Safale 34/70 temps

[redrocker652002]

OK, so tomorrow is brew day and I was going over my notes. First time using this yeast and the recipe I have, thread started Italian Pilsner, says the yeast should be fermented at about 68 degrees for 7 days. Just fooling around because I cannot sleep and I am seeing the range for this yeast is in the high 40's mid 50's. Is there a reason this brewer would ferment it at such a higher temp? I have to go back and watch the Youtube vid again to see why he does it so high.

 

[dmtaylor]

Brulosophy has run experiments that in their experience, tasters could not taste a difference when fermented warm or cold. That finding took the world by storm and now millions of homebrewers are trying to ferment lagers warm, and not just with W-34/70 but with any lager strain under the sun. Myself included. I'm enjoying very much the results from my lagers fermented warm using Diamond, S-189, and several liquid strains as well. The old fuddie-duddies who say "lagers need to be fermented cold or you will get too much esters" are largely being questioned and maybe debunked.

 

[FloppyKnockers]

34/70 is very temp freindly. I have some recipes I do at room temp with 34/70 when I want a clean ale kinda taste. I've also fermented high, crashed, lagered, fined, and kegged with no difference in taste.

 

[redrocker652002]

Great, thanks all. So, this puts another question into my head. If warm fermentation is ok with these yeasts why 2 packets then? I thought the reason for 2 packets was because it was being fermented colder it needed two to offset the lack of temp? My thought it to pitch it around 60 and let it rise to between 65 and 68 and hold it there until complete. Either keg or bottle and let it rest at room temp for another week after that and start giving it a try from there. Good plan?

 

[MaxStout]

Good question. I've always pitched 2, as a knee-jerk lager thing. But if you're fermenting in the 60s, maybe you can do fine with one.

I have used 34/70 a number of times and it's very forgiving of warmer temps. It's my all-purpose lager strain.

 

[redrocker652002]

I bought 2 packets and am going to pitch them both. Most of the advice I have been given is to pitch 2 so I am going with that. Going to put a towel under my fermenter just in case. LOL.

Also, going to try my first full volume, no sparge brew. I have to adjust my batch volume a bit as I screwed up and did not buy quite enough grain. But I am going from about 6 gallon batch volume to about 5.5 gallon. As long as I get about 5 gallons in the keg, I am ok with it.

 

[hilljack13]

I must be doing something wrong. I keep getting off flavors with 34/70 no matter what temperature. Once, after a warm ferment, and several weeks conditioning, the off flavor went away. There was no taste in the beer either. Watered down, but was supposed to be 6%+. I did the job on that part. I have an oktoberfest clone conditioning now. We'll see how that turns out, but samples are not good.

 

[ncbrewer]

Fermentis reported on a study (https://fermentis.com/en/news/fermentation/rediscover-saflager-w-34-70/) where they tested 34/70 fermented at various temperatures, including 20C (68F). Their conclusion was:

Our study has demonstrated the constant neutral character of SafLager™ W-34/70 over different fermentation conditions, including higher temperatures. This yeast remains very robust and stable over many different conditions.

The most important point for the brewers is this: SafLager™ W-34/70 can ensure both a faster and neutral fermentation profile at higher temperatures. The same neutral beer in less time in the fermentation tank.

 

[InspectorJon]

There is an epically long warm fermented lager thread here that discusses this in encyclopedic detail. It seems one can pitch at ale rates when fermented warmer. This ale temperature fermentation works well with some lager yeasts, but not all. It has worked for me. I’m enjoying a “cold IPA” now, fermented at 66-68F then finished at 72 using 34/70. One pack in a 4 gallon batch. It’s one of the best beers I have ever made.

 

[dmtaylor]

Great, thanks all. So, this puts another question into my head. If warm fermentation is ok with these yeasts why 2 packets then?

WHY INDEED!

I personally would just use 1/2 packet. One at most.

 

[FloppyKnockers]

Great, thanks all. So, this puts another question into my head. If warm fermentation is ok with these yeasts why 2 packets then? I thought the reason for 2 packets was because it was being fermented colder it needed two to offset the lack of temp? My thought it to pitch it around 60 and let it rise to between 65 and 68 and hold it there until complete. Either keg or bottle and let it rest at room temp for another week after that and start giving it a try from there. Good plan?

I'll be part of the opposition. I've easily done a hundred lagers - most with 34/70. I've never pitched more than one sachet..

I would put the second one in the fridge for your next batch.

 

[eliastheodosis]

Yeah, pitch rate is a great question. I'll throw in my handful of anecdotes. I've regularly fermented 34/70 in the mid 60s at ale pitch rates with minimal differences in comparison to mid 50s. If you're going for an Italian pillsner then I think no reason to worry.

If you're going for a simpler beer and want a very clean profile then keep in mind that low pitch rates can be associated with a more pronounced ester profile. There are tradeoffs here but it's something to consider. For those beers I at least try to make sure I'm on the high side for pitch date. Just mentioning because different setups could have different results. So YMMV. But I agree with @dmtaylor and @FloppyKnockers.

Couple refs from yeast labs for the pitch rate relation to ester production.

https://wyeastlab.com/resource/professional-pitch-rate

https://escarpmentlabs.com/en-us/blogs/resources/decoding-ester-production-in-yeast-fermentation

 

[Kickass]

I use this yeast a lot. My routine is one pouch fermented at 62. It ferments fast, clean and neutral. Save the second pouch.

 

[G_robertus]

I must be doing something wrong. I keep getting off flavors with 34/70 no matter what temperature. Once, after a warm ferment, and several weeks conditioning, the off flavor went away. There was no taste in the beer either. Watered down, but was supposed to be 6%+. I did the job on that part. I have an oktoberfest clone conditioning now. We'll see how that turns out, but samples are not good.

What are you trying to brew with this yeast in general? And how would you describe the off flavour?

I find that W34/70 strips malt flavours and pushes hop flavour forward. It can work nicely in certain pilsners, but I wouldn't use it for malty styles probably.

 

[Stikius]

Never pitched more than one 34/70 into anything up to 23 liters/6 gallons and never had any problems. For German and New Zeeland style pilsners this is my favorite yeast. Could be bit "yeasty" straight off the fermenter, but that taste disappear after just a day or two in the keg. On the other hand I think lagers taste better when they are actually lagered, so I rarely serve them younger than a month in the keg.

Regarding temperature I've not had any strange flavors with higher temps either, but normally still follow my standard lager fermentation schedule. Don't ask me why.

 

[hilljack13]

What are you trying to brew with this yeast in general? And how would you describe the off flavour?

I find that W34/70 strips malt flavours and pushes hop flavour forward. It can work nicely in certain pilsners, but I wouldn't use it for malty styles probably.

Mostly 1 gal tests. Mix of pils, munich II, and vienna. And one with each malt individually. I want to say it was buttery, but just wasn't good at all. I'm not good at describing flavors, good and bad is about all my pallet allows

 

[redrocker652002]

Thanks folks. I ended up putting both in as that is what the brewer did in the video I saw. If it is too much lesson learned. According to what I saw, two packets and fermented at about 68 degrees. Just curious, what is the results if I used too much? Other than wasting about 5 bucks when I did not need to. LOL.

Also, it is an Italian pilsner, which this is a first for me brewing. I did a lot better on my OG that the recipe, and came up about 1/2 gallon short, so I topped off using tap water prior to pitching yeast. I hope that does not screw anything up, but we will see. According to the recipe, 8 days total in the fermenter, two or three in the keg at room temp and then another two or three in the kegerator on CO2. As I have never been able to get a beer carbed at normal serving temps in less than 7 days, I am figuring it will be at least a week before I try it. I am kinda pumped as it smelled really good. But time will tell. My OG ended up to be about 1.050 after I added the top off water to my fermenter when the recipe said it should have been 1.047, so I was close. I guess I got a bit more boil off than the gallon I usually figure for. Strange thing, I tried to keep the boil lower and put a fan above the kettle to try and catch some of the steam and get it back into the kettle. I am going to have to calculate about a gallon and a half of boil off from now on I think. Oh well, either way, it is done now, so we will wait to see what it turns out like.

 

[ncbrewer]

Just curious, what is the results if I used too much? Other than wasting about 5 bucks when I did not need to. LOL.

I wouldn't expect any problems from pitching both packets. Depending on your source of information, that could be the correct pitch rate. (There seems to be considerable disagreement on that point.) But regardless, overpitching is better than underpitching.

 

[Genuine]

If I need to, I'll ferment 34/70 Warm and have produced really clean light lagers with it. I also have a fermenter that's capable of pressure fermenting so I'll do that as well. I haven't noticed a difference with pressure or not but that yeast is absolutely amazing. Right now I'm fermenting a german pilsner at 60 degrees in my basement and it's loving it. Also, I use 1 packet of 34/70 per 5 gallon batch and haven't had any off flavors either.

 

[eliastheodosis]

Just curious, what is the results if I used too much? Other than wasting about 5 bucks when I did not need to. LOL.

You can check the Wyeast link I posted above if you're curious. It gives a breakdown of effects from over pitching or under pitching. I agree with @ncbrewer above, though. I think you'd have to pretty extremely over pitch to see many effects. You're just supporting Fermentis, so maybe post it in the thread about what you did for beer today

 

[Miraculix]

What are you trying to brew with this yeast in general? And how would you describe the off flavour?

I find that W34/70 strips malt flavours and pushes hop flavour forward. It can work nicely in certain pilsners, but I wouldn't use it for malty styles probably.

I agree 100%.

3470 is a great yeast for crisp beers without the need of a strong malt backbone. It also greatly pushes hop flavour and aroma, so it's a great yeast for hoppy lagers and clean ales.

The direct opposite of this yeast would be imperial harvest. This yeast mutes hops heavily and pushes the malt to the center of the stage while putting an additional spotlight on it. This yeast is equally great when fermented warm.

Both are one of my favourite yeasts, they just need to be used in the right beer.

 

[Genuine]

I make my yearly Oktoberfest with 34/70 and the times I've used a higher chloride water profile (say...70ppm of chloride), the maltiness really comes out and I backed down since I didn't want it so malty.

 

[dmtaylor]

Mostly 1 gal tests. Mix of pils, munich II, and vienna. And one with each malt individually. I want to say it was buttery, but just wasn't good at all. I'm not good at describing flavors, good and bad is about all my pallet allows

Buttery = diacetyl. This is common. Fortunately all the beer needs is a few weeks of age and the diacetyl will disappear -- the yeast are able to eat it.

 

[dmtaylor]

Thanks folks. I ended up putting both in as that is what the brewer did in the video I saw. If it is too much lesson learned. According to what I saw, two packets and fermented at about 68 degrees. Just curious, what is the results if I used too much? Other than wasting about 5 bucks when I did not need to. LOL.

Too much yeast won't really hurt anything. Expect fermentation to take off super fast within like 4 hours of pitching. And yeah, a bit of a waste of money.

Also, it is an Italian pilsner, which this is a first for me brewing. I did a lot better on my OG that the recipe, and came up about 1/2 gallon short, so I topped off using tap water prior to pitching yeast. I hope that does not screw anything up, but we will see.

Topping off shouldn't hurt anything. I do it quite often.

Strange thing, I tried to keep the boil lower and put a fan above the kettle to try and catch some of the steam and get it back into the kettle. I am going to have to calculate about a gallon and a half of boil off from now on I think.

Don't use a fan. That probably increased your boiloff. It's not doing what you think it's doing.

 

[InspectorJon]

Strange thing, I tried to keep the boil lower and put a fan above the kettle to try and catch some of the steam and get it back into the kettle.

Moving air over the boiling wort will increase evaporation. You would need to put a lid on it to slow evaporation. Even that would have a minimal effect on slowing it down. Moving air carries off more water vapor.

 

[Kickass]

Just curious, what is the results if I used too much?

Over pitching isn’t really a problem unless you’re consistently doing it over multiple generations. When you over pitch, the yeast don’t generate new cells. So overtime, you get an aged colony that isn’t producing the flavor profile that comes along with all the lifecycle stages of yeast.

 

[G_robertus]

Mostly 1 gal tests. Mix of pils, munich II, and vienna. And one with each malt individually. I want to say it was buttery, but just wasn't good at all. I'm not good at describing flavors, good and bad is about all my pallet allows

And other beers in this size do work out? So you don't have excessive scorching or anything that might also give off flavours? Since you describe what seems to be diacetyl it's very unlikely, but then again it could be contributing to the flavour profile as a whole. However, since you say it goes away with conditioning warm I'd still say diacetyl. How much do you pitch and how long do you ferment? .2-.5 sachet is need if fermenting warm or cold for you batch size. I don't have my notes now, but I think I left my last few batches on the yeast for 2-3 weeks and it was fine. I did overpitch though.

 

[hilljack13]

And other beers in this size do work out? So you don't have excessive scorching or anything that might also give off flavours? Since you describe what seems to be diacetyl it's very unlikely, but then again it could be contributing to the flavour profile as a whole. However, since you say it goes away with conditioning warm I'd still say diacetyl. How much do you pitch and how long do you ferment? .2-.5 sachet is need if fermenting warm or cold for you batch size. I don't have my notes now, but I think I left my last few batches on the yeast for 2-3 weeks and it was fine. I did overpitch though.

Only one other beer that I tried. Some random grains, however I just bottled this past week. I haven't seen any scorching. For pitching I have done between 4-6 grams. One batch was fermented room temps 68F, to see how well that worked. It was better. The others I put in the fridge and adjusted temps ~53F-63F during different stages.

 

[redrocker652002]

Quick update. It started showing activity in the airlock about hour 18. Not feverish but steady. After about 28 hours the airlock has gone dormant. Not sure if that's normal. Gonna leave 8t be until Friday and test thd gravity. Hopefully it will be close to the 1.009 my recipe said.

 

[G_robertus]

Only one other beer that I tried. Some random grains, however I just bottled this past week. I haven't seen any scorching. For pitching I have done between 4-6 grams. One batch was fermented room temps 68F, to see how well that worked. It was better. The others I put in the fridge and adjusted temps ~53F-63F during different stages.

I've noticed my small pot caramelises differently compared to my electric kettle, so you might expect different flavours. Also chilling could be an issue, although I almost never experience problems with DMS even when not chilling. Your pitching seems fine, it might just be time in the fermenter that needs to be increased.

Quick update. It started showing activity in the airlock about hour 18. Not feverish but steady. After about 28 hours the airlock has gone dormant. Not sure if that's normal. Gonna leave 8t be until Friday and test thd gravity. Hopefully it will be close to the 1.009 my recipe said.

Fermentation can go very fast if you pitch warm, but air lock activity is not the best way to monitor how far along fermentation is. Take a measurement to be sure. You might also have a small leak or lid that has been displaced by fermentation.

 

[redrocker652002]

Wow!!!!! OK, so I pitched the yeast Friday afternoon about 3 or so. We are now about 48 hours in and I was very curious so I pulled a sample. First thing I noticed when I opened the door was a very distinct smell of what I felt was rotten eggs. I thought, great I just jacked up my first batch. Funny thing is, when I smelled the sample it smelled ok. Lagerish smell but not overpowering. So, I am not really hopeful but put it in my hydrometer and be damned if it isn't at about 1.007? So, based on my recipe I am done with fermentation. I am going to dry hop tomorrow and keg on either Friday or Saturday unless anybody can tell me why I shouldn't. Gonna leave it in the keg at room temp for 2 or 3 days and in the kegerator it goes to get cold. So, summarizing, this yeast only took 48 hours to ferment? Does that sound right to you folks? I guess the numbers don't lie, right?

 

[hilljack13]

Only thing I can say is when I started to ask questions about my off flavors it was recommended to raise the temp a bit more. I went 10-12 higher than starting temps (F) and have to let it sit 1 - 1.5 weeks. Not right, but the oktoberfest clone I have is mostly clean. Might have the slightest off flavor, but it's probably me being over paranoid at this point. It was bottled 28 March.

 

[G_robertus]

Wow!!!!! OK, so I pitched the yeast Friday afternoon about 3 or so. We are now about 48 hours in and I was very curious so I pulled a sample. First thing I noticed when I opened the door was a very distinct smell of what I felt was rotten eggs. I thought, great I just jacked up my first batch. Funny thing is, when I smelled the sample it smelled ok. Lagerish smell but not overpowering. So, I am not really hopeful but put it in my hydrometer and be damned if it isn't at about 1.007? So, based on my recipe I am done with fermentation. I am going to dry hop tomorrow and keg on either Friday or Saturday unless anybody can tell me why I shouldn't. Gonna leave it in the keg at room temp for 2 or 3 days and in the kegerator it goes to get cold. So, summarizing, this yeast only took 48 hours to ferment? Does that sound right to you folks? I guess the numbers don't lie, right?

Don't keg right away, wait for the sulphur to dissipate first. That's normal with many yeasts including lager yeasts. However, if you package now you can't get it out. Just let the fermenter off gas a bit.

Only thing I can say is when I started to ask questions about my off flavors it was recommended to raise the temp a bit more. I went 10-12 higher than starting temps (F) and have to let it sit 1 - 1.5 weeks. Not right, but the oktoberfest clone I have is mostly clean. Might have the slightest off flavor, but it's probably me being over paranoid at this point. It was bottled 28 March.

Well that could be the result of using the wrong yeast. If you expect a very malty beer, W34/70 will disappoint you big time. M84 and S-189 will work better, though the first isn't technically a lager yeast. Diamond works as well if you can stand the red apple esters.
If it doesn't have the buttery flavour anymore though, you probably just found out you need a diacetyl rest.

 

[hilljack13]

Don't keg right away, wait for the sulphur to dissipate first. That's normal with many yeasts including lager yeasts. However, if you package now you can't get it out. Just let the fermenter off gas a bit.


Well that could be the result of using the wrong yeast. If you expect a very malty beer, W34/70 will disappoint you big time. M84 and S-189 will work better, though the first isn't technically a lager yeast. Diamond works as well if you can stand the red apple esters.
If it doesn't have the buttery flavour anymore though, you probably just found out you need a diacetyl rest.

I have some 189 on hand. I am trying to get a good malty festbier. I miss those in the tents

 

[dmtaylor]

Wow!!!!! So, summarizing, this yeast only took 48 hours to ferment? Does that sound right to you folks? I guess the numbers don't lie, right?

Well, you pitched about 4 times as much yeast as you really needed, and fermented warm and not cold, so yeah, that's going to ferment kind of fast.

 

[redrocker652002]

Well, you pitched about 4 times as much yeast as you really needed, and fermented warm and not cold, so yeah, that's going to ferment kind of fast.

LOL. Good to know. I followed the instructions.

 

[redrocker652002]

Don't keg right away, wait for the sulphur to dissipate first. That's normal with many yeasts including lager yeasts. However, if you package now you can't get it out. Just let the fermenter off gas a bit.


Well that could be the result of using the wrong yeast. If you expect a very malty beer, W34/70 will disappoint you big time. M84 and S-189 will work better, though the first isn't technically a lager yeast. Diamond works as well if you can stand the red apple esters.
If it doesn't have the buttery flavour anymore though, you probably just found out you need a diacetyl rest.

Gonna let it ride for at least a week in the bucket and keg next saturday if it doesn't smell. If it does I will wait a bit longer. All in all, it was pretty cool for it to be done so fast.

 

[deuc224]

When i do lagers, I run at about 64 and with 15psi with 34/70. I dont wanna chance it so i run it pressurized also, i wanna push the limit of my fermenter and do a 15 gallon batch pressurized, wouldnt trust it with 15 gallons of hefe lol.

 

[redrocker652002]

OK, reviving my old thread to ask a few more questions. The beer has been sitting at room temp now for 3 days, it is my attempt at a diacetyl rest and it said to do so in the video. I am going to put it in the kegerator now, and hook up the CO2 so maybe, and I know it is a big maybe, it will be ready this weekend. Two questions: What is the serving or finish temps of a Pilsner? Also, what is good pressure for the same said Pilsner? I know, I could look it up, and I will, but just wanted to hear from the pro's