RO vs Distilled water for brewing?

[jcav]

I go to the supermarket by my house (Publix) and use the Glacier R/O water machine. I fill up 5, five gallon jugs for $8.75 and my beer tastes great after I add calcium chloride, calcium sulfate, or both depending on the recipe. I haven't used distilled water but it would be interesting to brew the same beer and use one with R/O and the other with distilled, to see if there really is a difference and if one tastes better. Anyway R/O filled at the supermarket works for my needs.

John

 

[Holden Caulfield]

Hi all !, I'm new to making Beer, a couple of years now. I love it much better than store bought, I keep it simple and cheap so my question is why not use boiled water? I make extract beer, it's an Ale. I boile 4 1/2 gallons for at least 20 minutes then add the 6.6 pounds LME for a 10 Gallon batch. When time comes for the cooling. I use 6 gallons of refrigerated water that was saved from using the chiller on the previous batch, that was also boiled for 20 minutes and in my opinion it's better than if I use tap water, I was told that the LME had all the minerals I needed. Am I wrong in doing this?
Any input on this would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

Yes, LME has the all the nutrients from the original mash so the yeast will be happy.

However, boiled water is not a substitute for RO or distilled. Boiled water will cause some of the carbonates and calcium to precipitate out, reducing the alkalinity, which may be very important for mashing all grain. It will also boil off chlorine. However, it will leave behind all other salts as well as it will not boil off Chloramines which are now used by many municipalities to help sanitize tap water. 1 Camden tablet per 20 gallons can neutralize chloramines. The Chloramines and other remaining salts may result in undesirable flavors and off flavors, depending your water supply. If you have good water use it. If not RO is the lowest cost and easiest to build a profile from.

 

[VikeMan]

I was told that the LME had all the minerals I needed. Am I wrong in doing this?

LME does contain the minerals from the manufacturer's mash. Because of this, a good argument can be made that the best approach for extract batches would be to use distilled or RO water, with so salts added. The counter to that is since we don't know what specific mineral profile was in the manufacturer's water, it's impossible to say whether anything should be added for a given style/preference. Of course, brewing all grain makes that dilemma disappear.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

I go to the supermarket by my house (Publix) and use the Glacier R/O water machine. I fill up 5, five gallon jugs for $8.75 and my beer tastes great after I add calcium chloride, calcium sulfate, or both depending on the recipe. I haven't used distilled water but it would be interesting to brew the same beer and use one with R/O and the other with distilled, to see if there really is a difference and if one tastes better. Anyway R/O filled at the supermarket works for my needs.

John

I use the supermarket Kiosk (not prepackaged) water for every batch I make and check it with a TDS meter before using. After 40+ batches, never had a reading above 6 ppm. For all intent and purpose it is the same as distilled and all things being equal, the beers will come out the same. One batch will just cost about 5 bucks more.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

.... why not use boiled water? I make extract beer, it's an Ale. I boile 4 1/2 gallons for at least 20 minutes then add the 6.6 pounds LME for a 10 Gallon batch. When time comes for the cooling. I use 6 gallons of refrigerated water that was saved from using the chiller on the previous batch, that was also boiled for 20 minutes and in my opinion it's better than if I use tap water, I was told that the LME had all the minerals I needed.

Am I wrong in doing this?

It works for you, so keep doing it.

Your approach may not work for others, as their water has different "attributes" (minerals, alkalinity, ...) than your water.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

LME does contain the minerals from the manufacturer's mash. Because of this, a good argument can be made that the best approach for extract batches would be to use distilled or RO water, with so salts added. The counter to that is since we don't know what specific mineral profile was in the manufacturer's water, it's impossible to say whether anything should be added for a given style/preference.

Brewing Engineering, starting at about p 197, offers insights into manufacturers water. p 198 has a "Salt Adjustments for Style" for one of the manufacturers - I've used it and it works (for me anyway). Following "water gurus" into other home brewing forums will yield additional information on manufacturers water.

There is this idea of adding salts in the glass to "dial in" the flavor profile for a beer. I've found that it works for beers made with DME and with all-grain.

I'll concede that one may not be able to know in advance the specific mineral profiles that are necessary to do PPM calculations.

I'm able to "season to taste" with various brands of DME. It's not hard.

 

[jerrylotto]

I use a countertop RO filter run off the bathroom sink cold water tap. Unscrew the aerator and attach the filter. It can be wasteful (2.5 : 1) wastewater : RO, but I save the wastewater and use it in the garden or wash basin or swimming pool - anything but drinking really. It produces about 1 gal/hr so on brew day, I run it and refill my two clean 5 gal carboys with new RO water for my next batch. Always have 8-10 gal on hand.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

I am enjoying a delicious cup of coffee this morning freshly brewed with RO water I made yesterday. ️

 

[tracer bullet]

Hmm, maybe you are. But coffee, just like beer, benefits from certain minerals and hardness, etc. Pure RO or distilled water really isn't the best for it.

 

[IslandLizard]

and refill my two clean 5 gal carboys with new RO water for my next batch. Always have 8-10 gal on hand.

How long is that sitting there?
I know you're boiling it on brew day. For some reason I don't think drinking water should sit still or stored for very long without UV treatment, a sanitizer or other preservative added. Doesn't it get stale and musty over time?

 

[Yesfan]

Interesting thread topic. Subscribed.

Anyone got any recommendations for a good TDS meter? I'm looking at some on Amazon, but wanted to see what you guys recommend. Same can be said for a good RO setup.

Right now, I'm just using a typical carbon filter and camden tablet as treatment. Seems ok, but I'd like to send a sample to Wards Lab and see if there is a difference vs straight out of the tap.

 

[originator2020]

How long is that sitting there?
I know you're boiling it on brew day. For some reason I don't think drinking water should sit still or stored for very long without UV treatment, a sanitizer or other preservative added. Doesn't it get stale and musty over time?

I keep it in a refrigerator

 

[IslandLizard]

Seems ok, but I'd like to send a sample to Wards Lab and see if there is a difference vs straight out of the tap.

Not much gets "filtered" through a carbon block. Campen works faster and completely removes Chlorine (and Chloramines).

Better off putting that money toward an RO filter, a guaranteed 100% return on your money, for years.
That is, if your tap water is unsuitable for most brewing (and probably cooking and drinking too).

 

[tracer bullet]

Doesn't it get stale and musty over time?

If it's sitting out exposed to air, it changes flavor. Something about the ambient air mixing in and changing pH, etc. and altering the flavor. Not totally unlike how carbonated beer changes flavor because of getting more acidic w/ the Co2 in it. If water is in a closed jug it's fine.

 

[originator2020]

If it's sitting out exposed to air, it changes flavor. Something about the ambient air mixing in and changing pH, etc. and altering the flavor. Not totally unlike how carbonated beer changes flavor because of getting more acidic w/ the Co2 in it. If water is in a closed jug it's fine.

I'll boil 7 or 8 gallons of water with the lid off of the pot (15 gallon) and then when it's finished boiling (20 minutes) I put the lid on it and let it cool overnight, then I put it in sanitized 1 gallon jugs put the top on and put them in the refrigerator

 

[day_trippr]

[...]
Anyone got any recommendations for a good TDS meter? I'm looking at some on Amazon, but wanted to see what you guys recommend. Same can be said for a good RO setup.[...]

fwiw, I've been using this one for at least a decade now. I wouldn't spend much more on one than this...
https://www.amazon.com/HM-Digital-TDS-4-Measurement-Resolution/dp/B0002T6L5M
Cheers!

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

You can find out inline and handheld TDS meters here: https://www.buckeyehydro.com/meters-and-controllers/

 

[jerrylotto]

How long is that sitting there?
I know you're boiling it on brew day. For some reason I don't think drinking water should sit still or stored for very long without UV treatment, a sanitizer or other preservative added. Doesn't it get stale and musty over time?

No longer than bottles of distilled water sit on the supermarket shelves I know that can be a problem but I keep it in a cool, dark place and it rarely sits for more than a month. I also sanitize the carboys and I never seem to have any problem with the flavors. If I always brewed the same thing, I would probably add the salts up front, but my recipes and styles vary.

 

[jerrylotto]

Hmm, maybe you are. But coffee, just like beer, benefits from certain minerals and hardness, etc. Pure RO or distilled water really isn't the best for it.

On this off-topic, I sprinkle a few grains of sea salt on the dry grounds every time before I brew a pot of coffee and highly recommend trying this. It really cuts down on the bitterness.

 

[Maxkling]

On this off-topic, I sprinkle a few grains of sea salt on the dry grounds every time before I brew a pot of coffee and highly recommend trying this. It really cuts down on the bitterness.

You should try cold brewing, there will be almost 0 bitterness.

 

[tieflyer]

The upcoming release of ezRecipe 3.01 uses your final water profile to calculate the required salts and acid amounts for you. Look for it at the end of Fall 2020.

View attachment 699114

Ok, well is there a version for linux/open office? This looks like it will be a great addition.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Ok, well is there a version for linux/open office? This looks like it will be a great addition.

The upcoming 3.01.05 release for 2020 will be for users of Microsoft Excel while subsequent releases will be web based.

 

[deuc224]

I built something similar to HbrewO system and the only thing that I can think of doing more is getting a pump to get more GPH from it. Currently only doing 2 per hour but would like to maybe do 5 cuz when i brew 5 gallon batches have to run it for 5 hours.

 

[jerrylotto]

The only downside would be that you would be pushing more waste water out per RO collected. The filter you have is rated at a particular flow and you don't want to go too far off that.

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

It is perfectly fine to crank up the pressure on an RO membrane. You'll reach the pressure limits of other components before you over pressurize the membrane. However:
Those little goofy RO systems in a case use badly inferior prefilters - not really intended to be used as prefilters. So if you use a higher capacity RO membrane, and or crank the pressure up, make sure the prefilters are up to the task.

When you raise the pressure you get comparatively LESS concentrate ("waste water") relative to the amount of permeate ("RO water") produced. Therefore, you may want to think about changing your flow restrictor out depending upon your feedwater quality.

We stock residential-scale membranes (referred to as 1812 membranes because they are 1.8" in diameter and 12" long, nominal) in a number of capacities. They all fit in the same housing.

Capacity (gpd)	Factory Spec Temperature (F)	Factory Spec Pressure (psi)
24	77	50
36	77	50
50	77	50
75	77	50
100	77	50
150	77	65
200	77	65

Russ

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

https://blog.primowater.com/difference-between-glacier-water-and-primo-water
Not to be that crazy guy, but I dug into this and there is a chart in that link that says the glacier refills don't have minerals added back in! Hooooray

CRAP CRAP CRAP CARP! I have been using RO from the grocery store machine for years. Then covid came and they shut it off. I didn't brew for several months, but then found the Primo machine at our local Lowes. The fill-it-yourself option is disabled, but they had the pre-filled bottles....thought I'd found an option to get RO water during our covid shutdown. Now I find out it's got minerals in it....I'm saying crap, but thinking something that starts with F.

Sigh...was going to brew next weekend....now I need to go back on the hunt for RO water.

 

[IslandLizard]

Now I find out it's got minerals in it

Because of what was said before, in this thread? Or by taking a TDS reading?

The former is conjecture. The latter would be proof.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

Because of what was said before, in this thread? Or by taking a TDS reading?

The former is conjecture. The latter would be proof.

The post I quoted has a link to Primo saying their pre-filled bottles have minerals added for flavor. I wouldn't call that conjecture.

What are the Differences between Primo Water and Glacier Water?

 

[DarrellQ]

Can you use just plain distilled water for brewing Kolsch with LME?

 

[VikeMan]

Can you use just plain distilled water for brewing Kolsch with LME?

Definitely. The LME already has the minerals from the manufacturer's mash. And even if they mashed with fairly soft water, that's great for Kolsch, IMO.