RO has some advantages I like but the one disadvantage is I'm not sure how to account for what ends up in the BK.

So if I'm reading your approach correctly you are essentially assuming most of the salts make it to the BK?

 

[YeastFeast]

I use EZ_water_calculator, which I find extremely easy to use. It has you divide your salts in half (about 1/2 MT, 1/2 boil). It has a starting water profile (I leave all zeros for RO water). Then add your grains and then everything is calculated for you. You can adjust salts to hit particular water profiles.

Guess my point is that someone smarter than me has done all the figuring, you just need to add the recommended salts to your mash and also to your boil.
Done & good enough for me.

 

[marc1]

I appreciate the answer. I also do not want to put salts in my HLT, then use lactic to get the PH right. I also do not have a large enough HLT so I end up having to measure salts twice, then on back to back days I end up having to dump water to refill. Depending on the profile I end up wasting a lot of lactic acid, salts and time wasted PH testing, IMHO. Fly sparging with RO has some advantages I like but the one disadvantage is I'm not sure how to account for what ends up in the BK.

So if I'm reading your approach correctly you are essentially assuming most of the salts make it to the BK?

If you are using RO water you only add lactic to the mash. There's no measuring and adjusting water pH.

 

[Uke733]

If you are using RO water you only add lactic to the mash. There's no measuring and adjusting water pH.

Understood, I was responding to Hotpepper13 and agreeing as to why we want to fly sparge RO water without salt additions.

 

[Uke733]

I use EZ_water_calculator, which I find extremely easy to use. It has you divide your salts in half (about 1/2 MT, 1/2 boil). It has a starting water profile (I leave all zeros for RO water). Then add your grains and then everything is calculated for you. You can adjust salts to hit particular water profiles.

Guess my point is that someone smarter than me has done all the figuring, you just need to add the recommended salts to your mash and also to your boil.
Done & good enough for me.

If you look up thread, there is a gentlemen that does not agree with your approach, it is why I am asking the question.

Adding salt to the HLT and MT is not the same as adding the same amount of salts to the MT and BK. If you are saying they are close enough, then fine I'll accept that.

 

[YeastFeast]

If you look up thread, there is a gentlemen that does not agree with your approach, it is why I am asking the question.

Adding salt to the HLT and MT is not the same as adding the same amount of salts to the MT and BK. If you are saying they are close enough, then fine I'll accept that.

I assuming the software I’m using (EZ_water_calculator) is estimating the total salts & lactic acid I need for that brewing session (mash & boil). I have no idea how much of the salts that are put in the mash make it over to the boil but I assume the amounts it estimates (mash & boil) is figured as part of the initial software calculation.
The salts that I then add to the boil make up for what didn’t make it into the boil (from the mash) + whatever the boil needs.

 

[Uke733]

I assuming the software I’m using (EZ_water_calculator) is estimating the total salts & lactic acid I need for that brewing session (mash & boil). I have no idea how much of the salts that are put in the mash make it over to the boil but I assume the amounts it estimates (mash & boil) is figured as part of the initial software calculation.
The salts that I then add to the boil make up for what didn’t make it into the boil (from the mash) + whatever the boil needs.

I don't think so, unless you are using a version I am unaware of, the salt additions in EZ_water_calculator are for the MT and HLT.

 

[YeastFeast]

I don't think so, unless you are using a version I am unaware of, the salt additions in EZ_water_calculator are for the MT and HLT.

See Step 4a of EZ_water 3.0.
The first line show amounts to add to the Mash water.
The second line show the additions to the boil. Yes, the line says “Sparge Water Additions” but the line below it says “add to boil” and adding it to the boil was what was explained to me in other articles & videos using this “software”.

I’m not trying to convince you to use EZ_water_calculator. I’m just explaining what I’ve been using for many years with good success.

Cheers

 

[marc1]

Understood, I was responding to Hotpepper13 and agreeing as to why we want to fly sparge RO water without salt additions.

Yes. And if you aren't adding alkalinity to the sparge water you don't need to adjust pH. So add your calcium chloride and gypsum to the RO sparge, no lactic needed unless it has alkalinity.

 

[Uke733]

See Step 4a of EZ_water 3.0.
The first line show amounts to add to the Mash water.
The second line show the additions to the boil. Yes, the line says “Sparge Water Additions” but the line below it says “add to boil” and adding it to the boil was what was explained to me in other articles & videos using this “software”.

I’m not trying to convince you to use EZ_water_calculator. I’m just explaining what I’ve been using for many years with good success.

Cheers

Ah, you are correct, I never noticed that before.

So what are you also adjusting the "Sparge Water" on row 8 to? Mash Water + Sparge Water = Final Post Boil Volume?

I appreciate you taking the time on this!

 

[YeastFeast]

Ah, you are correct, I never noticed that before.

So what are you also adjusting the "Sparge Water" on row 8 to? Mash Water + Sparge Water = Final Post Boil Volume?

I appreciate you taking the time on this!

Good question. I'm not adjusting those values, I'm literally inputing the total Mash water & total Sparge water which is just total water pre boil from MoreBeer's Sparge Water Calculator. I see what you're getting at though, how does the Sparge water factor in then and should "Sparge water" be "Boil volume" then??

 

[VikeMan]

So if I'm reading your approach correctly you are essentially assuming most of the salts make it to the BK?

Sort of. I'm saying don't worry about the ones that don't, because the people who have written/developed water profiles don't, and the designers of mash/water software don't. If you think (from tasting, subjectively) your final beer has not enough or too much of a particular flavor ion, tweak the profile next time. To me, that makes more sense than reinventing the meaning/math of Overall/Combined Water Profile, unless you're also going to develop your own software. But then, you'll be "speaking a different language" than other brewers.

...but I assume the amounts it estimates (mash & boil) is figured as part of the initial software calculation.
The salts that I then add to the boil make up for what didn’t make it into the boil (from the mash) + whatever the boil needs.

EZWater, like every other calculator I've seen (and indeed helped develop), doesn't "know" or assume anything about salts that don't make it to the boil kettle. But nobody historically has worried about that, and people have blissfully (and successfully) tweaked their target water profiles based on subjective results anyway. It works. When we try someone else's target profiles with our own process, we won't get exactly the same results. Of course, that goes for other "ingredients" also....thus the tweaking.

In an alternate universe somewhere, perhaps mash/water software did take a different course, yet users also developed and adapted their target profiles given the subjective results (much like in our universe). The "language" would consequently be different. e.g. "Overall/Combined Water Profile with 50 ppm Ca" would have a different meaning. The "best" target profile for a style would have different numbers (but essentially the same result on average). And it would all work out. Just like it does in our universe with our conventions.

 

[Uke733]

Sort of. I'm saying don't worry about the ones that don't, because the people who have written/developed water profiles don't, and the designers of mash/water software don't. If you think (from tasting, subjectively) your final beer has not enough or too much of a particular flavor ion, tweak the profile next time. To me, that makes more sense than reinventing the meaning/math of Overall/Combined Water Profile, unless you're also going to develop your own software. But then, you'll be "speaking a different language" than other brewers.

I find not adding salts to my HLT very useful, you can disagree for your equipment and preferences, all good.

When I brew a new recipe I need a starting point, that starting point is the language everyone speaks today, I'm not reinventing I simply want to consistently take their language and adapt it to my system, hope that makes sense.

To date, all of my recipes are 12 gallons post boil, I have 4 main water profiles and have been adding all salts to the BK only, making my salt additions always the same. It is convenient for sure but want to start adding some salts to the MT. Hence my original question.

 

[marc1]

I find not adding salts to my HLT very useful, you can disagree for your equipment and preferences, all good.

When I brew a new recipe I need a starting point, that starting point is the language everyone speaks today, I'm not reinventing I simply want to consistently take their language and adapt it to my system, hope that makes sense.

To date, all of my recipes are 12 gallons post boil, I have 4 main water profiles and have been adding all salts to the BK only, making my salt additions always the same. It is convenient for sure but want to start adding some salts to the MT. Hence my original question.

OK, so add all the salts to the mash. That will probably be most equivalent to what other people do.
If adding them all to the mash drops the predicted mash pH too low, add as much as you can, and put the remainder in the sparge, or if for whatever reason that's too difficult, add the remaining to the boil.
If you have an addition that's solely for mash pH (eg, baking soda for a very dark beer, or lactic acid for a light beer) don't add that anywhere else, only put it in the mash.
Taste and adjust for future brews.

 

[Happy Tails Brewing]

Add them according to water volume. EI If you are using 6 gallons of water to mash and 4 gallons of sparge(fill in your own number). You have 10 gallons of water 4 mash + 6 Sparge = 10. 60% is mash 6/10, and 40% is Sparge 4/10. If your water calculator says to add 4 grams, add 4 * 60% = 2.4 grams to the mash and 4 * 40% = 1.6 grams to the boil. This is the same as adding 4 grams to a full volume batch. Will some not make it to your boil kettle, yes, but for BIAB some of the salts stay with the grain, and don’t make it into the boil either. These should be very close to each other.

By sparge I do not mean what is in your HLT, I mean how much sparge water do you need to sparge with. You have your total volume in your kettle pre boil. You take that number less the volume you added to the mash, and add in grain absorption. Since some of the water in your mash tun will stay will your grain and not make it to your boil kettle. That difference is the amount of sparge water you will need.

 

[hottpeper13]

In ALL the schooling I've taken there is an emphasis on getting enough calcium in the mash. Most are saying 50 ppm's will be enough to precipitate out oxylates and carry over into the boil kettle for yeast health. My brewing liquor profiles come from Palmer and Kaminski Water book. They start on page 156, no mention of carry over of any salt just the ppm range for the style. Also on pages 152-153 are the measured ppm's in grams per gal or liter. My suggestion is to read the book, quit using calculators and use your head.

Most important to remember is the water of a certain city or area is most likely treated in some way. Think Dortmunder.

 

[Uke733]

My suggestion is to read the book, quit using calculators and use your head.

Yep have that book and there is nothing in it that deals with this topic.

Thanks for advising me to use my head.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

@Happy Tails Brewing 's example is exactly what I do and have done for quite some time.

 

[Peebee]

In ALL the schooling I've taken there is an emphasis on getting enough calcium in the mash. Most are saying 50 ppm's will be enough to precipitate out oxylates and carry over into the boil kettle for yeast health. ...

You are getting dangerously close to my favourite "rant of the moment". Careful, there are some around here that consider it heresy and can't see these comments of mine because they've put me (even being instructed to!) into their "Ignore List". The subject is currently absorbing most of my time getting it into a useable format. I'm delighted that there are some, like you (and @Uke733, the thread's original poster), who's minds are inquiring enough to question what's currently going on:

PPM (parts-per-million) isn't even an "explicit" amount. It's a "concentration". More obvious if you think of the "million" as water and the "parts" as milligrams ... you then have "mg/L" (milligrams-per-litre ... the only time "ppm" and "mg/L" are close enough to think of as the same). "Oxalate" is coming from the grain and malt. Malt, which is added to the wort as an "explicit" amount. The water amount, and therefore it's ppm of calcium is added as a random amount depending on the kit the brewer uses. Fortunately, if you use a "water calculator" it converts the "ppm" to an "explicit" amount (grams, ounces, whatever).

Why's this important? ... Take an "average" brewer using an "average" mashtun/sparge arrangement. This brewer has figured he needs to add so much calcium salt to his mash (using RO water as a base). The brewer passes that recipe to a fellow brewer using a BIAB no-sparge technique. The first brewer calculated the calcium water additions using the recommended "50ppm". The BIAB brewer uses the recipe's "calcium" salt addition (in grams, ounces, whatever). This is fine, as long as he or she doesn't work out they've only added about "25ppm" of calcium.


Don't mix measurement units! To avoid any confusion, I'm trying to develop a method to split the calcium into a "normalized" amount to add to the mash (it relates to the fixed amount of grain), and the rest of the calcium (and other salts) to add later (sparge or boil ... where "ppm" is still relevant because it relates to all the beer).

We have quite recently found we can manipulate water to our advantage. So, we don't need to persist with these "compromise" techniques of dealing with water. The old ways are not inaccurate as long as you're careful (and who is?) but can result in huge additions of alkalinity adjustments to keep under control.

 

[hottpeper13]

I'm a retired millwright so not a chemist. When I look at the info in the Water book I see ppm concentrations per gal or liter, the grain doesn't play a roll in that.

And to the original poster, in 12 years and 3 schools this is the first time I've heard anyone ask or talk about it. I think you just developed a new rabbit hole that won't matter.

 

[Uke733]

I'm a retired millwright so not a chemist. When I look at the info in the Water book I see ppm concentrations per gal or liter, the grain doesn't play a roll in that.

And to the original poster, in 12 years and 3 schools this is the first time I've heard anyone ask or talk about it. I think you just developed a new rabbit hole that won't matter.

You seem easily perturbed, toughen up, this is supposed to be fun.

I see dozens of people on this forum adding salts directly to the BK, not sure why asking how they calculate it makes my questions so revolutionary....

 

[mabrungard]

No, not all the Ca and Mg would make it from the tun to the kettle since they're involved in reactions in the mash and are precipitated there. That's not a big deal since the compounds in wort provide ALL the calcium and magnesium needed for good yeast growth. Pure distilled water can be used for mashing and the wort will still nourish the yeast, but it won't perform as well as if calcium, magnesium, and zinc were present. The need for 50 ppm or more calcium in the kettle is NOT factual. The only problem with having low dissolved calcium in the wort is that the yeast won't flocculate as readily in the fermenter and trub won't precipitate as strongly in the kettle. That is actually a good and desirable thing when brewing with lager yeast and a less good thing when dealing with ale yeast. The lagering phase makes up for the slow flocculation.

An important aspect in mashing chemistry is that although cations like Ca and Mg get tied up and lost from the wort, the anions like SO4 and Cl are very likely to make it through into the kettle with the wort.