RO water ingredient inventory

[pvtpublic]

I'm about to start building my water from scratch, and I'm curious, what modifiers should I stock? I'm new to water adjustments, but I'm pretty confident in the process, etc. I'll be brewing the full spectrum of styles.

So, for you RO brewers, what do you keep on hand?

 

[VikeMan]

I build from distilled.

For most beers: CaCl2, CaSO4, Lactic Acid
Sometimes: NaHCO3, NaCl

 

[AlexKay]

I like 10% phosphoric acid (easier to measure), but potato, potato.

You could get some Epsom salt (MgSO4) and target magnesium, too, but I don't think it would do anything for your beer.

CW is that NaCl should be un-iodized.

0.01 g resolution on your scale is nice to have.

 

[pvtpublic]

It's a 5bbl system, so I don't have to be overly precise

 

[wsmith1625]

CW is that NaCl should be un-iodized.

Kosher salt works here

 

[pvtpublic]

So, CaCl2, CaSO4, MaSO4, NaCl, NaHCO3, and acid.

All those ought to cover everything right?

 

[tracer bullet]

MgSO4 not MaSO4 but otherwise yes you can do just about anything with them.

 

[pvtpublic]

Oh, yeah, that's right haha

 

[pvtpublic]

What about CaCO3, though? Like if I need to add calcium with the carbonate, instead of sodium, or am I over complicating it?

 

[AlexKay]

As I posted, I kind of think MgSO4 is unnecessary, but as long as you don't go over 10 ppm or so Mg2+, it won't hurt anything.

Don't add calcium carbonate. It doesn't dissolve well, so it may not give you calcium and buffering where you want it (the mash), and it may give you buffering where you don't want it (the fermentation). Most of the time the amount of NaHCO3 you'll want to add will leave you well below the taste threshold for sodium, and even when it doesn't, a little salt actually improves dark beers (which is where you'll usually want the extra base anyway).

In the unlikely situation that you need more calcium and don't want either chloride or sulfate, I've used calcium lactate, but I don't know anyone else who does that.

 

[pvtpublic]

As I posted, I kind of think MgSO4 is unnecessary, but as long as you don't go over 10 ppm or so Mg2+, it won't hurt anything.

Don't add calcium carbonate. It doesn't dissolve well, so it may not give you calcium and buffering where you want it (the mash), and it may give you buffering where you don't want it (the fermentation). Most of the time the amount of NaHCO3 you'll want to add will leave you well below the taste threshold for sodium, and even when it doesn't, a little salt actually improves dark beers (which is where you'll usually want the extra base anyway).

In the unlikely situation that you need more calcium and don't want either chloride or sulfate, I've used calcium lactate, but I don't know anyone else who does that.

I'll be adding everything directly to the mash, so would Calcium carbonate still not incorporate very well?

 

[AlexKay]

I'll be adding everything directly to the mash, so would Calcium carbonate still not incorporate very well?

It takes a long time to dissolve. I would absolutely not add it to the mash.

 

[pvtpublic]

Ok, it's settled then.

Get it?

 

[doug293cz]

What about CaCO3, though? Like if I need to add calcium with the carbonate, instead of sodium, or am I over complicating it?

CaCO3 does not dissolve well. If you need to add both calcium and base (typically only for dark beers), and don't want more Na, then Ca(OH)2 (pickling lime) is a better choice

Brew on

 

[tracer bullet]

CaCO3 does not dissolve well. If you need to add both calcium and base (typically only for dark beers), and don't want more Na, then Ca(OH)2 (pickling lime) is a better choice

Brew on

Agreed, and with RO water I believe OK. I used it in tap water and it was awful. I forget the details, @Silver_Is_Money here and maybe others explained it, but it... doesn't work if certain other minerals already there? So even if it's good in RO maybe there's an order of additions to consider? Maybe that stuff needs to be first? I stopped using it altogether.

It's also a dangerous thing to handle (it can be done, safely, but you really have to be careful with it and get all the facts ahead of time). And yeah - it doesn't fit all the possible situations.

Anyhow, it's an option, but there's a good amount of additional knowledge needed.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The many negatives regarding the use of Ca(OH)2 are discussed here:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...mash-water-or-in-the-mash.690896/post-9078294

 

[doug293cz]

The many negatives regarding the use of Ca(OH)2 are discussed here:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...mash-water-or-in-the-mash.690896/post-9078294

But, if your water has enough HCO3 that adding Ca(OH)2 will cause CaCO3 to precipitate out, you wouldn't be in the position of needing to add any base (to adjust mash pH) would you?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

But, if your water has enough HCO3 that adding Ca(OH)2 will cause CaCO3 to precipitate out, you wouldn't be in the position of needing to add any base (to adjust mash pH) would you?

It depends upon the measure of the acid nature of the grist. A robust Stout or Porter bring a lot of acid along with them.

As an example, see this example of real world experience:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...mash-water-or-in-the-mash.690896/post-9238210

 

[jerrylotto]

It's also useful to have some Campden tabs (potassium or sodium metabisulfite).on hand to treat for chlorine or chloramines.

 

[pvtpublic]

It's also useful to have some Campton tabs (potassium or sodium metabisulfite).on hand to treat for chlorine or chloramines.

I'm using RO

 

[pvtpublic]

I keep seeing the term "adding base", what means this?

 

[jerrylotto]

I'm using RO

I understand that, and chlorine and chloramines are not a component of reverse osmosis purified water... I also use RO but it occasionally runs out and I need to use tap water. Having some metabisulfite on hand is for hedging bets not regular use.

 

[VikeMan]

I keep seeing the term "adding base", what means this?

In this context, it would mean adding something that raises the mash pH.

 

[pvtpublic]

I understand that, and chlorine and chloramines are not a component of reverse osmosis purified water... I also use RO but it occasionally runs out and I need to use tap water. Having some metabisulfite on hand is for hedging bets not regular use.

Ok, that makes sense. However, I have a very large tank, which shouldn't be an issue.

 

[hottpeper13]

The reason I use RO water it because my well water has 400 ppm alkalinity. So when I brew a stout or porter I mix it half and half so that the RA is 200 and the pH hits at 5.5-5.6

 

[pvtpublic]

The reason I use RO water it because my well water has 400 ppm alkalinity. So when I brew a stout or porter I mix it half and half so that the RA is 200 and the pH hits at 5.5-5.6

I'll probably start doing something like that too, once a get a carbon filter and a test kit.

 

[pvtpublic]

Alright, thanks for all the help so far!

I have another question - in BeerSmith, it calls for baking soda. Is it referring to the usual sodium bicarbonate? Or calcium bicarbonate? Would using calcium bicarbonate alter the calcium additions of the other minerals? Does that make sense?

 

[VikeMan]

I have another question - in BeerSmith, it calls for baking soda. Is it referring to the usual sodium bicarbonate?

Baking soda is Sodium Bicarbonate.

 

[AlexKay]

Calcium bicarbonate exists in solution but not as a solid. (If you dry out the solution, you get calcium carbonate.). So you can’t add that.

You want to target a minimum value of calcium (50 ppm, or more, depending on who you ask), but too much calcium isn’t really ever an issue. You could add too much calcium chloride or calcium sulfate, but it would be too much because of the chloride or sulfate, not the calcium. Calcium pretty much has no sensory footprint and it only does good things for the various chemical reactions that go on in the mash.

Edit: Enh, maybe not. But I'll stand by my statement that generally you're not going to have to worry about too much calcium.

Sodium has a taste (salty) but you usually don’t have enough to notice it, or (in the case of dark beers where you add it on purpose) the effect on taste is positive.

Magnesium, on the other hand, can cause harsh and unpleasant tastes as you get above 10-20 ppm, and cause GI problems if you get way above it.

 

[AlexKay]

You could also think about adding zinc, both at the end of the boil (to promote healthy fermentation) or before packaging (for better head retention). The problem is that food-grade zinc salts are hard to find at the home-brew scale.

 

[pvtpublic]

Baking soda is Sodium Bicarbonate.

Right, that's why I said "the usual sodium bicarbonate". I was curious because most suppliers carry the calcium bicarbonate, and wasn't sure if that was what was being referenced.

Edit: I misread it as bicarbonate, not carbonate

Calcium bicarbonate exists in solution but not as a solid. (If you dry out the solution, you get calcium carbonate.). So you can’t add that.

You want to target a minimum value of calcium (50 ppm, or more, depending on who you ask), but too much calcium isn’t really ever an issue. You could add too much calcium chloride or calcium sulfate, but it would be too much because of the chloride or sulfate, not the calcium. Calcium pretty much has no sensory footprint and it only does good things for the various chemical reactions that go on in the mash.

Edit: Enh, maybe not. But I'll stand by my statement that generally you're not going to have to worry about too much calcium.

Sodium has a taste (salty) but you usually don’t have enough to notice it, or (in the case of dark beers where you add it on purpose) the effect on taste is positive.

Magnesium, on the other hand, can cause harsh and unpleasant tastes as you get above 10-20 ppm, and cause GI problems if you get way above it.

That helps a ton! Thanks!

 

[rhys333]

I use calcium chloride and gypsum to adjust for the various water profiles. Sometimes a little canning salt.

Occasionally baking soda, if needed to keep the mash pH up in roasty beers. And then of course lactic acid, also for pH control.

 

[jerrylotto]

Just added some zinc oxide to my arsenal. Calcium sulfate, choride and carbonate allow me to set Ca levels without throwing anion concentrations askew. Likewise for sodium chloride and bicarbonate for Na levels.

 

[AlexKay]

Zinc oxide is not soluble at all in water, and I don’t think the pH of wort is low enough to affect that.

 

[pvtpublic]

What is the zinc oxide for?

 

[jerrylotto]

Zinc oxide is not soluble at all in water, and I don’t think the pH of wort is low enough to affect that.

Zinc helps fermentation. I can dissolve the zinc oxide in either phosphoric acid or lactic acid before mixing it in.

 

[AlexKay]

Zinc helps fermentation. I can dissolve the zinc oxide in either phosphoric acid or lactic acid before mixing it in.

I usually target 0.1 mg/L (0.2 for lagers). I use tiny amounts of ZnSO4(aq) that's sold in a dropper bottle for supplements (unflavored, of course!) If I remember correctly, 1-2 mg/L after fermentation helps promote head retention, but I don't mess with that.

 

[jerrylotto]

I usually target 0.1 mg/L (0.2 for lagers). I use tiny amounts of ZnSO4(aq) that's sold in a dropper bottle for supplements (unflavored, of course!) If I remember correctly, 1-2 mg/L after fermentation helps promote head retention, but I don't mess with that.

Yes, like Mg it doesn't take a lot to do the job, but it works a lot better if it is present.