Robust Porter - need help with water

[griffi]

I run the ingredients in Brun water and I can't get my mash ph above about 4.7 - I must be missing something - I'm using RO water

 

[FirstAidBrewing]

What is the grain bill? Darker malts will lower the mash ph naturally, so if you're staring with RO water, you may not get much higher without adding some buffers

 

[griffi]

Edited post to include grain bill. I feel stuck to ro water because I haven't sent my water off to ward lab yet

 

[FirstAidBrewing]

I would do 50/50 RO and tap water then. Your tap water can only raise the ph as compared to RO, so it may get you in the range you need.

 

[Yooper]

I don't think that's possible. Can you put up a screen shot of the bru'n water info?

 

[griffi]

I would but I'm at an Irish pub now don't ya know

 

[griffi]

I tried both the brown and black balanced targets and added a bunch of stuff including baking soda - still can't figure it out

 

[FirstAidBrewing]

I really feel that the RO is hurting you in this instance. You need harder water for a successful porter.

 

[Yooper]

I tried both the brown and black balanced targets and added a bunch of stuff including baking soda - still can't figure it out

don't pick a "target" and add stuff until you get the pH right.

Your only "target" is to get the mash pH at 5.5 or so. Then you can add things for flavor, like calcium chloride.

You may or may not need baking soda to raise the pH, but don't add "a bunch of stuff" until you have the pH right.

 

[GnenieGone]

I run the ingredients in Brun water and I can't get my mash ph above about 4.7 - I must be missing something - I'm using RO water

When I type this into EZwaterCalculator with 100% RO, comes up with 5.6ph. Who's wrong??

Add to Strike and then again Sparge: 2g Gypsum, 5g Calcium Cloride, 2g Epsom salt, 3g Baking soda, and 1ml Lactic Acid.
This ends up at 5.5ph.

Water Profile:
Step 5: View Resulting Water Profile
Calcium Magnesium Sodium Chloride Sulfate Chloride / Sulfate
(Ca ppm) (Mg ppm) (Na ppm) (Cl ppm) (SO4 ppm) Ratio
: 107 11 48 142 111 1.27

 

[Yooper]

I have bru'n water on this computer, but I don't know how dark your "dark crystal" is, nor your chocolate malt nor your black malt. So I went with my best guess, using what I buy. I come up with 5.34 without any additions at all. so something is not right with your input into the bru'n water.

 

[Yooper]

When I type this into EZwaterCalculator with 100% RO, comes up with 5.6ph. Who's wrong??

Add to Strike and then again Sparge: 2g Gypsum, 5g Calcium Cloride, 2g Epsom salt, 3g Baking soda, and 1ml Lactic Acid

Water Profile:
Step 5: View Resulting Water Profile
Calcium Magnesium Sodium Chloride Sulfate Chloride / Sulfate
(Ca ppm) (Mg ppm) (Na ppm) (Cl ppm) (SO4 ppm) Ratio
: 107 11 48 142 111 1.27

No, definitely NOT!

You wouldn't add baking soda, AND lactic acid. lactic acid reduces pH, while baking soda increases the pH. You never would use both.

EZ water is never close to my actual pH measurement, so I don't use it but it shouldn't let you ever use that profile. The chloride and sulfate are both too high, and you never use acid and alkali together.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Are you inputing the right water to grist ratio in Bru'N Water? If it think's you're mashing ridiculously thick then I suppose I could see the pH being low.

Also, agreed, do NOT add baking soda AND acid. You're wasting both. If you want sodium (in a more English style porter, I like elevated sodium, maybe 50ppm), I'd use canning salt and dial back the calcium chloride accordingly.

I wouldn't be surprised given the grain bill if you'd need some baking soda to hit a 5.4-5.5 pH (I don't like Porters or Stouts mashed below pH 5.4, preferring closer to 5.5), but agreed it's highly unlikely you'd be as low as it's saying you will be. Gotta be something you're not doing correctly in the calculator.

 

[GnenieGone]

No, definitely NOT!

You wouldn't add baking soda, AND lactic acid. lactic acid reduces pH, while baking soda increases the pH. You never would use both.

EZ water is never close to my actual pH measurement, so I don't use it but it shouldn't let you ever use that profile. The chloride and sulfate are both too high, and you never use acid and alkali together.

That's why I posted it....figured you respond one way or the other. What do you use that's more accurate for water profiles? The baking soda is for sodium, not pH.

 

[Yooper]

That's why I posted it....figured you respond one way or the other. What do you use that's more accurate for water profiles?

I use brun' water- but I don't typically do "profiles" as I find that they are wildly inaccurate. I will look at Mosher's pale ale profile and that one is good- except I don't like 300 ppm of sulfate in most of my IPAs or APAs. That's too much for me.

You only need as much alkalinity (generally in the form of bicarbonate in the spreadsheets) to hit your mash pH, so that doesn't have a target or recommended amount.

for calcium, yeast flocculates better with 50 ppm or more, so 50 ppm+ is a reasonable target. (But not too much, under 100 ppm is desireable).

The "flavor" ions are like spices in cooking- for flavor and really a matter of taste. A little is fine, and usually below the flavor threshold, but too much can be disasterous. Malt has plenty of magnesium, so you never need to add it unless you want the flavor it brings. It has a "sour"ish flavor, and in larger amounts it can be displeasing. (Stay under 25 ppm in all cases). In even larger amounts, it is a laxative (remember "Milk of Magnesia"?- that's magnesium).

Chloride brings a fullness to the beer, so it's often supplemented in malty beers when using RO water. Sulfate enhances dryness, so is often used in bitter beers for that dry finish. Too much of either (or in the case above, both) can create a "mineral" taste to the beer.

"Less is more" is a good rule of thumb, until you know what you love. I don't love a high sulfate level, even in my IPAs except for one recipe I do, but others enjoy it at as much as 300 ppm. I go with about half of that most of the time in my hoppy beers.

It's like seasoning- I like more salt in my chicken soup than some do, but not as much as others. Think of those salts as "seasoning" in the beer, and that will give you a good start.

 

[Yooper]

That's why I posted it....figured you respond one way or the other. What do you use that's more accurate for water profiles? The baking soda is for sodium, not pH.

And why that much sodium? What does it bring to the flavor of this beer? At 48 ppm, I'd say absolutely nothing to speak of. But it does bring alkalinity- and the acid is added to counteract it.

Instead, if you want to increase the sodium, use NaCl2, table salt. It increases the sodium, and chloride, both of which would be beneficial.

And it's not clear here, so I wanted to make sure others understood- NEVER add baking soda to sparge water. You never want to add alkalinity to sparge water, ever, ever, ever.

 

[griffi]

having bought this as a kit from NB, I don't know the exact color of the ingredients, but just guessing from what beersmith lists and using a ratio of 1.5 qt/lb of grain, I'm still coming out at a ph of 4.8. That's with no additions.

 

[Yooper]

having bought this as a kit from NB, I don't know the exact color of the ingredients, but just guessing from what beersmith lists and using a ratio of 1.5 qt/lb of grain, I'm still coming out at a ph of 4.8. That's with no additions.

No, that's just not right. Even if you used 500 SRM for the black malt, that's not possible.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I use brun' water- but I don't typically do "profiles" as I find that they are wildly inaccurate. I will look at Mosher's pale ale profile and that one is good- except I don't like 300 ppm of sulfate in most of my IPAs or APAs. That's too much for me.

You only need as much alkalinity (generally in the form of bicarbonate in the spreadsheets) to hit your mash pH, so that doesn't have a target or recommended amount.

for calcium, yeast flocculates better with 50 ppm or more, so 50 ppm+ is a reasonable target. (But not too much, under 100 ppm is desireable).

The "flavor" ions are like spices in cooking- for flavor and really a matter of taste. A little is fine, and usually below the flavor threshold, but too much can be disasterous. Malt has plenty of magnesium, so you never need to add it unless you want the flavor it brings. It has a "sour"ish flavor, and in larger amounts it can be displeasing. (Stay under 25 ppm in all cases). In even larger amounts, it is a laxative (remember "Milk of Magnesia"?- that's magnesium).

Chloride brings a fullness to the beer, so it's often supplemented in malty beers when using RO water. Sulfate enhances dryness, so is often used in bitter beers for that dry finish. Too much of either (or in the case above, both) can create a "mineral" taste to the beer.

"Less is more" is a good rule of thumb, until you know what you love. I don't love a high sulfate level, even in my IPAs except for one recipe I do, but others enjoy it at as much as 300 ppm. I go with about half of that most of the time in my hoppy beers.

It's like seasoning- I like more salt in my chicken soup than some do, but not as much as others. Think of those salts as "seasoning" in the beer, and that will give you a good start.

This. I also use Bru'N Water for my calculations, and I never target established profiles.

I've settled on a few general profiles I default to. My "malty" profile is ~80ppm sulfate and ~120ppm chloride. If it's a darker malty English style (most of my Porters and Stouts), I'll bump sodium from my ~25ppm normal level to about ~50ppm. Otherwise I leave it alone.

Hoppy or bitter beers I to ~70ppm chloride and ~150-175ppm sulfate, and leave sodium alone.

For "balanced" beers I tend to target ~70-80ppm both sulfate and chloride, leaving sodium alone.

And then for beers with minimal water impact, I add no salt/mineral additions unless baking soda is critical to bring up mash pH (never had it happen though), but often still add substantial acid to lower pH. My base sulfate and chloride levels are ~30-40 ppm or so, enough that it may not work for a Pilsner, but otherwise pretty modest, and my calcium is usually ~40ppm, a little less than ideal but workable.

I very, very rarely bump magnesium, as it's usually not needed.

And then in all cases will tweak with baking soda or lactic acid as necessary to hit my mash pH (what pH I target depends on the beer).

 

[Yooper]

having bought this as a kit from NB, I don't know the exact color of the ingredients, but just guessing from what beersmith lists and using a ratio of 1.5 qt/lb of grain, I'm still coming out at a ph of 4.8. That's with no additions.

No, that's just not right. Even if you used 500 SRM for the black malt, that's not possible.

Dark crystal is about 75 SRM, and Simpson's chocolate malt is probably 350-400 SRM. The black malt might be 500 SRM at a max. Marris otter is about 3, and wheat malt is about 2.

That may get you low, like 5.2-5.3, but not below that.

 

[griffi]

It appears that I had incorrectly listed the Black Malt and Chocolate Malt as crystal malts. when I changed them to roasted malts in the grain type drop down box, the estimated room temp mash went to 5.3... I know just enough to be dangerous it would seem.

 

[Qhrumphf]

It appears that I had incorrectly listed the Black Malt and Chocolate Malt as crystal malts. when I changed them to roasted malts in the grain type drop down box, the estimated room temp mash went to 5.3... I know just enough to be dangerous it would seem.

That makes sense then.

I don't know the science behind it as to why, but it's been shown that while roasted malts don't seem to show a significant increase in acid as they get darker (the amount of acid provided by a 300L chocolate and a 600L black malt isn't going to be major), crystal malts increase acid much more as they darken, and Bru'N Water takes that into account. If you've got several hundred lovibond malt entered as a crystal malt, no wonder the spreadsheet would project it so low.

 

[Yooper]

It appears that I had incorrectly listed the Black Malt and Chocolate Malt as crystal malts. when I changed them to roasted malts in the grain type drop down box, the estimated room temp mash went to 5.3... I know just enough to be dangerous it would seem.

That does seem more correct.

So, you may want to add some baking soda to the mash (NOT THE SPARGE!!!!) along with some calcium chloride (not gypsum).

Get the calcium to 50-90 ppm or so, the chloride 50-100 ppm, and just enough baking soda to have your mash pH be around 5.5.

for the sparge, 100% RO water is fine. You can split the calcium chloride in the mash and sparge if it drives your mash pH too low to use it all in the mash.

 

[GnenieGone]

Thanks Fellas, for the information. I recently brewed where I didn't follow EZ. Just 80%RO/20%city (Austin, hard, high pH), along with 3ml lactic in strike. Had the highest efficiency ever, 72% with DIPA. Been pondering those results. But not sure what to make of it.

and offtopic....but do you guys mash your dark grains along with base malts? I ask because, I've started 90min mashes. Would this add bitter or a harsh component say to an imperial stout?

 

[Yooper]

Thanks Fellas, for the information. I recently brewed where I didn't follow EZ. Just 80%RO/20%city (Austin, hard, high pH), along with 3ml lactic in strike. Had the highest efficiency ever, 72% with DIPA. Been pondering those results. But not sure what to make of it.

and offtopic....but do you guys mash your dark grains along with base malts? I ask because, I've started 90min mashes. Would this add bitter or a harsh component say to an imperial stout?

Not to my taste. I know that Gordon Strong recommends it, but I love my stouts and don't add dark grains at vorlauf or mash separately. Remember, your kettle pH is going to drop as soon as you add the wort from that separate mash anyway, so the mash pH might be ok but then your kettle pH would be much lower. But I tend to not use many malts like black patent which give that ashy/acrid/astringent taste anyway.

And, I"m sure "fellas" means ya'll, but just in case you didn't know I'm a female. I'm actually about three hours south of you, at least at this time of year, and a member of the Austin Zealots. I've never been to a meeting or anything, but I consider myself one of them!

 

[Qhrumphf]

Thanks Fellas, for the information. I recently brewed where I didn't follow EZ. Just 80%RO/20%city (Austin, hard, high pH), along with 3ml lactic in strike. Had the highest efficiency ever, 72% with DIPA. Been pondering those results. But not sure what to make of it.

and offtopic....but do you guys mash your dark grains along with base malts? I ask because, I've started 90min mashes. Would this add bitter or a harsh component say to an imperial stout?

I've never steeped my dark grains separately. I know others (like Gordon Strong) swear by it. But you have to account for the fact that if you get a proper range mash pH without the dark malts, once you add them back you're still getting the acidity they add anyway, which can drive wort and final beer pH lower than you may want. I have never bothered for that reason.

 

[GnenieGone]

But I tend to not use many malts like black patent which give that ashy/acrid/astringent taste anyway.

Yeah, don't care what others say, BP adds that ashy sense/taste....agreed.

 

[griffi]

Thanks Yooper! Followed this advice and the adjustments were easy. Much better than the mess I had before. Just a little chalk, baking soda, and Calcium Chloride and I'm right in there.

 

[GnenieGone]

Not to my taste. I know that Gordon Strong recommends it, but I love my stouts and don't add dark grains at vorlauf or mash separately. Remember, your kettle pH is going to drop as soon as you add the wort from that separate mash anyway, so the mash pH might be ok but then your kettle pH would be much lower. But I tend to not use many malts like black patent which give that ashy/acrid/astringent taste anyway.

And, I"m sure "fellas" means ya'll, but just in case you didn't know I'm a female. I'm actually about three hours south of you, at least at this time of year, and a member of the Austin Zealots. I've never been to a meeting or anything, but I consider myself one of them!

Apologies, 2nd time this week I've been tagged for mis-gendering....a word?? The women in our family hate beer...so it's just not normal for me to think in those terms. Think Austin Zealots are up in north part of town...which seems like 100miles from here (south west, 5min from Jester King) in traffic these days.

 

[Yooper]

Apologies, 2nd time this week I've been tagged for mis-gendering....a word?? The women in our family hate beer...so it's just not normal for me to think in those terms. Think Austin Zealots are up in north part of town...which seems like 100miles from here (south west, 5min from Jester King) in traffic these days.

Yes, but they are one of the best homebrew clubs in the US. They have weekly events, a two-time Ninkasi winner, help with studying for the BJCP exam, etc. Two of them are coming to visit me for the day/night on Monday but I almost never get to Austin myself. I go once a year, usually, for 3 days, and that's about it.

Last year, we went to JK and as we were driving by we saw a sign for Last Stand so we stopped in. they had just opened, and the beer was really good!

anyway, sorry for the thread hijack OP. I think your recipe is good, and it'll make a nice robust porter, especially now that you've got a grip on the mash pH and additions.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Thanks Yooper! Followed this advice and the adjustments were easy. Much better than the mess I had before. Just a little chalk, baking soda, and Calcium Chloride and I'm right in there.

Don't use chalk, ever. It dissolves so slowly (if at all) as to make it useless. If you need to raise calcium in addition to pH, use slaked lime. Otherwise, use more baking soda.

 

[GnenieGone]

Yes, but they are one of the best homebrew clubs in the US. They have weekly events, a two-time Ninkasi winner, help with studying for the BJCP exam, etc. Two of them are coming to visit me for the day/night on Monday but I almost never get to Austin myself. I go once a year, usually, for 3 days, and that's about it.

Last year, we went to JK and as we were driving by we saw a sign for Last Stand so we stopped in. they had just opened, and the beer was really good!

anyway, sorry for the thread hijack OP. I think your recipe is good, and it'll make a nice robust porter, especially now that you've got a grip on the mash pH and additions.

Mark Schoope? Bought his Helles from Rogness the other night...tasty if not my style. The SoCo Brewing guys wanted me to do a tasting for a nationwide competition back in Oct? Some dude from this club, was going to guide us. Unfortunately, that was the day we had like 11in of rain, couldn't make it. Soco guys say same dude is putting on a tasting school for free, to be certified I guess, this spring. They've invited me to join. Looking forward to the new experience.

 

[Yooper]

Don't use chalk, ever. It dissolves so slowly (if at all) as to make it useless. If you need to raise calcium in addition to pH, use slaked lime. Otherwise, use more baking soda.

Exactly! No chalk (calcium carbonate), ever. Baking soda is the cheap and easy way, but the lime works also. You rarely need to raise alkalinity, as usually the pH is too high, not too low, but in beers with a lot of dark grains in RO water, there are occasions where it may happen.