Sack squeezing and haze

[applescrap]

I feel fairly certain at this point that aggressive sack squeezing can lead to permanent haze. Or at least that coupled with short boil, or other factors. I have started many threads on my hazy beer issues to no avail.

In reading biab no sparge vs squeeze, and xbmt sack squeeze both testers noticed haze in the finished beer. In one xbmt at the end the brulosopher redid the xbmt just to test haze, and found again a strong haze from sack squeezing. I have a lager, granted warm fermented, that is still hazy months later. Surely the cold would drop it clear. But nope. Look at this. I think the golden promise malt exacerbated this a little too. So does anyone else notice this?

I squeeze with pasta collander over bucket and a pan lid. And I get a lot of wort out.

 

[SteveH aka shetc]

Sack squeezed, no haze

 

[applescrap]

Hard to tell, appears a little hazy from my angle. Look at the brulosophy picks above, yours looks like the one on the right, just like mine do, is that an Oktoberfest? How aggressive did you squeeze?

Don't get me wrong I have had beers drop clean and have had some success with fining but I think there might be something to this.

Since I don't use a pulley, pulling the grains and squeezing them, I have always wondered and even started a thread about going to a bag in a cooler. Yeah I would have to clean the cooler but right now I'm cleaning the bucket and colander. Then go full volume or batch sparge. And just drain. I stir so aggressively I wonder if that matters, too.

Sorry one more last idea, I have also wondered if all the hard sack squeezing has led to a very fresh, full flavored beer, and higher quality beer then a simple drain.

 

[SteveH aka shetc]

Don't think it is hazy, just condensation. I brew with a Bayou Classic pot with a basket, and put the bag in the basket. Squeezing for me means taking a pot cover and pushing down on the grains so that the wort trickles through the holes in the basket.

 

[applescrap]

^^that sounds solid. Sounds like a less pita method than mine too.

Nothing like talking about sack squeezing, a little disappointed really.

Looking for a little more confirmation, understanding. Please help lead me to the sack squeeze light.

I get after it pretty hard. I use a small agile lid and rotate the sack around as I go. Pressing hard enough the collander handles embed inside warm bucket. Learned hard way to keep clear of them. Seems like the right way to brew, I dunno. I have never measured anything and have no idea of efficiency. Combined with captain caveman stirring, the liguor is plenty sweet. The older I get seems the less those last pint of sweet liquor matter.

 

[RevKev]

My two cents. Nothing a good, long, hard cold crash can't solve. If not gelatin it is. I'm doing a German pils that I'll be lagering and I'll squeeze the heck out of it and report back in a month.

I get in there with both hands and wind on it while it's hanging. Gave up on the last BIAB and let it drain. I probably lost a bit of beer but not squeezing 33lbs was a good life choice with a sprained wrist.

But even with the higher protein content and tannins you push out I've had success with going five below serving temp in an effort to suppress chill haze and drop out whatever I could.

 

[FatDragon]

I squeeze aggressively with a very fine grind (lots of flour), use no finings in the kettle or during/after fermentation, and dump the whole kettle into my fermenter, trub and all. My beers have been coming out crystal clear lately.

 

[RM-MN]

But even with the higher protein content and tannins you push out

You must have a terrific push if you can push tannins out. For most of us it takes a high pH in the mash to do that.

 

[soccerdad]

Haze has never bothered me so I don't even pay attention to it. I guess some beers are hazy and some aren't. I don't over squeeze. I mostly just let the bag drain.

 

[applescrap]

I wonder if yeast and or type of grain matter. Of note my sacks are of poor quality. Perhaps this filtering flaw is to blame. Maybe the brulosophy guys got similar sacks?

 

[RevKev]

You must have a terrific push if you can push tannins out. For most of us it takes a high pH in the mash to do that.

Hahaha if only. I'd be the world's strongest man. Switch the order protein and tannin... Whoopsy. No matter they should all drop out.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I feel fairly certain at this point that aggressive sack squeezing can lead to permanent haze. Or at least that coupled with short boil, or other factors. I have started many threads on my hazy beer issues to no avail.

It's fall, so I've been brewing darker recipes recently (and not paying any attention to clarity). But I've been watching this topic as it's likely at some point in time I'll pay close attention to clarity and may need to make some (hopefully minor) process changes. Or maybe I'll end up doing a "classic mash" for those beers that I want to be crystal clear.

What research have you done (web searches, homebrewing books, brewing text books) on the subject of haze? A quick google search returns links to a couple of checklists on haze from generally highly regarded sources. Have you tried those ideas with your process?

 

[applescrap]

The list of haze factors can be long. I have done some research on the topic, but not sure I have kept that research in mind enough. A fairly definitive resource on haze can be found by googling the brew professor Dr. Banforth and his podcasts on it. I think boil length is also a factor affecting me. Some beers do drop clear. Especially with fining. But two brulosophers finding that squeezing the sack caused haze got me looking. Not a lot of annecdotal out there, thus the thread. Quality if bag is my next consideration. Strength of squeeze too. Of note, I will create big trub cakes, sometimes well over a gallon.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

The list of haze factors can be long. I have done some research on the topic, but not sure I have kept that research in mind enough. A fairly definitive resource on haze can be found by googling the brew professor Dr. Banforth and his podcasts on it. I think boil length is also a factor affecting me. Some beers do drop clear. Especially with fining. But two brulosophers finding that squeezing the sack caused haze got me looking. Not a lot of annecdotal out there, thus the thread. Quality if bag is my next consideration. Strength of squeeze too. Of note, I will create big trub cakes, sometimes well over a gallon.

So did you find that longer boils helped clear the beer?

 

[cegan09]

There's so many variables, and you seem to be in danger of all of them.

Boiling strong enough to get a good hot break at the start, boiling long enough to drive out the compounds you're trying to remove. Chilling fast enough to get a good cold break. Making sure the fermentation is done and you aren't packaging with yeast still trying to finish up. Good cold crash, either in fermenter, or in the keg/bottle.


I've only ever done BIAB, and I've squeezed the bag each time. Any beer that should have been clear has ended up clear. Sometimes takes a week or two in the kegorator, but I don't really cold crash the fermenter or add any fining of any sort.

 

[LittleRiver]

... Of note my sacks are of poor quality. Perhaps this filtering flaw is to blame. ...

If you're using a coarse woven bag, and squeezing it, you're starting out at a disadvantage if your goal is clear beer.

A quality bag made of swiss voile is not that expensive, and well worth every penny. I've been super happy with my Wilser bag. After the mash I hoist it and let gravity fully drain it into the kettle during the boil. There's no need to squeeze, a fully drained bag (that no longer drips) is only going to have 200-300ml of liquid left in the grains.

 

[applescrap]

There's so many variables, and you seem to be in danger of all of them.

Boiling strong enough to get a good hot break at the start, boiling long enough to drive out the compounds you're trying to remove. Chilling fast enough to get a good cold break. Making sure the fermentation is done and you aren't packaging with yeast still trying to finish up. Good cold crash, either in fermenter, or in the keg/bottle.


I've only ever done BIAB, and I've squeezed the bag each time. Any beer that should have been clear has ended up clear. Sometimes takes a week or two in the kegorator, but I don't really cold crash the fermenter or add any fining of any sort.

Good points. Not likely though. I use a 5500 w immersed element that brings wort to boil in 15 minutes or so. I can chill 11 g of wort in 8 minutes ish, with a 40 dollar immersion chiller. I have documented that well if anyone cares to learn how. The 45 min boil I normally employ is very vigorous and anything past 60 percent is dangerous. Plenty well fermented and chilled. Not usually fined.

 

[applescrap]

If you're using a coarse woven bag, and squeezing it, you're starting out at a disadvantage if your goal is clear beer.

A quality bag made of swiss voile is not that expensive, and well worth every penny. I've been super happy with my Wilser bag. After the mash I hoist it and let gravity fully drain it into the kettle during the boil. There's no need to squeeze, a fully drained bag (that no longer drips) is only going to have 200-300ml of liquid left in the grains.

I wonder if its this. Should get some wilser bags.

 

[RM-MN]

Good points. Not likely though. I use a 5500 w immersed element that brings wort to boil in 15 minutes or so. I can chill 11 g of wort in 8 minutes ish, with a 40 dollar immersion chiller. I have documented that well if anyone cares to learn how. The 45 min boil I normally employ is very vigorous and anything past 60 percent is dangerous. Plenty well fermented and chilled. Not usually fined.

New information suggest that too vigorous of a boil can cause some problems with beer stability. All it needs is a slow roll, not a vigorous boil.

I use a paint strainer bag and squeeze the bejesus out of it, then stir some water into the grains and squeeze it again. I still get clear beer. Check the quality of the milling of the grain. If it is too coarse you might be getting a bit of starch haze as the conversion isn't complete.

 

[Miraculix]

I squeeze aggressively with a very fine grind (lots of flour), use no finings in the kettle or during/after fermentation, and dump the whole kettle into my fermenter, trub and all. My beers have been coming out crystal clear lately.

I 2nd that!

 

[applescrap]

Thats really interesting because brew professor charlie b. is adamant that stability is deeply rooted in boil length and vigorousness, iirc that is. Golden promise verse domestic 2 row, different yeasts, idk, many factors possibly. I cant be the only one. The brulosophy xbmts similar as well. Most beers clear but some way longer. And depending on how fast you drink them, well there's that too. I might finish them before they clear. Hmm.

I've seen paint strainer bags I think, they seem like a pretty nice fine-mesh. Coarseness of these cheap bags could be playing a role.

 

[El Nino]

I squeeze, maybe I'm not doing it aggressive enough lol

 

[wilserbrewer]

I've seen paint strainer bags I think, they seem like a pretty nice fine-mesh. Coarseness of these cheap bags could be playing a role.

Paint strainer bags are very much coarser than polyester voile material, 3-4 times estimated.

Thanks member Jinks for the photos linked below....


wilserbrewer BIAB bags
Here are some photographic quality comparisons

Wilserbrewer seams and weave:

From just the appearance the Wilserbrewer seam looks way more durable. The weave is tighter than the others also.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/index.php?posts/6673748/

 

[iamwhatiseem]

I have a pulley that I lift and hold the grain bag over the pot, I have two silicon gloves and I squeeze from the top, then work downward squeezing several times till I get to the bottom. I get a lot of wort out. Before I didn't squeeze very much and I was not hitting target #'s... after squeezing I reach acceptable target and of course have more beer!
As for haze, I don't notice any issues. I brewed a brown ale last month and it is crystal clear.

Cheers

 

[BruceH]

I 2nd that!

3rd. The more experience I have with brewing the more I realize that I don't always have the same experiences as others report.

 

[Cato1507]

Thats really interesting because brew professor charlie b. is adamant that stability is deeply rooted in boil length and vigorousness, iirc that is. Golden promise verse domestic 2 row, different yeasts, idk, many factors possibly. I cant be the only one. The brulosophy xbmts similar as well. Most beers clear but some way longer. And depending on how fast you drink them, well there's that too. I might finish them before they clear. Hmm.

I've seen paint strainer bags I think, they seem like a pretty nice fine-mesh. Coarseness of these cheap bags could be playing a role.

I've had good luck with this bag, and usually drip/sprinkle sparge and squeeze.
https://www.brewinabag.com/products/the-brew-bag-for-kettles

 

[SteveH aka shetc]

Don't think it is hazy, just condensation. I brew with a Bayou Classic pot with a basket, and put the bag in the basket. Squeezing for me means taking a pot cover and pushing down on the grains so that the wort trickles through the holes in the basket.

 

[EnglishAndy]

I think you need to look elsewhere for the cause of your haze, or like you say there is a linked issue that you haven't noticed yet. I squeeze like mad - my grain absorption is 0.2fl oz/oz. My wort is as opaque as porridge and I tip the whole lot into the fermenter. My last two brews have been unbelievably clear after 3 weeks with no cold crash when I started using a gelatin/kieselsol fining combination in the keg. Before that they dropped clear but usually I'd be half-way down the keg before it got there.

I have, in the past, mistakenly induced a permanent haze in a brew. The cause was too much mineral content because I misread the label on the bottled water I was using by failing to notice they were quoting the mineral content per 100ml not the standard per 1000ml. Thus I had far higher mineral content than I wanted after adjustment and that beer just would not clear. Oh and the pH would have been off (high) on that one as well due to not enough acid added to the mash water.

 

[applescrap]

View attachment 592819

Nice setup.

 

[SteveH aka shetc]

Nice setup.

Thanks. It's just a standard bayou classic kettle and burner I got off of craigslist. I bought the pulley thingy from Lowes. The bag from wilserbrewer was the main upgrade. Pot top I got as part of a wedding gift from 31 years ago [emoji13]

 

[applescrap]

Haha, my lid was a wedding gift I think too. 16 years here.

Upon relooking, it looks like its hanging off your garage door? The way I press I would be worried about damaging something. I am pressing down into a bucket with all my strength. Then rotating the bag and doing it again. Got my fingers caught a couple times and also have to be careful becuase as lauter catching bucket expands with heat I have driven the collander into it deep enough that it has taken a behemoth effort to remove.

 

[RM-MN]

Haha, my lid was a wedding gift I think too. 16 years here.

Upon relooking, it looks like its hanging off your garage door? The way I press I would be worried about damaging something. I am pressing down into a bucket with all my strength. Then rotating the bag and doing it again. Got my fingers caught a couple times and also have to be careful becuase as lauter catching bucket expands with heat I have driven the collander into it deep enough that it has taken a behemoth effort to remove.

Ease off on the pressing. You won't lose but a few ounces of wort.

 

[applescrap]

Yeah, totally. Last time, I was like wtf, all that effort for a pint or two. And also that last bit might be a clarity culprit. I am thinking about buying a pot to do 5g on stove. And getting a colander for the top for gentle drain.

 

[RM-MN]

Yeah, totally. Last time, I was like wtf, all that effort for a pint or two. And also that last bit might be a clarity culprit. I am thinking about buying a pot to do 5g on stove. And getting a colander for the top for gentle drain.

I don't think the hard squeezing is your problem. Unless you are a lot stronger than me, you aren't squeezing too hard. I squeeze out the wort, add water, squeeze that out, add more water, and give it a final hard squeeze so there isn't a chance of any drip onto the carpet on my way out to dump the bag and I still get clear beer.

 

[applescrap]

Hmm, maybe the cheap worn out bag? I wondered because you also do short boils and mashes as well? Have you noticed anything with shorter boils and mashes. Also grain, this was golden promise, wonder if that matters.

 

[RM-MN]

Hmm, maybe the cheap worn out bag? I wondered because you also do short boils and mashes as well? Have you noticed anything with shorter boils and mashes. Also grain, this was golden promise, wonder if that matters.

I sure have. It takes a lot less time.

One has to be cautious with going too short with either mash or boil. Too short on the mash and you don't get flavor, only alcohol. I like my beer to have flavor. For the boil, it takes time to isomerize the hop oils to get the bitterness.

 

[balrog]

I let the earth squeeze my bag. Gravity. 15 minutes. Moving along.

<now where is the thread about silly things you've said about brewing...>

 

[applescrap]

A thread paying homage to me by you. Hmm, not a bad idea.

 

[applescrap]

Brewed today and sure enough one bag has a large square pattern on it. There was a ton of shat in the brew too. Ugh, pm'd wilser about dang time.

 

[yourlastchance89]

I do biab and I've changed a few things since I've started. Not that I was making bad beers but I am trying to get a feel for the different possible outcomes. I used to squeeze, sparge, and did no kind of filtering of my wort at all.
Now I do a no squeeze and just hang and drain for a little while. Usually 30 minutes to 2 hours depending on if I feel like taking a break to do something. It saves me the strain of having to squeeze.
After discovering a small hole in the bag one time I began double bagging with a paint strainer bag encapsulated by one of the biab.com bags.
For filtering wort I've tried a few minor things which have pretty much wound up being useless in eliminating the break matter that makes into my fermenters.
After doing more research today I am going to try placing a strainer bag in my milling bucket to eliminate any excess loose flour as I've read some people who do biab have seen that cut down on break matter. Also I'm going to try a ghetto version of vorlaufing my wort after the bag drains. I'm essentially going to let the post-mash break matter settle to the bottom of the kettle, which most of it does after 30 minutes to an hour, and utilizing the kettle spigot and a pitcher I'm going to pull from the bottom of the kettle and pour that back through the grains in the bag. I'll let you know how it turns out.

The pic posted is one of my most recent brews. An ipa with two separate additions of 3 oz of dry hops each. One added a day after pitching the yeast at high krausen. The other added to the keg with a clear beer attachment. It was only cold crashed and it came out crystal clear.