RO Systems

[BSBrewer83]

I have recently moved and my water tastes like crap. I am now searching for an RO system. I'm reading Palmers water book. It is a difficult but I see the light at the end of the tunnel.

I am looking for suggestions on a good RO system. We dont drink water from the tap but rather our refrigerator which has a filter. It tastes pretty good but filling up 20 gallons from there would take longer than a brew day. Plus I want a consistent source of RO just from brewing.

All of the cheaper systems I see are for hooking up under the sink. Can I just buy some adapters so that I can hook this up to a garden hose? What would you guys recommend for someone in my situation?

I don't own a PH meter yet but I plan on it once I get my head wrapped around this water stuff. I am also in the process of getting a water report.

 

[mabrungard]

I recommend obtaining a 3 stage unit that uses the standard 10" filter housings. Get a unit with an auto-shutoff valve. More than likely, you will find units that also complete with a small pressure tank that is useless for brewing since it runs out of water instantly. A better approach is to discharge into an open tank and use a float valve on the discharge line. When the tank fills up, the float valve closes and that forces the auto-shutoff valve to shutoff the water supply. Look for a RO unit that uses Filmtec membrane.

RO units are a fairly off-the-shelf item and all the components generally come from the same manufacturers. Get a unit with a carbon block filter and a particulate filter (1 to 5 micron rating). The final thing all RO owners need is a TDS meter so that they can tell that their machine is producing RO quality water (low TDS). You can read more about buying and operating RO machines on Bru'n Water's Facebook page.

 

[schematix]

I recently bought and started using this: http://www.purewaterclub.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=390

It is cheap chinese/tawainese stuff, the vendor wasn't responsive to an issue until i told them i was back charging, and it came with several leaks (fixed easily by tightening or reseating), but for $100, it'll pay for itself in 5 brews.

The first brew I made has a much cleaner background undertone than my tap water brews.

 

[stat]

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/brs-4-stage-ro-only-system-75gpd-2.html


Got that one a few weeks ago. I bought a float valve as well and plumbed it into an empty bulk LME container. I just turn the valve on the night before and I end up with 15 gallons of ro in the morning. Takes my tap water from 160 tds to 4.

Then I got a weldless bulkhead and a ball valve and a camlock disconnect on the outside, just pump the water out into the hlt. There's a length of tubing over the threads of the bulkhead going to the bottom that works as a dip tube.

I T'eed off before the 1/4" ball valve going to the tank and added a 3.2 gallon pressure tank as well, then another T with a barb attached to some beer line and a picnic tap. Then I can get cleaning or sanitizing water quick and it's always there.

I also pull off 2 gallons or so at a time and add back some calcium chloride to about 100 tds and use that as drinking water. It's a little more than 1/8 tsp of cacl2 to 2 gallons or so.

 

[jsprinceiii]

We purchased a Chloramine Rodi.. (75G MAXR)
http://www.buckeyehydro.com/chloramine-special-rodi/

They have both, Disposable block filters, and Refillable..

Our area uses Chloramines.. We decided to use the Chloraguard filter instead
of the refillable catalytic GAC.
http://www.filtrextechnologies.com/images/pdf/ChloraGuard_Brochure.pdf


DI Water for the Fish!!
RO Water for Brewing!!

Works Fantastic.
We store the DI water in 30 Gallon Brute, with a Float, and store the RO water in
5 Gallon containers for Brew Day!!

 

[BSBrewer83]

Thanks everyone for the great suggestions

 

[BSBrewer83]

View attachment Water Report_Brent Stevens_150413.pdf

Here is my water report. Any idea where the off flavors are coming from?

 

[ajdelange]

No. Your water report looks fine. What is the nature of the bad tastes? Metallic? Moldy? Earthy? Salty? Bitter? There is nothing in the report to suggest that you would have any of these. It is, for example, unlikely that metal is being leached from your plumbing as the water's pH is higher than its saturation pH meaning corrosion is unlikely. Perhaps you are very sensitive to sulfate or bicarbonate but there isn't a great deal of either of these. It is, in fact, hard to justify an RO system for water like yours unless you are hypersensitive to something or something is getting into your system somehow. I would, with your water, install an RO system to get rid of the sulfate alone because sulfate is a disaster in most of the beers I brew but that's my personal taste.

 

[BSBrewer83]

No. Your water report looks fine. What is the nature of the bad tastes? Metallic? Moldy? Earthy? Salty? Bitter? There is nothing in the report to suggest that you would have any of these. It is, for example, unlikely that metal is being leached from your plumbing as the water's pH is higher than its saturation pH meaning corrosion is unlikely. Perhaps you are very sensitive to sulfate or bicarbonate but there isn't a great deal of either of these. It is, in fact, hard to justify an RO system for water like yours unless you are hypersensitive to something or something is getting into your system somehow. I would, with your water, install an RO system to get rid of the sulfate alone because sulfate is a disaster in most of the beers I brew but that's my personal taste.

I would say the taste is more of a metallic or chemical or mineral type of flavor. I am not the only person that has the same opinion of the water flavor either. It seems like it is more pronounced in the beer also...

 

[brewing_clown]

I bought an APEC RO-CTOP portable RO system. I hook it up only on brew day. It takes a couple of hours to get 10 gallons out, but I don't have to deal with storage tanks and plumbing. I'm happy with it. You can hook it up to the faucet or to a hose.

http://www.freedrinkingwater.com/ro-counter-detail.htm

 

[rodduley]

Hey brewing _clown, how do you store your system when not in use. I have heard you do not want the membrane to dry out. I want to do something similar but was not sure to go that direction. I would probably only use the RO system once a month or so and did not want it running all the time.

 

[mabrungard]

I wouldn't worry about a system drying out. Just cap the inlet and outlet and put it away. It won't dry out that way.

 

[ajdelange]

I would say the taste is more of a metallic or chemical or mineral type of flavor.

As I said earlier there is nothing in the report that suggests any of these.

I am not the only person that has the same opinion of the water flavor either.

Are the other people in your household or do others in the neighborhood notice the same thing?

It seems like it is more pronounced in the beer also...

Beer can magnify some things like iron. But your reported iron is 1.7 orders of magnitude below the level at which brewers find iron to be a problem.

I suppose the first thing to do is call the utility and say 'my water tastes bad'. They are going to come to the same conclusion that I did i.e. that there is no reason it should and might send someone out to test samples from your tap. If they don't you might want to get more extensive tests done on your own.

 

[BSBrewer83]

As I said earlier there is nothing in the report that suggests any of these.

Are the other people in your household or do others in the neighborhood notice the same thing?

Beer can magnify some things like iron. But your reported iron is 1.7 orders of magnitude below the level at which brewers find iron to be a problem.

I suppose the first thing to do is call the utility and say 'my water tastes bad'. They are going to come to the same conclusion that I did i.e. that there is no reason it should and might send someone out to test samples from your tap. If they don't you might want to get more extensive tests done on your own.

I really appreciate the feedback. I might try my neighbors water. The lady that provided me the water report is pretty responsive so I might be able to get it tested at my house. Thanks again for all the feedback.

 

[jsprinceiii]

If I was you..
I would send a sample of the water, to Ward Labs.
Ward Labs Brewers Kit

Don't rely on the report your water company/supplier provides.

 

[NeoBrew]

I bought an APEC RO-CTOP portable RO system. I hook it up only on brew day. It takes a couple of hours to get 10 gallons out, but I don't have to deal with storage tanks and plumbing. I'm happy with it. You can hook it up to the faucet or to a hose.

http://www.freedrinkingwater.com/ro-counter-detail.htm

I can recommend freedrinkingwater.com. I have the 45gpd model. I have been running it for nearly 10 years now. I change the prefilter and the carbon yearly. The original membrane is still going strong. I go from about 320 ppm down to 13ppm. If I was going to buy again, I would get the 90gpd model just to speed up the collection process.

 

[BSBrewer83]

If I was you..
I would send a sample of the water, to Ward Labs.
Ward Labs Brewers Kit

Don't rely on the report your water company/supplier provides.

Just ordered it. I know there has to be something different. I am holding off on buying an RO system until I get these results back.

 

[jsprinceiii]

Glad to hear.. I believe knowing what the results are at your tap, instead of what
they say it should be, is better.

Keep us posted..

 

[BSBrewer83]

Trust me. The second I get the lab results I will post them in this thread. In the mean time I am reading up on as much as I can about water.

 

[brewing_clown]

Hey brewing _clown, how do you store your system when not in use. I have heard you do not want the membrane to dry out. I want to do something similar but was not sure to go that direction. I would probably only use the RO system once a month or so and did not want it running all the time.

The system comes with a cap on the outlet, which I replace when I'm done with it. Some water stays in the canisters, and I just flush it out for a couple of minutes when I use it.

 

[BSBrewer83]

Just got my report from Ward.

pH 7.9
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 211
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.35
Cations / Anions, me/L 3.5 / 3.4

PPM
Sodium, Na 25
Potassium, K 3
Calcium, Ca 34
Magnesium, Mg 8
Total Hardness, CaCO3 118
Nitrate, NO3-N < 0.1 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 23
Chloride, Cl 25
Carbonate, CO3 < 1.0
Bicarbonate, HCO3 75
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 62
Total Phosphorus, P < 0.01
Total Iron, Fe < 0.01
"<" - Not Detected / Below Detection Limit

 

[BSBrewer83]

This looks very similar to the first report I received from the city. I am wondering if the water is treated with chlorine in the summer months that cause off flavor. I have been tasting water out of the tap lately and it doesnt taste as bad as it used to.

 

[ajdelange]

A Ward Labs report isn't going to find the kind of things you are looking for. Nonetheless it is good to have one as the fact that it compares reasonably closely to what your city has told you is indicative that your water isn't too variable and you can rely on the city's reports in the future. Of particular interest in this regard is that the city had calcium measured in June 2009 at 33.8 mg/L corresponding to calcium hardness of 84.5 ppm as CaCO3 whereas they measured calcium hardness at 79 ppm as CaCO3 (even though it is labeled as 'mg/l' in the report) in March of this year and the Ward Labs report lists calcium as 34 mg/L (85 ppm as CaCO3). From this I think you can conclude that hardness levels are pretty constant with time. Also note that the city's Jun 09 measurement of sodium is the same as the current Ward Labs number and this with the fact that the city only finds it necessary to send out samples for analysis of this ion indicates that it is stable. So you didn't waste your money on the Ward Labs test though it doesn't answer you basic questions as to what the taste problems might be. It probably lies in some metal such as Manganese (unlikely as your city's test in March shows it to be low) or copper or some organic.

Yes, water suppliers do 'push' chlorine/chloramine in the spring/summer to deal with biofilm buildup in the distribution system but those are easily recognized if present and easily removed.

 

[BSBrewer83]

A Ward Labs report isn't going to find the kind of things you are looking for. Nonetheless it is good to have one as the fact that it compares reasonably closely to what your city has told you is indicative that your water isn't too variable and you can rely on the city's reports in the future. Of particular interest in this regard is that the city had calcium measured in June 2009 at 33.8 mg/L corresponding to calcium hardness of 84.5 ppm as CaCO3 whereas they measured calcium hardness at 79 ppm as CaCO3 (even though it is labeled as 'mg/l' in the report) in March of this year and the Ward Labs report lists calcium as 34 mg/L (85 ppm as CaCO3). From this I think you can conclude that hardness levels are pretty constant with time. Also note that the city's Jun 09 measurement of sodium is the same as the current Ward Labs number and this with the fact that the city only finds it necessary to send out samples for analysis of this ion indicates that it is stable. So you didn't waste your money on the Ward Labs test though it doesn't answer you basic questions as to what the taste problems might be. It probably lies in some metal such as Manganese (unlikely as your city's test in March shows it to be low) or copper or some organic.

Yes, water suppliers do 'push' chlorine/chloramine in the spring/summer to deal with biofilm buildup in the distribution system but those are easily recognized if present and easily removed.

I just emailed the water lady at the city to get an idea of when they add chlorine/chloramine. This way I can prepare for it.

If an off flavor is some organic matter then would a basic filter like this http://www.morebeer.com/products/water-filter-kit-10-inch.html be sufficient? Also the description says that it removes chlorine.

If a water filter like this is used. Would it be a good idea to get lamotte water test kit to test the water after filtration? Or does this sort of filter not have an effect on the mineral composition of the water?

On a side note I want to say thank you to A.J. DeLange, Martin Brungard, John Palmer, and Colin Kaminski. Between the 4 of you I have learned so much about water in the last few weeks. I am really excited to use what you have taught me in making better beer. I always avoided water because I didn't want to learn but now that I have spent the time to start understanding it I feel like a much more complete homebrewer. Thanks guys.

 

[ajdelange]

I just emailed the water lady at the city to get an idea of when they add chlorine/chloramine. This way I can prepare for it.

You should be able to detect it easily without any equipment other than a tumbler and your nose. See https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=361073

If an off flavor is some organic matter then would a basic filter like this http://www.morebeer.com/products/water-filter-kit-10-inch.html be sufficient? Also the description says that it removes chlorine.

Yes, it is an activated carbon filter which will adsorb organics and also handle chlorine and chloramine but if chloramine is present you must throttle things back (reduce the flow rate) such that the water in the filter has sufficient contact time with the carbon.

If a water filter like this is used. Would it be a good idea to get lamotte water test kit to test the water after filtration? Or does this sort of filter not have an effect on the mineral composition of the water?

No, it doesn't. Organics, chlorine and chloramine are not considered minerals. There are simple tests for chlorine (be sure to get a 'combined' test or to add a pinch of potassium iodide to the sample if you can't) available at aquarium stores and online

 

[BSBrewer83]

So given my water report I have entered the information into Bru'n Water.

So tomorrow I am going to brew a blonde. To get to ideal figures for a yellow malty beer it recommends adding 2.9 ML of lactic acid to the mash and also 4 grams of calcium chloride to the mash.

4.5 grams of Calcium Chloride and 3.3 ML of lactic to the sparge.

Recipe:
11 gallons in the kettle
og 1.045
18# 2row
1# crystal 15

Basically going from calcium 34 ppm to 70. Chloride from 25 to 89 and lowering ph to 5.5 in the mash.

Does this sound like a reasonable plan?

Should I add a campden tablet?

 

[mabrungard]

That seems like a reasonable amendment. There is already plenty of sulfate in your tap water. You should definitely do something to neutralize the chlorine or chloramine.

 

[BSBrewer83]

That seems like a reasonable amendment. There is already plenty of sulfate in your tap water. You should definitely do something to neutralize the chlorine or chloramine.

Thanks again. You guys rock!

 

[BSBrewer83]

Hit my target mash pH like a pro today.
Also took a test test of my treated water vs untreated and a huge difference in flavor. I believe the campden tablet went a long way.

My efficiency was perfect as well. Today could have been my most successful brew day ever.

Thanks for all the help. It's gonna make be huge improvement in my beer.

I will post a follow up once I taste the finished product.

View attachment 1430089318324.jpg

 

[BSBrewer83]

Just wanted to post an update on this thread. I just started drinking the blonde that I made. It's possibly the best brewed beer I have ever made. It's not my favorite style but its one of my wife's favorites.

I wanted a very low flavor beer to see if I got any off flavors and I cannot detect anything. Using the campden tablets, pH meter, and water adjustments really helped the quality of this beer. I've been brewing for 5.5 years and from a quality standpoint I don't know if I've made something of this caliber before.

Thanks for all the help and I am really excited to use my new found knowledge of water to continue to improve my beers.