Safale US-05 near 72 hours and no activity

[beauvafr]

I have pitched both ways with this yeast. Same lag time. Finishes at the same time.
I like the idea of dry pitching. Less chance of the introduction of infections (although I've never had an infection due to re-hydrating.)

Interesting! Do you pitch one pouch for a 5 gallons?

 

[Jacinthebox]

yup...one pack

 

[Jacinthebox]

Do what you like and what works for you.

The science is in on this issue and it's been covered on multiple threads as well as other websites and books. You stress the yeast substantially and kill up to half of the cells you pitch when you don't properly rehydrate, plain and simple. You'll still make beer though, just like when you direct pitch a vial with no starter. If you are going to spend time crafting a recipe, following best practices in making your wort with quality ingredients, and wait as long as you need to in order to have a delicious home brew, I just don't understand why someone wouldn't do the best thing for their yeast. They are what makes the beer, after all. That's ok though, I don't need to understand. As long as you know what happens pitching dry vs rehydrating, the choice is yours and so is the beer.

the us-05 pack says to sprinkle on wort...so I guess they think it's ok to do so???

it has worked out both ways

 

[g-star]

the us-05 pack says to sprinkle on wort...so I guess they think it's ok to do so??? it has worked out both ways

Why is this topic so difficult for some to grasp?

The package instructions are made to be idiot-proof b/c it is a product designed for amateurs. Dry-pitching will make beer, but it is not optimal practice for yeast health and viability. This is not debatable and has been proven out by experiment.

 

[Hello]

US-05 in homebrew form - instructions say to sprinkle into wort.
US-05 in professional brewer form - instructions say must be properly rehydrated.
Interesting double standard

Not sure it's a double standard so much as the answers here versus the answers there aren't the same. As the guy below said, dry yeast pitched without rehydrating will make beer all the same. Even as a new brewer though, rehydrating is what I do. The LHBS says I can just pitch; I do not.

Why is this topic so difficult for some to grasp?

The package instructions are made to be idiot-proof b/c it is a product designed for amateurs. Dry-pitching will make beer, but it is not optimal practice for yeast health and viability. This is not debatable and has been proven out by experiment.

Well, I don't know if it is fair to day that dry yeast is a product designed for amateurs. That seems a bit like you're saying that the use of dry yeast completely shows someone's lack of skill and knowledge.

That said, rehydration of yeast to me is the default. I want to give the yeast as much chance as possible to survive.

 

[Jacinthebox]

Why is this topic so difficult for some to grasp?

The package instructions are made to be idiot-proof b/c it is a product designed for amateurs. Dry-pitching will make beer, but it is not optimal practice for yeast health and viability. This is not debatable and has been proven out by experiment.

who is having a difficult time grasping this?

do what you want, others will do the same...good beer is the end result, so who really cares?

Science be damn'd, I like to let Jebus take the wheel

 

[midfielder5]

... proofing dry yeast is pretty common, especially to bakers. But as far as brewing goes my LHBS owner advised me to do it and Palmer mentions it in How To Brew

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-5.html

First paragraph.

In the updated paper book, Palmer admits that in his first edition (ie the online freebie version) he gave bad advice to add sugar to proof the yeast.

 

[seckert]

Has anyone ever taken say a 10 gal batch split it between 2 ferm vessels and pitched a pack straight in one, while rehydrating the other pack before pitching then seeing if there is a difference? I have heard so much about rehydrating vs not needing to. yet i have never had a side by side comparision. same batch with the only variable being the yeast. If so i would like to hear what those results were.

 

[boydster]

the us-05 pack says to sprinkle on wort...so I guess they think it's ok to do so???

it has worked out both ways

They acknowledge that it will make beer if you just sprinkle it into the wort. The vials from WL and the smack packs from Wyeast also say you can pitch them without a starter. Again, it will make beer. Neither of those suggestions is optimal.

There just simply is no debate about what happens when you sprinkle dry yeast into wort. You kill a large percentage of them.

If your recipe calls for an ounce of Cascade hops at 20 minutes, do you toss in half an ounce of old, dried up, stale hops you found loose underneath your refrigerator the last time you cleaned under there and just say "eff it, this will be good enough"? Of course not. Why would you exercise what is essentially the same mentality when it comes to the yeast?

From Fermentis (http://www.brewwithfermentis.com/tips-tricks/yeast-rehydration/):

Before dry yeast can start fermenting, they need to absorb the water they lost during the drying process.
Yeasts are living organisms and rehydration temperature is critical for good yeast performance.
Fermentis recommends that top fermenting (ale) yeasts are rehydrated at a temperature between 25-29°C (77-84°F) and that bottom fermenting yeasts (lager) are rehydrated at a temperature range of 21-25°C (69-77°F).
Rehydration is done in a vessel outside the fermentor. The objective is to reduce the lag phase : the time necessary for the yeasts to start fermenting sugars to alcohol after inoculating the wort.
Rehydration is a simple procedure.

From Danstar (http://www.danstaryeast.com/about/frequently-asked-questions):

Why is rehydrating the dry yeast before pitching important?

Dry beer yeast needs to be reconstituted in a gentle way. During rehydration the cell membrane undergoes changes which can be lethal to yeast. In order to reconstitute the yeast as gently as possible (and minimize/avoid any damage) yeast producers developed specific rehydration procedures. Although most dry beer yeast will work if pitched directly into wort, it is recommended to follow the rehydration instructions to insure the optimum performance of the yeast.

Here is yet another resource about proper handling of dry yeast, from Dr. Clayton Cone: http://home.comcast.net/~mzapx1/FAQ/Rehydrate.pdf

Every strain of yeast has its own optimum rehydration temperature - all of them range between 95 F to 105F (most of them closer to 105°F). The dried yeast cell wall is fragile and it is the first few minutes (possibly seconds) of rehydration that the warm temperature is critical while it is reconstituting its cell wall structure. As you drop the initial temperature of the water from 95 to 85 or 75 or 65F the yeast leached out more and more of its insides damaging the each cell. The yeast viability also drops proportionally. At 95 - 105 F, there is 100% recovery of the viable dry yeast. At 60F, there can be as much as 60% dead cells. The water should be tap water with the normal amount of hardness present. The hardness is essential for good recovery: 250 -500 ppm hardness is ideal. This means that deionized or distilled water should not be used. Ideally, the warm rehydration water should contain about 0.5 - 1.0% yeast extract.

For the initial few minutes (perhaps seconds) of rehydration, the yeast cell wall cannot differentiate what passes through the wall. Toxic materials like sprays, hops, SO2 and sugars in high levels, that the yeast normally can selectively keep from passing through its cell wall rush right in and seriously damage the cells. The moment that the cell wall is properly reconstituted, the yeast can then regulate what goes in and out of the cell. That is why we hesitate to recommend rehydration in wort or must. Very dilute wort seems to be OK.

I am still of the "Do what you like" mindset, because you have to drink your beer and not me. That said, you really shouldn't be advising people to do something that is a proven bad practice and telling them it doesn't make a difference. It does make a difference.

 

[Jacinthebox]

They acknowledge that it will make beer if you just sprinkle it into the wort. The vials from WL and the smack packs from Wyeast also say you can pitch them without a starter. Again, it will make beer. Neither of those suggestions is optimal.

There just simply is no debate about what happens when you sprinkle dry yeast into wort. You kill a large percentage of them.

If your recipe calls for an ounce of Cascade hops at 20 minutes, do you toss in half an ounce of old, dried up, stale hops you found loose underneath your refrigerator the last time you cleaned under there and just say "eff it, this will be good enough"? Of course not. Why would you exercise what is essentially the same mentality when it comes to the yeast?

From Fermentis (http://www.brewwithfermentis.com/tips-tricks/yeast-rehydration/):


From Danstar (http://www.danstaryeast.com/about/frequently-asked-questions):


Here is yet another resource about proper handling of dry yeast, from Dr. Clayton Cone: http://home.comcast.net/~mzapx1/FAQ/Rehydrate.pdf


I am still of the "Do what you like" mindset, because you have to drink your beer and not me. That said, you really shouldn't be advising people to do something that is a proven bad practice and telling them it doesn't make a difference. It does make a difference.

I advised that I have done both...both had great results...lag time was the same, and both beer finished at the same time and FG.

I didn't advise anything that the company didn't already advised to do.

not really getting how using old dried up hops is anywhere near the same as using yeast as instructed.

I have never made a starter, but I have pitched both dry and rehydrated.

where are the bodies (bad beer)?

relax, i'm a homebrewer...its an art, and a science...

 

[boydster]

not really getting how using old dried up hops is anywhere near the same as using yeast as instructed.

Because you would be using half the amount and it is in less-than-optimal condition. And if you read the links I posted, you'll see the manufacturers clearly state that the yeast should be rehydrated before pitching.

For those that want to read empirical evidence of how much dry yeast is impacted by rehydrating in water vs. pitching dry, Sean Terril did cell counts and posted results here: http://seanterrill.com/2011/04/01/dry-yeast-viability/

The cell die-off leaves you with an under-pitched beer, and he posted results of pitch rate experiments here: http://seanterrill.com/2010/05/09/yeast-pitching-rate-results/

 

[Jacinthebox]

have you done both, and you noticed a difference in a 5 gal batch?

I'm not saying that whitecoats are wrong by any means...I'm going with my own experiences.

If I thought that my beer would turn out bad, or I could make it better, I would do it. I mash for 90min, and I boil for 90min...so after all of that work, I wouldn't do something that I felt would cause the beer to fall short.

I just haven't had any differences in the beer I made.

 

[boydster]

I generally refrain from anecdotal evidence as a means of offering proof, especially when there is empirical data to show it.

But......

Yes, I have done both and noticed a substantial improvement in my beers. When I first started brewing, I never rehydrated. I made beer that was good; very drinkable and enjoyable. When I started learning about rehydrating, I tried it and was blown away by how such a small step could improve my beer. Example: I recently remade a pale ale that was one of my first recipes, and the first time I made it I didn't rehydrate. It was good the first time, but it was great this most recent time. The yeast had a more pronounced flavor in the first batch, which is not at all what I was going for in an APA. Usually you use 05 because you don't want a pronounced yeast profile. The way to achieve that consistently is by rehydrating, pitching the right number of cells, and controlling fermentation temps.

I've remade plenty of my early recipes, and they all taste better when I add rehydrated yeast, but that APA was the most improved.

There are plenty of reasons that yeast will produce flavor compounds, though, and those batches were years apart so it can be very correctly argued that extenuating or unknown circumstances could be the reason for the difference. Further, no one here can say they know my ability to control those conditions. That is where anecdotes break down, and why we should put some stock in what the "whitecoats" tell us, especially when what they say is in agreement with so many other anecdotes from other brewers.

 

[Jacinthebox]

there are many factors that have capacity to effect the character development of a brew.
wort temp while pitching, ferm temps, brewers technique/experience...

Again I will say it...I have pitched both ways, and will continue to (I'm not anti rehyd), and I have not have any noticable differences in the beer.
side by side apa's and irish red ales...no difference has been noticed by the drinkers. If there was a difference/improvement that I noticed...I would make the change...I'm not sure why my methods bother you so much.

to each their own.

 

[boydster]

there are many factors that have capacity to effect the character development of a brew.
wort temp while pitching, ferm temps, brewers technique/experience...

^This is exactly why I said anecdotal evidence is not the way to try and prove one way or the other. Sean Terril did side-by-side controlled tests that I linked to, and you seem to discount him as a "whitecoat" whose work doesn't have any bearing on real-world brewing.

It's not that your method bothers me, it's encouraging someone to use what has been shown to be a poor practice that bothers me. The references I have posted are enough for anyone to be able to make their own decision though, so OP I apologize for threadjacking you and I'll make my exit now.

 

[g-star]

Science be damn'd, I like to let Jebus take the wheel

Well, your previous posts and approach to brewing make a lot more sense now. Enjoy your homebrew.

 

[davygoat2]

I bake bread and just recently started brewing. My bread rises better when I rehydrate without the sugar in the water. Reading up for brewing verified this IMHO. The yeast aren't ready for the sugar just yet, Think waking up your 6yo and force feeding him oatmeal with a syringe. I see the simplicity of pitching yeast directly on the wort, this eliminates the infection factor. They will wake up but they will need to reproduce longer to make up for the ones that don't survive the pitch. I would guess that the longer the Yeast takes to consume all the oxygen in the wort the more oxidation can occur. More yeast shorter time till they go after the sugars. Either way beer happens, but I'l prefer to boil my water to hydrate the yeast. Table sugar isn't what they will feed on so why confuse them.
They are only single cells, you can only expect so much!!

 

[Jacinthebox]

Well, your previous posts and approach to brewing make a lot more sense now. Enjoy your homebrew.

Oh you got me. That'll learn me to post my experiences.


And obviously the let jebus statement was an attempt to lighten the mood.
I'm okay with my approach, feel sorry that some can not relax a bit and let others do their thing. There is more than one way to do something.


Perhaps next time, the op can just ask you directly instead of posting it up and having others reply with the wrong experiences.

 

[Jacinthebox]

Yeast Nazi's

Not once did I say that you were wrong.
I explained what I do. It works for me.
I didn't suggest that the links you provided were incorrect.

 

[g-star]

I'm okay with my approach, feel sorry that some can not relax a bit and let others do their thing. There is more than one way to do something.

You're free to be willfully ignorant, but the consequences are that those flawed approaches will be exposed for all their faults when debated in a public forum.

The "it works for me" statement is really just anecdotal chatter that must be taken with a grain of salt. It is the flimsiest way to make a argument.

 

[Denny's Evil Concoctions]

Case in point. Trappiste breweries purposely under pitch to get a more dramtic estery profile. So.. underpitching = esters = not rehydrating yeast pack. Besides under pitching, some of the yeastvthat survives is not healthy and can act in odd ways. This is somewhat offset by increased oxygenation.

Vessal size and shape also effects yeast due to osmotic pressure differances.

Really.. are you guys seriously that lazy?

Read a brewing science book.

 

[snowtires]

I love us05.
I pitch directly on top of aerated wort. In a little pile that floats on the foam. It is my thinking that this is kind of like directly pitching in the most gentile way. As the beer bubbles slowly rehydrate a little at a time.

 

[Jacinthebox]

You're free to be willfully ignorant, but the consequences are that those flawed approaches will be exposed for all their faults when debated in a public forum.

The "it works for me" statement is really just anecdotal chatter that must be taken with a grain of salt. It is the flimsiest way to make a argument.

Thank you for making the Internet a better place. I will try harder next time.

For the record, my argument was that I do it both ways, and the beer has turned out great.

I think I will mash in a brew, rather than debate on the Internet.

 

[davygoat2]

First on Race Day! vs Found on Road Dead.
Mostly Old Parts and Rust vs More Outrageous Power At Redline!
Lighten up Francis!!