Saison-Wyeast 3724--Question

[jturie]

I brewed a Rye Saison about 4 weeks ago (yeah I'm a procrastinator--sue me) and pitched a smackpack of 3724 (OG was 1055, too lazy to make a starter). It started cranking bigtime in about 8 hours, fermented vigorously for about a week, and then slowed down. Nearly 4 weeks later, it's still throwing about one bubble per every 2-3 seconds. Fermented initially at 80F, dropped to 75 for last couple of weeks.

I checked the gravity about 10 days ago and it was at 1028!!!! Just checked it a few minutes ago and it is now about 1014. Beersmith estimates an FG of 1011, but that's not a huge deal since my starting gravity was about 5 points above Beersmith's estimate.

Here's my question (finally). This is my first time using any Belgian strain. Do they tend to have drawn out fermentations? I've never had active fermentation so long after pitching. I'm hesitant to leave it on the yeast any longer. My sample tastes good--no "yeasty-"/off-flavors.

What do y'all think: keg it or let it sit more?

 

[stpug]

Bubbles aren't important. What's important is that the gravity doesn't change over time any more. That particular strain of yeast can slow WAYYY down at the end and take it's time finishing up those last several points. You don't want this batch to be in bottles while that's happening. I would personally get another gravity reading in another week and see if it's stabilized.

Generally speaking, saisons finish with higher attenuation than the manufacturer suggests, which is partly due to lower mash temps and the use of sugar. Providing a recipe would help us estimate what your actual FG should be close to. An estimated 1.011 even sounds potentially high; an actual 1.014 sounds pretty high for a saison and 3724; but again, a recipe and mash temp (if all grain) would help clear things up.

Edit: Just caught the "keg it" part. In a keg it's more flexible since you can release excess pressure if it builds but I still would aim for FG prior to kegging if at all possible.

 

[tagz]

Crank up the temp and let it sit. That strain is notorious or being slow to finish.

 

[slarkin712]

You picked a particular trying strain to work with for your first Belgian. 3724 is known to stall at a gravity of 1.035 after an initial vigorous fermentation. High temperature(in the 80F's and 90F's) can help to avoid this stalling, but not always. I've used this yeast on 4 different batches, and every time I have had it stall or significantly slow at 1.035. I've always ramped temperatures up into the low 90's. Eventually the batch finished, sometimes taking 4-5 weeks. You should definitely leave the beer on the yeast and let it finish. This yeast can take the gravity down to 1.004, and maybe even lower. Let it sit and check the gravity in a week or so. When the gravity finally stabilizes for 3-4 days it will be ready to keg, bottle, or move off the yeast.

 

[invivoSaccharomyces]

Let it go. This strain likes to take a break in the middle of fermenting, but it will eventually attenuate down to 1.006 or lower (occasionally it's been known to get below 1.000).

Swirl your carboy to get some of the yeast back into solution, put it someplace warm (it'll be fine up to 95 degrees), and let it ride a few more days. Then check the gravity again.

 

[Pilgarlic]

Four weeks is no issue. My last fermentation with this yeast was, I think, 75 days in primary. No autolysis, and it continued to drop all the way. You'll be glad you squeezed those last few points of attenuation out of the yeast. Let it dry out until it stops.

As to whether Belgian yeasts generally take a long time to finish, no. Many do, but you can't generalize. I've had Wyeast's French Saison go to 1.002 in five days. Belgian yeast fermentation performance is all over the board. You just have to learn to follow their lead, in my experience.

 

[jturie]

Yikes. Thanks for the responses. I forgot to mention I used 1 lb of turbinado (the recipe was from a recent BYO mag). The taste wasn't as dry as commercial saisons I've had, so I was suspicious.

I'll throw on my brew belt and crank up the temp.

 

[bethebrew]

Yikes. Thanks for the responses. I forgot to mention I used 1 lb of turbinado (the recipe was from a recent BYO mag). The taste wasn't as dry as commercial saisons I've had, so I was suspicious.

I'll throw on my brew belt and crank up the temp.

You could have used 3711, and been done by now and drinking beer.

 

[FreddyMar3]

I agree with cranking up the temp. Jamil and Palmer suggests starting lower, like 72 and gradually raising it to 80 towards the end of fermentation. That's what I did for mine this summer and I was able to get into single digits with no problem.

 

[jturie]

You could have used 3711, and been done by now and drinking beer.

Lesson learned. I'll brew another saison in the spring (when it's SUPPOSED to be done--just got a little behind this year. So many beer styles, so little time.......)

 

[bethebrew]

Lesson learned. I'll brew another saison in the spring (when it's SUPPOSED to be done--just got a little behind this year. So many beer styles, so little time.......)

I'm brewing two of them 10 gallons split into 5s. One with a seriously underpitched, and old 3711. The other, a very overpitched, fresh from the factory 3726.

Winner Front Line.

3711.

I heated the hell out of them both, want them to FINISH!

 

[Pilgarlic]

I'm brewing two of them 10 gallons split into 5s. One with a seriously underpitched, and old 3711. The other, a very overpitched, fresh from the factory 3726.

Winner Front Line.

3711.

I heated the hell out of them both, want them to FINISH!

Many believe that the two yeasts yield different enough beers that one might not want to consider them substitutable.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/wyeast-3711-v-3724-tasting-notes-187360/

 

[stpug]

bethebrew actually posted 3726 (Farmhouse Ale) which is different than 3724 (Belgian Saison). I have personally found Farmhouse Ale to produce a very fruity, less spicy, fairly tart result when fermented in the mid- to upper-80s, which would be significantly different than the more spicy, less tart 3711, so I definitely see how they could be very different.

 

[bethebrew]

Many believe that the two yeasts yield different enough beers that one might not want to consider them substitutable.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/wyeast-3711-v-3724-tasting-notes-187360/

Well so be it but I am doing a 3711 vs. 3726 comparison.

All bets are off!

Winner Front Line!

 

[bethebrew]

bethebrew actually posted 3726 (Farmhouse Ale) which is different than 3724 (Belgian Saison). I have personally found Farmhouse Ale to produce a very fruity, less spicy, fairly tart result when fermented in the mid- to upper-80s, which would be significantly different than the more spicy, less tart 3711, so I definitely see how they could be very different.

Wow bro you nailed it on the head. More tart, and less spicy. Perfect description.

3711 cleaner, more spicy, less tart.

The bulk of the ferment for my batch was mid to high 60s and a little low 70s...

 

[Lopsy]

This yeast is famous for stalled fermentations (1.035SG typically as wyeast says themselves). We are making a Belgian Saison right now that stalled at 1.033 at week 4 and we ramped it from 68 to 90!! It's been at 90 for 2 weeks now and dropped about 1 point per week. Patience my friend.

 

[jturie]

Yep, I got it cranked up to about 81 right now and the pace of fermentation has picked up significantly. Based on my taste earlier today, 3724 is giving a moderately tart but not very spicy taste.

I think a split 10 gallon batch with 3711 and 3726 sounds like a really great idea. Put it on the ever-growing project list.

 

[stpug]

I cannot track down the original source but I believe it was direct from wyeast that said, when using 3724: [paraphrased] "Pitch at 90F and maintain that temperature throughout the entire fermentation. It will ferment quickly and fully to single digits within about four days. If your fermentation temperature drops then be prepared for a long, slow fermentation to completion that could take months to finish."

I suspect that once fermentation has slowed, you are in it for the long haul - several weeks to FG no matter what temperature above room temperature you use. I WILL find the source and post the link when I find it.

3787 is another yeast that is said to do something similar (but different). Once you drop temp on 3787 it will simply crash out and there's no rousing it. But I digress...

 

[stpug]

Found what I was remembering and, as usual, it was only partly correct

Here's the quote:

My [Brian's] note to them............

I was reading an article on Belgian Saisons and was wondering if your yeast exhibits the same characteristics.

" Yeast character is the single most important flavor component in any beer, especially a Saison. Many homebrewers have successfully cultured yeast from the dregs of a bottle-conditioned beer like Saison Dupont, and there are also Saison yeasts available from White Labs and WYeast.
Fermentation temperatures for this beer are shockingly high, and require a leap of faith by brewers conditioned to never ferment anything above 70°. Saison Dupont ferments at around 90°, give or take a few degrees. In fact, if you are squeamish about fermenting this high, be prepared to wait weeks for primary fermentation to complete, as this yeast is notoriously sluggish at lower temperatures.
If it does conk out on you, don't panic, simply get it as warm as is possible (80° to 90°), and prepare to wait. Rousing, or stirring up the yeast sometimes helps, but not always. The yeast will work, but very slowly. Sometimes these beers can take three to four weeks to ferment out, but that's the price we pay for working with such an idiosyncratic yeast. It is worth it, as you will see and taste in the glorious resulting beer. "

I just want to make sure that I get a complete fermentation when using it as it will probably be fermented at around 75 degrees or will I have to I will heat my fermenter to get it up into the 80-90 degree range? Any insight on this will be helpful as it is a Community Brew for a forum and I will make sure your response gets posted.

Their [Wyeast's] reply:

Brian,

This quote you listed speaks the truth exactly. If you cannot run your ferment at 90 with the Dupont strain, then plan on a very long and drawn out primary (weeks to a couple of months). If you can ferment at 90, then it will finish (and finish very complete) within days. A 75 degree F ferment could take a couple of months.

The key is to ferment at 90 from the start. Starting cool and then having to heat the brew later on to keep the ferment from slowing can have adverse effects on the beer. Prolonged fermentation at high temps can lead to oxidation and off flavors.

I hope this helps. As I said before, the recommendations in the quote are right on with what we recommend.

Please let me know if you have other questions.

Jess Caudill
Brewer/Microbiologist
Wyeast Laboratories

Here's the source link: http://www.brewingkb.com/homebrewin...-Of-Wyeast-3726-Farmhouse-Ale-Yeast-1593.html

The original source link has a title referring to 3726 (Farmhouse Ale; i.e. a different strain than what was used in this thread), however Brian's email to Wyeast was non-specific and referenced Saison Dupot (i.e. Wyeast 3724). Wyeast's reply was in regards to saison dupont (3724) so I believe their recommendations would still hold true to the OP's situation.

Hope this helps, or is at least a little informative. I read this post prior to brewing my first saison so when I started with 3726 I pitched at 75F and was up to 90 within 24 hours (a session saison) and let me tell you that it was delicious (and kegged within 6-7 days ).

 

[DannPM]

3724 is tough to attenuate out. I took mine to 87-90F to finish it out where I wanted (1.001)

 

[bethebrew]

Found what I was remembering and, as usual, it was only partly correct

Here's the quote:


Here's the source link: http://www.brewingkb.com/homebrewin...-Of-Wyeast-3726-Farmhouse-Ale-Yeast-1593.html

The original source link has a title referring to 3726 (Farmhouse Ale; i.e. a different strain than what was used in this thread), however Brian's email to Wyeast was non-specific and referenced Saison Dupot (i.e. Wyeast 3724). Wyeast's reply was in regards to saison dupont (3724) so I believe their recommendations would still hold true to the OP's situation.

Hope this helps, or is at least a little informative. I read this post prior to brewing my first saison so when I started with 3726 I pitched at 75F and was up to 90 within 24 hours (a session saison) and let me tell you that it was delicious (and kegged within 6-7 days ).

Thanks for the link.

Well to clarify, I started the ferment under 70 F and held it there for a couple of days in a water bath. The 3726 went off very fast, it was a lot of yeast. And it really didn't "stall" from 1.049 until 1.014. Anyway seems a lot colder temp tolerant than the 3724, and doesn't have that stalling either.

 

[jturie]

Thanks to all who encouraged me to stay the course. Got the temp up to 82 and let it go. Just tested a few minutes ago, and it's at 1.002!!! Perfect pale color, clear as a bell. The sample tasted great...nice spiciness but not overwhelming. Kegging it tonight.

 

[Pilgarlic]

Congrats. Nice finish.

 

[The542]

That is a nice finish!

Call me crazy, but I love that yeast. Wrap the carboy with a fermwrap, bump it up a couple degrees a day on the Johnson till it hits 90*, then keep it there for a month and it yields gold every summer.

 

[rappell]

You should consider bottle conditioning some with priming sugar and some yeast. In two months the bottled brew will be amazing!!!!!!!

 

[jturie]

You should consider bottle conditioning some with priming sugar and some yeast. In two months the bottled brew will be amazing!!!!!!!

Thinking about doing that with every batch I make just to see how they age. Just need to buy bottles....caps....capper.....

 

[rappell]

I just started cold crash on a batch that took 3 weeks to go from 1050 to 1003. That's 93.7% attenuation. Just how a saison should be. Will bottle with 3.75 oz corn sugar and 4 oz of yeast this weekend. YMMV! Then condition for 3 weeks at 75. By the way, I fermented @ 85 degrees.

 

[jturie]

I just started cold crash on a batch that took 3 weeks to go from 1050 to 1003. That's 93.7% attenuation. Just how a saison should be. Will bottle with 3.75 oz corn sugar and 4 oz of yeast this weekend. YMMV! Then condition for 3 weeks at 75. By the way, I fermented @ 85 degrees.

That's a great finish too. I just tapped my first pint after 4 days of force carbing. Still needs more carbonation, but tastes fantastic and the second pint poured nice and bright. Can't wait until this mellows out in a couple of weeks, assuming it lasts that long.

Good luck.