NEIPA's Whirlfloc and the case of polyphenol haze

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beervoid

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Hello everyone, I wanted to share some thoughts.

I've been brewing NEIPA's for quiet some time now. Experimenting with wheat/oat percentages and also with and without kettle finings, in this case whirlfloc.

I'm of the opinion that large percentages of oats or wheats cause a haze that combined with the large dry hop amounts keep large amounts of polyphenols and perhaps yeast in suspension, and cause a strong bitterness.
In some cases, probably depending on the type of hops the beer needs up to several weeks to clear out and turn from a bitter bomb into something juicy and drinkable.

I've noticed that when using whirlfloc, my NEIPA will turn clearer but still hazy, much faster and becomes drinkable almost right after fermentation is done.
The juice factor seems to be a balancing act of just the right stuff in suspension

Anyone else here with the same experiences?
Do larger then let's say 20% wheats or oats keep that bitterness and hazy longer in suspension?
Do you notice a difference with malted or flaked wheats and oats?
Have you noticed differences when using whirlfloc?
Do you notice less mouthfeel when using whirlfloc?

Any suggestions as to how to combat the polyphenols other then pvpp?

Happy brewing!
 

Dextersmom

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I saw you on reddit ;-)

The response given by the person on reddit i'm not in full agreement with. While you do run into many breweries that have yeast matter at the bottom of cans, the desirable haze that you get does not primarily come from yeast. The permanent haze comes mostly from the polyphenol reaction with proteins - this binding is irreversible (whereas yeast based haze from suspension will eventually settle out)

I use irish moss or whirlfloc in all of my batches - NEIPA is no different. I still pull some pretty good haze (not as turbid as some i've seen before but still very good). For me I've noticed the best haze when my grain bill has had a higher percentage of flaked / malted wheat and early dry hopping. I've used high percentages of flaked oats, but i've found more of the character I'm personally looking for with wheats (malted / flaked).

the reddit poster was correct in stating that yeast floc will take with it some of the hop aromas, but this is why an additional late stage dry hop can be beneficial.

also remember that it is extremely difficult to get the level aroma POP that you notice right when you open a can of commercial juice.

also when brewing the NEIPA style (as much as I hate to say it because I love the thick turbid look) your goal should be flavor over look.

keep working, reading, and experimenting. you'll get there.
 

specharka

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Hello everyone, I wanted to share some thoughts.

I've been brewing NEIPA's for quiet some time now. Experimenting with wheat/oat percentages and also with and without kettle finings, in this case whirlfloc.

I'm of the opinion that large percentages of oats or wheats cause a haze that combined with the large dry hop amounts keep large amounts of polyphenols and perhaps yeast in suspension, and cause a strong bitterness.
In some cases, probably depending on the type of hops the beer needs up to several weeks to clear out and turn from a bitter bomb into something juicy and drinkable.

I've noticed that when using whirlfloc, my NEIPA will turn clearer but still hazy, much faster and becomes drinkable almost right after fermentation is done.
The juice factor seems to be a balancing act of just the right stuff in suspension

Anyone else here with the same experiences?
Do larger then let's say 20% wheats or oats keep that bitterness and hazy longer in suspension?
Do you notice a difference with malted or flaked wheats and oats?
Have you noticed differences when using whirlfloc?
Do you notice less mouthfeel when using whirlfloc?

Any suggestions as to how to combat the polyphenols other then pvpp?

Happy brewing!
Wheat and oats provide body and mouthfeel to the beer, but shouldn’t appreciably affect the final bitterness or polyphenols in suspension. Everything will precipitate eventually.
Flaked wheat and oats produce more haziness and kettle trub than their malted constituents, and will result in a lighter and less perceptibly sweet beer due to the impact of kilning the malt.
I’ve definitely noticed that when I neglect to use Whirlfloc tablets, the finished beer stays hazy longer and it takes much more time to precipitate the suspended yeast and hops. I believe it causes cold break to precipitate faster so you transfer less to the FV.
I don’t think Whirlfloc affects mouthfeel, but I haven’t personally investigated it to be sure.

To combat your issues, I would recommend cold crashing (carefully, to avoid oxygen ingress) between your fermentation vessel and serving vessel. Cold temperatures are more effective at reducing or removing suspended particulates than any chemical you might introduce. You will still see some haze, but that harsh bitterness you’re experiencing should fade quickly as the hop debris settles out.
 

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If you use a high protein base malt (Rahr 2 Row especially) and say 5% Carafoam there is no need to use any flaked adjuncts. I do everything possible to make sure wort is crystal clear before going into the fermenter, don’t dry hop during fermentation, don’t add huge Whirlpool additions, use more CaSo4 than CaCl and my beers stay permanently hazy. I’ve got one on tap now that I lagered at 32* for a week before transferring to a second keg to naturally carbonated it and it’s been in that keg for three weeks now and is maybe one of the haziest I’ve ever made.

Adding tons of wheat/oats lots of CaCl, fermentation dry hopping are generally homebrew related myths that aren’t necessary for this style. The best professional examples of the style do virtually none of those things.

With high oil/polyphenol hops, especially the ones from Australia and high dry hopping loads, you NEED to either cold crash in primary or secondary, or (gasp) fine the beer to reduce that harsh hop bitterness. You just need to do it under positive pressure to avoid O2 ingress.
 

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I don't use whirlfloc or finings. Or bittering hops in the kettle. But I do use a high flocculating yeast cold crash before kegging and rely on chill haze.
 

Dextersmom

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Adding tons of wheat/oats lots of CaCl, fermentation dry hopping are generally homebrew related myths that aren’t necessary for this style. The best professional examples of the style do virtually none of those things.
I'd be interested in hearing about where you got this data. Most professionals you hear from or talk to, mention doing many of those things.
 

couchsending

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I'd be interested in hearing about where you got this data. Most professionals you hear from or talk to, mention doing many of those things.
The professionals that invented and/or made the style popular. There are very few breweries who make this style as well as the top 3 or 4. The info is out there, you just need to look.
 

ca_baracus

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I feel like I’m experiencing this. My grain bill was 20% flaked oats and wheat (10 & 10). 12oz of hops between whirlpool and dry hop. 6 of 12oz was Citra and I also have 1oz Citra cryo hops in the keg. No whirlfloc, no cold crash. It is tasting astringent but still very tasty. My wife thinks it tastes like grapefruit juice. Is this just the heap of Citra or the lack of whirlfloc?
 
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Hey everyone thanks for the responses.
I dont dry hop during active fermentation anymore I felt like all it does is mute hop flavour which time will do as well so I now dry hop with a few points left. Spund and naturally carbonate.

Now my latest has 8oz of galaxy loosely dry hopped in the keg and im using a floating system to draw from the top.
I used 15% flaked oats which is on the lower side for me but skipped the whirlfloc this time.
I dont add wheat or oat for haze but just for the proteins and beta glucans to get that mouthfeel right.

Keg has been cold crashing for 4 days now and is very hazy and has an astringent sharp bitter bite.
It seems this particular one might need quiet some time to clear up.
My previous beer had 10oz of citra but in a bag and I used whirlfloc, I drank it on day 11 and it was beautifull.
I really think being able to drink these beers faster outweights the potential more haze we get from not using whirlflocs.
Unless whirlflocs take out all the proteins and beta glucans we want for mouthfeel.
Ive not seen much consensus on this yet

All commercial examples Ive had the pleasure to drink like Tree House, Trillium, Other Half all poured quiet clear in the beginning its not till the last bit enters the glass one gets a nice haze and it tastes terrific. These are probably very very small and fine particles of good stuff we as home brewers will have trouble with filtering at the same level.

Whats left for me is to see if with using less whirlfloc, I might be able to find a nice midway between not dropping out too much proteins and keeping the haze but getting the harshness out.
I currently use half a tablet for 5 gallons
 
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couchsending

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Nate from Treehouse has specifically said they use kettle finings. Believe me you don’t want the stuff that kettle finings helps to eliminate ending up in your beer.

You are getting that harshness from Galaxy. Certain hops (especially the ones from Australia) have incredibly high polyphenol content and require extra steps to eliminate that especially with incredibly high dry hopping rates.

You either need to Lager it for an extended time or fine it.

All those breweries you mention have centrifuges. They can centrifuge the high molecular weight particles out which leaves a finer more permanent haze in the packaged product.

If you want more stable haze eliminate as much yeast in the packaging vessel as possible, in this case your keg. You will also get more stable aroma that lasts longer if you can keep O2 ingress to the absolute minimum.
 
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beervoid

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I actually ferment and serve from the same keg to keep DOs as low as I can and its been great so far.
I will definitely not skip whirlfloc again.
Must conclude galaxy in combination with no whirlfloc indeed is culprit here.

I see most people tend to agree skipping whirlfloc is a bad idea. But ive read countless of times that whirlfoc only work on the hotside. My experience seems to be telling otherwise.

Can we conclude then that YES whirlfloc definately helps dropping out astringency from a NEIPA?

Must say I did do a citra galaxy noboil neipa one time without whirlfloc and the mouthfeel was great. Didnt take too long to be drinkable either.
Its all a bit mysterious.
Waiting for a 5 gallon centrifuge :)
 
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ca_baracus

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You are getting that harshness from Galaxy. Certain hops (especially the ones from Australia) have incredibly high polyphenol content and require extra steps to eliminate that especially with incredibly high dry hopping rates.
So you think using whirlfloc with Galaxy will eliminate its harshness? I'm thinking about doing a Galaxy/Columbus combo to get that tropical fruit/dankness effect, but it would be a higher ratio of Galaxy.
 
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beervoid

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So you think using whirlfloc with Galaxy will eliminate its harshness? I'm thinking about doing a Galaxy/Columbus combo to get that tropical fruit/dankness effect, but it would be a higher ratio of Galaxy.
In my experience Columbus in dry hopping is pretty aggressive and it seems Galaxy also.
I'm still not sure if the whirlfloc really helps dropping out this harsh bitterness, more experimentation needed if you give it a go, do please report back!

For a neipa I personally would dry hop very little or nothing at all and keep Columbus on the hotside only for max 20ibu's either as 60min addition or later and or as whirlpool.
 

ca_baracus

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In my experience Columbus in dry hopping is pretty aggressive and it seems Galaxy also.
I'm still not sure if the whirlfloc really helps dropping out this harsh bitterness, more experimentation needed if you give it a go, do please report back!

For a neipa I personally would dry hop very little or nothing at all and keep Columbus on the hotside only for max 20ibu's either as 60min addition or later and or as whirlpool.
Thanks for your input! I guess I was more or less trying to go for a Trillium Congress Street feel: http://www.trilliumbrewing.com/trillium-congress-street-ipa/. The DDH variation is one of the best IPAs I've ever had. I was going to go lighter on the Columbus side.
 

Kiln

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I definitely notice haze from dry hopping a once clear beer. I notably use a hop sack that is very fine.

Also, I have heard un malted wheat can actually help with clarity because the proteins are more dense and cling to other proteins dropping suspended particulates.
 

specharka

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I actually ferment and serve from the same keg to keep DOs as low as I can and its been great so far.
I will definitely not skip whirlfloc again.
Must conclude galaxy in combination with no whirlfloc indeed is culprit here.

I see most people tend to agree skipping whirlfloc is a bad idea. But ive read countless of times that whirlfoc only work on the hotside. My experience seems to be telling otherwise.

Can we conclude then that YES whirlfloc definately helps dropping out astringency from a NEIPA?

Must say I did do a citra galaxy noboil neipa one time without whirlfloc and the mouthfeel was great. Didnt take too long to be drinkable either.
Its all a bit mysterious.
Waiting for a 5 gallon centrifuge :)
It’s certainly possible that by skipping the Whirlfloc you are introducing a means for dry hops to remain in suspension, especially with the addition of unmalted wheat and oats. However, you shouldn’t need to post-boil finings or a centrifuge to drop particulates out of suspension.

I didn’t even consider that you might be serving from your dry hopping keg. Why don’t you perform a closed transfer and push it to a purged serving keg? I know it introduces a vector for oxygen ingress, but when executed properly it should cut out 99% of those astringent particles.
 
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beervoid

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It’s certainly possible that by skipping the Whirlfloc you are introducing a means for dry hops to remain in suspension, especially with the addition of unmalted wheat and oats. However, you shouldn’t need to post-boil finings or a centrifuge to drop particulates out of suspension.

I didn’t even consider that you might be serving from your dry hopping keg. Why don’t you perform a closed transfer and push it to a purged serving keg? I know it introduces a vector for oxygen ingress, but when executed properly it should cut out 99% of those astringent particles.
Apart from dry hopping loose, drawing from the top by float allows me to draw clearer beer faster.

Since those particles are supposed to drop out to the bottom by time, I dont see how transferring from one keg to another gives me less particles in suspension?
Unless you move the keg around alot?
Mine stay put in the kegerator.

Are you saying that by transferring to another keg those particles will drop out faster?
Does having yeast and hop trub on the bottom of a cold crashed keg have influence on that?
What is the theory behind this?
Cheers!
 
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beervoid

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I definitely notice haze from dry hopping a once clear beer. I notably use a hop sack that is very fine.

Also, I have heard un malted wheat can actually help with clarity because the proteins are more dense and cling to other proteins dropping suspended particulates.
I have tested this and did a 40% flaked adjuncts beer split by oats and wheat. No whirlfloc. It didnt clear up fast.
I have to add my neipas finish usually within 3 weeks.
 
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beervoid

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Thanks for your input! I guess I was more or less trying to go for a Trillium Congress Street feel: http://www.trilliumbrewing.com/trillium-congress-street-ipa/. The DDH variation is one of the best IPAs I've ever had. I was going to go lighter on the Columbus side.
There are a few recipes floating around the web
It’s certainly possible that by skipping the Whirlfloc you are introducing a means for dry hops to remain in suspension, especially with the addition of unmalted wheat and oats. However, you shouldn’t need to post-boil finings or a centrifuge to drop particulates out of suspension.

I didn’t even consider that you might be serving from your dry hopping keg. Why don’t you perform a closed transfer and push it to a purged serving keg? I know it introduces a vector for oxygen ingress, but when executed properly it should cut out 99% of those astringent particles.
Are you double dry hopping? 1 time during active fermentation. Then transfer to serving keg with small dose of dry hops?

Perhaps dry hopping most of the dry hop additions during active fermentation has another function besides "biotransformation" and actually helps to bind polyphenols to the yeast and proteins in suspension so that after they settle it helps to get rid of some bitter/astringency?
 
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beervoid

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Just to report back. I forgot the whirlfloc in a wyeast 1318 batch of NEIPA and it took more then 2 weeks to come together and clear up a bit.
It could be that because i'm on a later generation of 1318 that it doesn't seem to flocculate out that well anymore but i'm now quiet confident that whirlfloc definitely helps to get cleaner beer faster post fermentation.
 

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