Rye saison hopping...

[mclamb6]

Hi all,

I'm going to brew a dark rye saison next weekend. Basic recipe is 75% Pilsner, 12.5% rye malt, 12.5% flaked rye, with some D180 syrup, and dash of Carafa II for color. WYeast 3711.

Two options for hopping:

1 oz Nelson Sauvin at 60 minutes and FO or
1 oz Styrian Goldings at 60 minutes, 10 minutes, and FO.

Any opinions on these options? The rye has a nice earthiness to it, and I personally think 3711 gives a peppery note. I brewed this last year using Styrian Goldings just for bittering, but I think a hoppier version would be excellent. The wine quality of the Nelson would lend a nice, bright fruitiness to complement the earthy/spiciness of the rye/yeast. The goldings, on the other hand, would be a nice floral note throughout.

Opinions?

 

[bbrim]

This sounds like a great idea! I would probably not use any Nelson for bittering because they are so tasty and hard to get. I'd probably use magnum or something similar to pair with the Goldings in the buttering addition. Or you could use the Nelson as a FWH addition and not worry about subbing in a clean bittering hop.

 

[mclamb6]

Bump

 

[badlee]

I like the S. Goldings option.
I did a very good saison with Bobek(similar) and it was bloody great

 

[mclamb6]

I like the S. Goldings option.
I did a very good saison with Bobek(similar) and it was bloody great

I ended up going the Nelson Sauvin route because the Styrian Goldings at the LHBS were 1.8% AA, and I had no idea how much I would have needed to buy to get the bitterness I needed.

 

[Texconsinite]

Love 3711, been doing several Rye ales with it lately, success with both hoppy RyePAs and lawnmower fruit beers. Nelson goes great with 3711 as well. I used it and white Grape juice to make a White Grape pale ("WiGger" Pale Ale). 3711 also has made great darker ales too for me. Your idea of using 3711 and Nelson WITH Rye AND Dark is very intriguing, and something I've not even though of doing.

A few notes. Using Nelson for bittering almost seems like a waste, I used Magnum at 60 and saved the Nelson for aroma/flavor when i did mine.

I noticed lately alot of the german hops had a poor harvest this yr, perhaps thats the case with the Styrian goldings, lots of AAs waaaay down, so now might be a good time to lean towards Aussie/US hops so you dont need twice as much.

Since itll probably end up high ABV, maybe a name like Grape Ape Rye?

 

[mclamb6]

I'm also a big fan of 3711. I'm not sure if I have used a more forgiving and fast yeast. I'd hope that I can dry this out to about 1.004 or lower. I'm hopeful that the Nelson will add an interesting twist.

 

[Owly055]

I've used Nelson many times for flavor...... never "wasted it" on bittering, though the high AA makes it a potentially good bittering hop. But then many hops are "cross dressers". I've bittered with massive amounts of low AA hops, and brewed single hop beers with hops that were considered bittering hops........ In fact I brewed yesterday using only Summit......... probably the highest AA hop out there, using large amounts of it very late in the boil.... the wort tastes wonderful!
I'm interested in hearing how the Nelson came out...... it's my favorite hop. I'm wondering how understated the Nelson character will be............ I assume you are shooting for the low 50's for IBUs......My "sweet spot". It will be interesting to see how the combo works. Nelson often rides roughshod over more timid hops.


H.W.

 

[mclamb6]

I've used Nelson many times for flavor...... never "wasted it" on bittering, though the high AA makes it a potentially good bittering hop. But then many hops are "cross dressers". I've bittered with massive amounts of low AA hops, and brewed single hop beers with hops that were considered bittering hops........ In fact I brewed yesterday using only Summit......... probably the highest AA hop out there, using large amounts of it very late in the boil.... the wort tastes wonderful!
I'm interested in hearing how the Nelson came out...... it's my favorite hop. I'm wondering how understated the Nelson character will be............ I assume you are shooting for the low 50's for IBUs......My "sweet spot". It will be interesting to see how the combo works. Nelson often rides roughshod over more timid hops.


H.W.

I'll report back in the not-to-distant future on the results. By the way, IBU's on this one are going to be in the mid 20's.

 

[Owly055]

I'll report back in the not-to-distant future on the results. By the way, IBU's on this one are going to be in the mid 20's.

How large a brew is it? With a 5.5 gallon brew and one ounce of Nelson for 60 minutes...... and no other hop, the IBUs should be in the low 50's... (with leaf not pellet) The AAs are 12.5 typically. I'm assuming from this that you are brewing 11 gallons or so....... Otherwise you need to re-calculate.

H.W.

 

[mclamb6]

How large a brew is it? With a 5.5 gallon brew and one ounce of Nelson for 60 minutes...... and no other hop, the IBUs should be in the low 50's... (with leaf not pellet) The AAs are 12.5 typically. I'm assuming from this that you are brewing 11 gallons or so....... Otherwise you need to re-calculate.

H.W.

Ended up with 5.75ish gallons in the fermenter (7 gallons in the kettle, 90 minute boil). I only used .45 oz at 60 minutes (12.2% AA), .55 oz at 5 minutes, and 1 oz at flame out. Beer Tools has it at 22.9 IBU, although Beer Tools doesn't seem to be able to account for bitterness contribution at flame out.

 

[AnOldUR]

 

[Owly055]

Ended up with 5.75ish gallons in the fermenter (7 gallons in the kettle, 90 minute boil). I only used .45 oz at 60 minutes (12.2% AA), .55 oz at 5 minutes, and 1 oz at flame out. Beer Tools has it at 22.9 IBU, although Beer Tools doesn't seem to be able to account for bitterness contribution at flame out.

I get 25.4 with this using pellet, and 23 using leaf hops. This is a long way from an ounce at 60 minutes........... Was the original a mis calc?

H.W.

 

[Owly055]

I've been wanting to brew with rye again, but the last two times at the LHBS, they didn't have any in stock.


H.W.

 

[mclamb6]

I get 25.4 with this using pellet, and 23 using leaf hops. This is a long way from an ounce at 60 minutes........... Was the original a mis calc?

H.W.

No. I knew what I wanted IBU wise and was working backwards. When I originally thought to use a full ounce for the battering charge, I had probably moved it to like 40 minutes (or whatever would hit my number), but had forgotten when I originally posted.

 

[Owly055]

Please post results on this thread......... I'd love to hear how it comes out.... I just tasted my first home brew Saison, and it definitely tastes like something where Nelson would play well due to the fruity character of the yeast. I'm doing an single hop Nugget Saison this evening.


H.W.

 

[mclamb6]

Please post results on this thread......... I'd love to hear how it comes out.... I just tasted my first home brew Saison, and it definitely tastes like something where Nelson would play well due to the fruity character of the yeast. I'm doing an single hop Nugget Saison this evening.


H.W.

I pulled a sample last night after the krausen finally subsided and airlock activity had slowed. Dropped from 1.060 to 1.008/9 since last Saturday (ferm temp was 68/69 for 24 hours, 74/75 through last night, and will let it rise (if I can) to 78/79 for another day or two). I'm hoping to dry it out just a bit more. Definitely has a nice fruity/grape nose, and a fruity taste, although it's not over the top. I'll have a better idea of where things sit once it's cold and carbed. I'll probably have it on gas some time next week.