Rodenbach Grand Cru Clone

[andrewmaixner]

I'm going to try doing a small batch kettle sour version of this using lacto (Goodbelly StraightShot) and WY3724 or WY3463, plus maybe some tart cherry concentrate. I know it'll be different without the Brett, but I'm curious what the end result would be like. Cheers!

You will have a dry tart cherry saison. It could be good, but will be nothing at all like a flanders red.

 

[aaronm13]

Going to brew this for my wife as a birthday gift, Grand Cru is one of her favorite beers. I'e never brew a sour before so just want to clarify a few things in the process. I think I'm going to pitch the Roeselare yeast along with WLP009 as I have some and it' ppretty close to 001. At what point do I transfer to secondary? I presume after fermentation is complete. Can I wait a couple of months to do this? Would I also need to get some of yeast cake into secondary?

One last thing, I'm going to use some oak cubes in secondary. Would soaking these in red wine for a couple weeks be suitable sanitation or would I need to boil the cubes in water first or even in the wine itself?

As I said I haven't done a sour yet so it's all new to me. Appreciate any help and advice.

 

[RPh_Guy]

.... I think I'm going to pitch the Roeselare yeast along with WLP009 as I have some and it' ppretty close to 001. At what point do I transfer to secondary? ....

One last thing, I'm going to use some oak cubes in secondary. Would soaking these in red wine for a couple weeks be suitable sanitation or would I need to boil the cubes in water first or even in the wine itself?

As I said I haven't done a sour yet so it's all new to me. Appreciate any help and advice.

My suggestion: just pitch the blend, forget adding additional yeast. @cactusgarrett mentions that pitching the blend from the beginning creates a beer closer to Rodenbach.

Secondary is 100% unnecessary. Brett eats autolysed cells so you have nothing to fear.

Soaking the cubes in wine is unnecessary. Sanitation is a non-issue; the beer already contains all the "spoilage" microbes.
Some people put them in boiling water for a few minutes to remove a lot of the "new" oak character.

Make the wort, pitch the blend, protect from light & oxygen and you're set.
I'd add the oak cubes after a couple months.

You can add malt vinegar at bottling/kegging if you want acetic character and haven't acquired it naturally. I can't remember whether Rodenbach Grand Cru has any acetic since it's very rare that I can find it... But your own taste is what matters.

Cheers

BTW thanks cactus for this recipe! It looks great and I think I'll start a solera for this or something close to it.

 

[aaronm13]

Hey, thanks

My suggestion: just pitch the blend, forget adding additional yeast. @cactusgarrett mentions that pitching the blend from the beginning creates a beer closer to Rodenbach.

Secondary is 100% unnecessary. Brett eats autolysed cells so you have nothing to fear.

Soaking the cubes in wine is unnecessary. Sanitation is a non-issue; the beer already contains all the "spoilage" microbes.
Some people put them in boiling water for a few minutes to remove a lot of the "new" oak character.

Make the wort, pitch the blend, protect from light & oxygen and you're set.
I'd add the oak cubes after a couple months.

You can add malt vinegar at bottling/kegging if you want acetic character and haven't acquired it naturally. I can't remember whether Rodenbach Grand Cru has any acetic since it's very rare that I can find it... But your own taste is what matters.

Cheers

BTW thanks cactus for this recipe! It looks great and I think I'll start a solera for this or something close to it.

Hey, thanks RPh guy. You answered all my questions and sounds like you made brewing this a much simpler process. That's great too that I can just use the blend yeast too. In relation to this yeast are starters necessary for this and if so is the flask done for afterwards in regards infecting future strains or is it cleanable? Same applies to the bucket used for fermentation.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Hey, thanks

Hey, thanks RPh guy. You answered all my questions and sounds like you made brewing this a much simpler process. That's great too that I can just use the blend yeast too. In relation to this yeast are starters necessary for this and if so is the flask done for afterwards in regards infecting future strains or is it cleanable? Same applies to the bucket used for fermentation.

Starters generally aren't recommended for blends because it will change the ratio of the various microbes from what was set by the manufacturer. One less thing to do

Most people suggest using separate plastic & rubber cold-side parts for mixed fermentation beers with live microbes (like this one).
Others will say they sanitize just as easily as any other yeast. While there's some truth to that, it only takes a few cells of Brett or Pedio to spoil a clean batch so the risk is high.
If ever using wild microbes they might form a difficult-to-clean biofilm (which shouldn't be an issue if just using the Wyeast).

Personally I'd recommend at least dedicating the bucket to sour beers (not a bad thing).
Try to top off the bucket as much as possible after primary fermentation finishes to avoid too much acetic adic production. The HDPE is already more oxygen permeable that other materials from my understanding.

 

[aaronm13]

Starters generally aren't recommended for blends because it will change the ratio of the various microbes from what was set by the manufacturer. One less thing to do

Most people suggest using separate plastic & rubber cold-side parts for mixed fermentation beers with live microbes (like this one).
Others will say they sanitize just as easily as any other yeast. While there's some truth to that, it only takes a few cells of Brett or Pedio to spoil a clean batch so the risk is high.
If ever using wild microbes they might form a difficult-to-clean biofilm (which shouldn't be an issue if just using the Wyeast).

Personally I'd recommend at least dedicating the bucket to sour beers (not a bad thing).
Try to top off the bucket as much as possible after primary fermentation finishes to avoid too much acetic adic production. The HDPE is already more oxygen permeable that other materials from my understanding.

Thanks again, really appreciate your input. Now topping off, that's a totally new one to me. Had a quick Google of it. What's the purpose of it and how much would I need for a 5 gallon batch? Reading up it seems I could boil up some DME with a similar OG and use this it an I better off brewing something similar in style and adding this? I brew a lot of Dubbels and Quads but think these would be too dark in colour. It all sounds a fascinating process and can't wait to get going on it. Personally I don't like sours but really hope brewing this brings me around to what my wife has being telling me for years

 

[cactusgarrett]

All the things RPh Guy said. Also, for oak, I actually introduce a self-toasted oak dowel run through a rubber stopper into my beer after primary fermentation subsides. It helps impart the oak, while also allowing a small amount of air to ingress over time - similar to how (I would imagine) the oak of a barrel would "breathe".

 

[RPh_Guy]

Thanks again, really appreciate your input. Now topping off, that's a totally new one to me. Had a quick Google of it. What's the purpose of it and how much would I need for a 5 gallon batch? Reading up it seems I could boil up some DME with a similar OG and use this it an I better off brewing something similar in style and adding this? I brew a lot of Dubbels and Quads but think these would be too dark in colour. It all sounds a fascinating process and can't wait to get going on it. Personally I don't like sours but really hope brewing this brings me around to what my wife has being telling me for years

"Micro-oxygenation" (very low oxygen levels) help promote Brett flavor development. Most commercial breweries use oak since it allows some oxygen exchange (among other reasons). Same reason cactusgarrett uses a rod since he's probably fermenting in glass which is impermeable.
Your HDPE bucket is enough to provide the recommended micro-oxygenation.

Higher levels of oxygen encourage Brett to produce higher amounts of acetic acid (vinegar). How much acetic you like or can tolerate is a personal preference. This is the only style where the taste is acceptable at all (flanders style red & oude bruin).

For your first sour it's a good idea to try to limit acetic production as much as possible to get a baseline for your equipment.
The more headspace you have, the faster oxygen will diffuse in through the airlock, and the more you introduce when you open the lid. Thus filling the headspace effectively reduces oxygenation. Any somewhat similar (within reason) beer or wort works; malt extract is fine. How much you need depends on the beer level after the krausen drops and the size of your bucket.
My suggestion: On brew day just make extra wort as your system allows... You can either freeze it or ferment it with a clean strain in another vessel and then add it to top off when the krausen drops on your sour.

A waterless silicone airlock should also help with the diffusion aspect and eliminates the need to monitor the airlock to make sure it's not dry. If your bucket has a spigot for taking samples that's a big help for reducing oxygen as well.
The microbes help by forming a pellicle to reduce oxygenation, so avoid disturbing it if possible.

Topping up isn't totally necessary so it's up to you. FWIW most commercial traditional sour breweries do top up nowadays.

Hats off to you for starting with a mixed fermentation as your first sour! This should be a good one and worth the wait.

 

[aaronm13]

"Micro-oxygenation" (very low oxygen levels) help promote Brett flavor development. Most commercial breweries use oak since it allows some oxygen exchange (among other reasons). Same reason cactusgarrett uses a rod since he's probably fermenting in glass which is impermeable.
Your HDPE bucket is enough to provide the recommended micro-oxygenation.

Higher levels of oxygen encourage Brett to produce higher amounts of acetic acid (vinegar). How much acetic you like or can tolerate is a personal preference. This is the only style where the taste is acceptable at all (flanders style red & oude bruin).

For your first sour it's a good idea to try to limit acetic production as much as possible to get a baseline for your equipment.
The more headspace you have, the faster oxygen will diffuse in through the airlock, and the more you introduce when you open the lid. Thus filling the headspace effectively reduces oxygenation. Any somewhat similar (within reason) beer or wort works; malt extract is fine. How much you need depends on the beer level after the krausen drops and the size of your bucket.
My suggestion: On brew day just make extra wort as your system allows... You can either freeze it or ferment it with a clean strain in another vessel and then add it to top off when the krausen drops on your sour.

A waterless silicone airlock should also help with the diffusion aspect and eliminates the need to monitor the airlock to make sure it's not dry. If your bucket has a spigot for taking samples that's a big help for reducing oxygen as well.
The microbes help by forming a pellicle to reduce oxygenation, so avoid disturbing it if possible.

Topping up isn't totally necessary so it's up to you. FWIW most commercial traditional sour breweries do top up nowadays.

Hats off to you for starting with a mixed fermentation as your first sour! This should be a good one and worth the wait.

Thanks. I'm really excited to brew it as it's totally different for me and definitely a challenge. That's a great idea to brew an extra amount of wort so reckon I'll do that. Hopefully it all goes well. Have just ordered my grains and yeast so might get going on this the weekend. If I've anymore questions along the way I'll know where to ask.

 

[aaronm13]

I've just received all my ingredients for this but think I might have found a problem. The Roeselare yeast manufacturer is dated is Nov 2017 so worried the viability of the yeast won't be ideal to finish out the beer. In hindsight I should have got 2 packs. I had to get this yeast from another country so is pretty expensive when all the shipping is factored in. Am I worrying about nothing or should I
a) bite the bullet and order another pack or
b) use WLP009 along with the blend which I already have.

 

[andrewmaixner]

I've just received all my ingredients for this but think I might have found a problem. The Roeselare yeast manufacturer is dated is Nov 2017 so worried the viability of the yeast won't be ideal to finish out the beer. In hindsight I should have got 2 packs. I had to get this yeast from another country so is pretty expensive when all the shipping is factored in. Am I worrying about nothing or should I
a) bite the bullet and order another pack or
b) use WLP009 along with the blend which I already have.

only 5 months old? probably fine. if in doubt, add something neutral (like US05, S04) a day or two AFTER you add the Roeselare, to allow it to propogate some first. Or make a starter a couple days early to increase viability.

Also, info from MTF:
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Mixed_Cultures#Wyeast
"3763 - Roeselare Blend 75-80 Varies 65-85 Belgian style ale strain, a sherry strain, two Brettanomyces strains, a Lactobacillus culture, and a Pediococcus culture. Takes 14-18 months to develop acidity. Keep IBU under 6 for more acidity. Re-use the yeast cake for greater acidity in future batches. Adding fruit after the beer has aged for a few months will help increase acidity due to LAB fermenting the new sugars [35]."

 

[cactusgarrett]

I think you should be good using the pack as-is. Even fresh, you'd be underpitching (with regard to sacc cell count) anyway, so the date only means the viability is a bit decreased. In my opinion, it'll just take longer than it typically would to kick off, which could be good: more time to allow the bugs to work before the sacc takes over. Not a big deal since this one should sit for the long haul anyway. Adding anything extra or making a starter would imbalance the mix towards something that's different than intended.

 

[aaronm13]

Thanks for that everyone. Think I'll just pitch the 1 smack pack I have so. Don't have a LHS so don't fancy putting in an order online for just 1 packet of us04/05. I'll just end up buying some new piece of equipment I don't need to justify the shipping costs.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Just brewed 6 gallons pretty close to this recipe yesterday. Pitched one pack of Roeselare (2 month old, activated 6h in advance) into unaerated wort in the low 70s. Sacc took off some time between 14 and 22 hours. Smells great already.

So excited!
...
Now the wait.

 

[Shenanigans]

Could I used lactose instead of malto dextrin or does the Roeselare yeast not eat that up?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Could I used lactose instead of malto dextrin or does the Roeselare yeast not eat that up?

Maybe?
This thread had some discussion
https://www.beeradvocate.com/commun...with-sours-using-wyeast-lambic-blends.260621/

How far along is your fermentation? You might not need the maltodextrin.

 

[Beeru]

I've been reading about how malto dextrin is horrible poison and you should never use it in any food or drink. Is this all hippie nonsense or is there legitimate concern about it?

 

[RPh_Guy]

I've been reading about how malto dextrin is horrible poison and you should never use it in any food or drink. Is this all hippie nonsense or is there legitimate concern about it?

It sounds like a good way to derail the thread, LOL!
I feel confident* telling you in this beer it's perfectly safe. The microbes eat the MD. Om nom nom.

I also feel confident telling you it's NOT "safe" to drink alcohol.
1. https://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer-causes/diet-physical-activity/alcohol-use-and-cancer.html
2. https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/824237
So I do find these type of questions a little amusing

*FWIW I'm a licensed clinical pharmacist (PharmD) board certified in critical care medicine (BCCCP).

----
Anyway it's my first time using this blend. I had the batch fermenting in the low 70s and had to cool it down because there was a lot of blow off. I did mash rather low, so maybe that's part of it.
Also I just have to tell people I LOVE the breathable silicone airlocks I got from More Beer. They are everything I ever dreamed an airlock could be.

 

[Shenanigans]

Maybe?
This thread had some discussion
https://www.beeradvocate.com/commun...with-sours-using-wyeast-lambic-blends.260621/

How far along is your fermentation? You might not need the maltodextrin.

Thanks for your reply.
I didn't brew it yet but plan on giving it a go sometime.
Will check if I can source some maltodextrin here at one of the online brew shops. Don't want to have to order it on it's own and pay extra shipping costs for it. Lactose I can get in the drug store.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Thanks for your reply.
I didn't brew it yet but plan on giving it a go sometime.
Will check if I can source some maltodextrin here at one of the online brew shops. Don't want to have to order it on it's own and pay extra shipping costs for it. Lactose I can get in the drug store.

I likes 'em sour, so every subsequent time i've brewed this i pitch the sacc yeast along with the Roeselare blend (and no maltodextrine). Turns out pretty balanced, but if you like it SUPER sour, you could do Roe from the beginning AND add MD in the secondary.

I pitched only the Roeselare blend (gives the LAB a head start) so personally I probably won't be adding any MD. If you're having trouble getting MD I would definitely plan on not using it.
One less thing to worry about.

 

[Shenanigans]

Just ordered the sour blend yeast and will go for the method of adding it at the start with US-05. Does oaking this really enhance it or it's just as good without oak?
Unfortunately I only have access to chips so would have to do it for a short period before bottling.

Thanks.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Chips would be fine, but all the mucking about with putting them in, taking them out, etc. could introduce more oxygen than you'd like. One option is to make a tincture of red wine and oak cubes. I, myself, use a self-toasted oak dowel to give it just a hint of oak, but more so to promote a bit of oxygen ingress, which (to me) is important when making a Flanders Red.

RodenbachClone

• cactusgarrett
• May 12, 2010

Souring stage with a home-toasted oak dowel.

 

[Shenanigans]

Chips would be fine, but all the mucking about with putting them in, taking them out, etc. could introduce more oxygen than you'd like. One option is to make a tincture of red wine and oak cubes. I, myself, use a self-toasted oak dowel to give it just a hint of oak, but more so to promote a bit of oxygen ingress, which (to me) is important when making a Flanders Red.

RodenbachClone

• cactusgarrett
• May 12, 2010

Souring stage with a home-toasted oak dowel.

Sounds like a good idea with the oak dowel but as it will be my first sour beer I might just leave it.
Another off topic question is if anyone has a decent recipe that uses the 3763 blend that isn't a Flanders red?
Something a bit different so I wouldn't have two similar sours at the same time.
Something light colored like a Lambic or a dark sour beer even.

Thanks.

 

[andrewmaixner]

Sounds like a good idea with the oak dowel but as it will be my first sour beer I might just leave it.
Another off topic question is if anyone has a decent recipe that uses the 3763 blend that isn't a Flanders red?
Something a bit different so I wouldn't have two similar sours at the same time.
Something light colored like a Lambic or a dark sour beer even.

Thanks.

3767 is often used for the Consecration clone recipe. Also add some commercial dregs if you want it to sour in 6 months instead of 2 years, for the first use.

 

[Shenanigans]

3767 is often used for the Consecration clone recipe. Also add some commercial dregs if you want it to sour in 6 months instead of 2 years, for the first use.

Thanks for the suggestion, must look into a recipe for that. For the dregs I probably can't get that beer here in Europe but you have given me the idea of adding the dregs from a few bottles of Orval

 

[andrewmaixner]

Thanks for the suggestion, must look into a recipe for that. For the dregs I probably can't get that beer here in Europe but you have given me the idea of adding the dregs from a few bottles of Orval

Orval wont sour, it doesn't contain lactic acid bacteria.
I meant that any unpasteurized sour beer (jolly pumpkin, etc) should give you acid-tolerant and hop-tolerant bacteria that will help sour faster.

 

[Shenanigans]

Orval wont sour, it doesn't contain lactic acid bacteria.
I meant that any unpasteurized sour beer (jolly pumpkin, etc) should give you acid-tolerant and hop-tolerant bacteria that will help sour faster.

Ah OK, see what you mean. Not sure which beer in Europe might fit the bill but I live near Belgium so I'm sure I could find something.

 

[Shenanigans]

So I'm going to brew this for sure next month sometime, I have all the required ingredients just need to find the time.
As it's my first sour beer I'll probably have a few more newbie questions before brewing and during the fermentation.

I'm going to ferment in the primary with both US-05 and WY3763.
At what gravity should I transfer to the secondary or the 3763 ferments so slowly it will look like it is finished when the US-05 is done?
Also how much headspace should I give it in the secondary and can I completely close it or is it better to have an air lock?
I'll be using a glass 5 gallon big mouth bubbler for the secondary.

Thanks.

 

[andrewmaixner]

Also how much headspace should I give it in the secondary and can I completely close it or is it better to have an air lock?

Advice: you can NEVER completely close anything in secondary. Just don't even try it, save yourself the risk. An airlock is not hard to use, and S-locks hold liquid for many months.

 

[Shenanigans]

Advice: you can NEVER completely close anything in secondary. Just don't even try it, save yourself the risk. An airlock is not hard to use, and S-locks hold liquid for many months.

OK, thanks for the advice. I normally never do a secondary but in this case it is needed.
Just wondering how active the 3763 will be and how much head space I will need.
Looking at cactusgarrett's picture above 1/2 a gallon should be OK.