RO systems cost effective?

[Gizzygone]

I’m trying to figure out if an RO system is cost effective, or a waste?

I only brew about 5x 5gallon batches a year, although I did acquire a Picobrew Z, so hopefully that will change)

I’d like to get into more detailed water profiles (I just use spring water now), but I can’t decide if I should invest in the filters now? Or if I should be lugging gallons around for the time being (about 80cents/gallon at wal mart )

We do not have any water-fill-ups locally, so that isn’t an option.

I understand that RO systems waste considerable amounts of water and require filter replacements, so... that’s added cost to consider as well

 

[lump42]

I would check your local water first to see if it is even needed first. Send it off to wards lab if you haven't already. I believe the testing is under $50.

I've seen Ro systems anywhere from $100-400. Assuming you use 8 gallon per brew day and a $1/ gallon spring water. On the high end for the first year, it would take 10 years to breakeven. On the low end, 2.5 years. That's not counting the cost of the water from your house, the efficiency of the system, filter replacements, or the travel cost to buy spring water. Nor does it consider the convenience of not needing to haul gallons of water around, or the waste of the water jugs.

At your current brewing rate it may not make sense economically, but this is a hobby and the economics (luckily) don't always need to justify new equipment.

 

[MaxStout]

I started buying water for $0.39/gal at Walmart. Quickly grew tired of that. And some of those store dispensers don't have their filters serviced as often as they should be. A good RO system will run you a bit north of $100, and you always know what's in your water. The RO from a good system should be around 10-20ppm TDS. For all intents and purposes, that's about as good as distilled for building your brewing water.

 

[mirthfuldragon]

Depends on how your tapwater is and how much you dislike lugging 5 gallon jugs back and forth from Walmart/ grocery store. At 40 cents a gallon for RO water (if you trust them), you wouldn't reach break-even until 250 gallons, or ~30 batches (~7g per batch), or six years for you.
If you're like me and live in/near Chicago or Milwaukee, our tap water is pretty solid for most styles, so I de-chlorinate and that's it. If you live in Florida, some parts of TX, or Flint, MI, then a whole-house RO filter is probably a decent investment.

 

[Jag75]

I get mine from a dispenser. They change filters once a month, it has service date on it. 1 time it was 16ppm, all the other times it's been 6 -10ppm. It cost 25 cents a gallon . I've been pondering the same question. It really doesnt bother me to fill my jugs. I use a 5 and 3 gallon jug.

 

[gnef]

I personally have an RO system at home, but it is only for a few specific duties, only one of which is related to brewing:

1. Drinking water
2. Ice maker in the fridge
3. Starsan solution (so it lasts longer)

I do make 5 gallons of starsan at a time, so I did add a larger auxiliary tank.

For brewing water, I just run it through a GAC filter, and adjust for pH and flavor.

Now, if you absolutely need to construct your water profiles from scratch due to your location, then I would say an RO system with large tank makes things very convenient. Not sure of the economics, but convenience itself can be worth it. If you go this route, a TDS meter is also a good quick way to check your water quality.

 

[VTX1300]

After 40 or so batches using grocery store distilled water i got tired of hauling 8 gallons of water home every time i wanted to brew. At the rate I use distilled water the unit i bought would have paid itself off already. I also use RO water for my coffee maker and my fish pond so i use way more than just for brewing. In mho it was well worth the investment. If you only use 25 gallons a year investing a RO system may not be worth the investment unless you can use RO water for other purposes.

 

[day_trippr]

Frankly, ~50 gallons a year isn't worth buying any RO system, unless one has other, relatively frequent uses for one.
If you don't run an RO system at least weekly the efficiency will degrade and eventually require premature membrane replacement...

So, that $40 per year for Walmart RO might be the better choice. I do recommend investing the $6 or so for a TDS meter and check the "RO" water you buy before assuming anything about its character...

Cheers!

 

[sleev-les]

I've been buying purified water from the grocery store. Doesn't bother me, but better to deal with than the well water at home. I have a RO for drinking, but it would take days to get enough to brew since the reserve tank is only a couple gallons and needs to recharge too often on a larger volume.

 

[bstacy1974]

Let me get this straight, you have a Picobrew Z? A system that retails, on their website, for $2,700 and you're on the fence about $150 for an RO system?
Get the RO unit. Install it under the sink in the kitchen. Use it for drinking, cooking, and making coffee, as well as brewing. It's a tool just like every other appliance you purchase. The intangible benefits outweigh the cost every time.

 

[Vale71]

Let me get this straight, you have a Picobrew Z? A system that retails, on their website, for $2,700 and you're on the fence about $150 for an RO system?
Get the RO unit. Install it under the sink in the kitchen. Use it for drinking, cooking, and making coffee, as well as brewing. It's a tool just like every other appliance you purchase. The intangible benefits outweigh the cost every time.

What did you expect? An RO system doesn't look as cool as the Picobrew (as matter of fact, most of them are just plain ugly) so it must be a waste of money, right?

 

[mongoose33]

I’m trying to figure out if an RO system is cost effective, or a waste?

I only brew about 5x 5gallon batches a year, although I did acquire a Picobrew Z, so hopefully that will change)

I’d like to get into more detailed water profiles (I just use spring water now), but I can’t decide if I should invest in the filters now? Or if I should be lugging gallons around for the time being (about 80cents/gallon at wal mart )

We do not have any water-fill-ups locally, so that isn’t an option.

I understand that RO systems waste considerable amounts of water and require filter replacements, so... that’s added cost to consider as well

If you're only brewing 5 batches a year, you'll probably pay the system off in 2024.

There are a few considerations here. One is how much you'll save using RO water. If you did a lot of brew days, and needed, say, 7 gallons of RO water for each brew day, and you're paying 80 cents per gallon....$5.60 in water costs per brew.

My water rate is $3.48 per 100 cubic feet, or 748 gallons. To make 7 gallons, even if my reject water rate is 10x what I get in RO water, that's just 77 gallons.....or just about 38 cents or so. There's a sewage charge too, so say....75 cents per brew.

I just finished my 80th batch. For the last 75 I've used my own RO water. I paid about $150 for the RO system. If I'm saving $4 per brew in RO water costs, times 75 brews.....that's $300 in savings. So I've paid off the system and then some, and anything now is gravy.

Unless I have to replace the filters. I'm still on the same filters and the system is still producing quality water. I have a TDS meter that still registers about 5 ppm in dissolved solids in the water.

So--does it pay? Depends on your water costs plus the cost of your local storebought water plus the cost of the system, and how many times a year you brew.

*********

I fill a bunch of emptied distilled or RO water jugs as well as my 7-gallon aquatainer. I use that water in my office to feed my Keurig coffeemaker. No scale buildup, no running vinegar solution through it. That's a savings too, if it's important to do that.

********

An RO system needs to be run. It can't sit, unused, for months. Russ at BuckeyeHydro told me I shouldn't go more than 2 weeks without running it, or I should remove the filter and store in some sort of special solution (I forget what it was he said). I've actually a couple times gone three weeks without using it, but mostly it's used at 2-week or less intervals. If you aren't going to use it much, it won't be good for the filter. If you can use it to feed drinking water or icemaker water too, then that wouldn't matter much.

*********

How much is convenience worth to you? Depends on how far, do you want to schlep water jugs, etc. One nice thing about this is I *always* have RO water available. I not only have 7 gallons in my aquatainer i have an additional 14 gallon jugs of RO water, in case I want to do a 10-gallon batch instead of a 5-gallon batch. And those jugs make the round trip to my office to feed my Keurig.

It didn't take me but 2 or 3 times hauling water from Wal-mart to look seriously at an RO system.

**********

Mine is mounted under my garage sink, and I fill my aquatainer with it. It's not an expensive installation, and doesn't have a tank, doesn't feed drinking water or the icemaker. It only produces RO water I then transfer to where i want it. I used to run it off the sink faucet, eventually had a hose bib added under the sink so I can run it without tying up the sink--but even a simple sink faucet can feed one of these.

***********

Here are a few pics showing how I do this--there are a hundred other ways one could set up one of these, and this just happens to work in my context.

 

[Gizzygone]

Let me get this straight, you have a Picobrew Z? A system that retails, on their website, for $2,700 and you're on the fence about $150 for an RO system?
Get the RO unit. Install it under the sink in the kitchen. Use it for drinking, cooking, and making coffee, as well as brewing. It's a tool just like every other appliance you purchase. The intangible benefits outweigh the cost every time.

What did you expect? An RO system doesn't look as cool as the Picobrew (as matter of fact, most of them are just plain ugly) so it must be a waste of money, right?

I know... I know... but I DID buy the pico as part of the Kickstarter, so it was considerably cheaper. Plus my work situation has changed, and income is significantly lighter than it was a few months ago.

Under the sink wouldn’t be an option either: there’s no room available (we use it for a slide-out trash bin). So it would be a unique setup in my basement.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

I recently replaced the filters and membrane in my RO filter after four years of use. I use it mostly for brewing beer and coffee. I hardly remember what I paid for the unit but I do remember how inconvenient it was shopping for distilled water for a planned brew day.

I guess the plumbing and water in my area aren't too bad because the filters didn't look all that dirty.

The only other maintenance needed since installing the filter was wiping the inside of the filter housings under running water with a sponge. Once or twice a year was enough to eliminate the slippery buildup that accumulates over time.

The new membrane, carbon block and sediment filters are shown on the left.

 

[mongoose33]

I know... I know... but I DID buy the pico as part of the Kickstarter, so it was considerably cheaper. Plus my work situation has changed, and income is significantly lighter than it was a few months ago.

Under the sink wouldn’t be an option either: there’s no room available (we use it for a slide-out trash bin). So it would be a unique setup in my basement.

There are a lot of ways to do RO systems, including a portable one that you only haul out the night before brewing to create your RO water.

Here's a pic of an earlier iteration of my system. I mounted mine to the wall next to the sink, and fed it off the sink faucet. My thinking at the time was that if my garage went below freezing in the winter, I could simply bring the RO filters inside. Well, it never did that, and I've since had other ways of dealing with that--I can put a trouble light with a 40-watt light bulb under the sink if it's going to get cold, and that will keep sink and lines above freezing.

But the point is, you don't have to permanently mount an RO system. You could make an L-shaped wooden "caddy" for it and move that anywhere. I've also attached a pic showing the "caddy" for my pump for cleaning my conical. Just make a big one for an RO filter and move it anywhere you want.

 

[MaxStout]

Since I don't brew that often, it's doubtful I've recouped enough in water cost savings alone to pay for my RO system. But the intangibles of no longer schlepping water jugs to/from my local Wally World make the $130 investment more than worthwhile. And my time is at a premium, too. Lots of things I'd rather be doing than standing in a store aisle, filling 5 gal jugs.

Plus, I use RO for mixing Starsan, in my coffeemaker (never have to de-scale it), etc. Once you get a system, you'll find more uses for the water.

 

[schematix]

Once you get a system, you'll find more uses for the water.

Sums it up right there.

RO water makes great drinking water (just as good as bottled), crystal clear ice cubes, better for clothes iron, steamers, coffee, beer, etc. The membranes last for years and years too. Should be standard equipment in all residences.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Plus, I use RO for mixing Starsan, in my coffeemaker (never have to de-scale it), etc. Once you get a system, you'll find more uses for the water.

Mixing StarSan with RO water keeps the sanitizing solution crystal clear for weeks if not longer. Why is kind of a mystery to me but it’s amazing how it works.

 

[MaxStout]

There are a lot of ways to do RO systems, including a portable one that you only haul out the night before brewing to create your RO water.

Here's a pic of an earlier iteration of my system. I mounted mine to the wall next to the sink, and fed it off the sink faucet. My thinking at the time was that if my garage went below freezing in the winter, I could simply bring the RO filters inside. Well, it never did that, and I've since had other ways of dealing with that--I can put a trouble light with a 40-watt light bulb under the sink if it's going to get cold, and that will keep sink and lines above freezing.

But the point is, you don't have to permanently mount an RO system. You could make an L-shaped wooden "caddy" for it and move that anywhere. I've also attached a pic showing the "caddy" for my pump for cleaning my conical. Just make a big one for an RO filter and move it anywhere you want.

View attachment 646963 View attachment 646964

Your earlier system is basically what I do. It's a Buckeye Hydro 75gpd, hanging above my laundry basin. I connect to the faucet and fill jugs. Nothing hard-plumbed.

 

[gnef]

Mixing StarSan with RO water keeps the sanitizing solution crystal clear for weeks if not longer. Why is kind of a mystery to me but it’s amazing how it works.

Because RO has so few dissolved minerals/salts, it has no buffering capability, specifically alkaline compounds which would react with the phosphoric acid of the starsan.

this is one of the greatest uses for RO water, in my mind. The RO water-based starsan solutions last for months for me. I keep pH strips on hand to ensure the pH is still good.

 

[Gizzygone]

The wheels in my head are starting to turn: I’m wondering if there’s an easy way to set up my filters in my basement, and then run water to my fridge upstairs... we use the fridge filtered water daily for our coffee maker (and perhaps it would be smart for me to stop buying bottled water and move over to a nalgene?).

But: I’d have to find a way to bypass the fridge’s built in filter... and I’m wondering if the RO water would harm the copper supply line to the fridge?


Additionally: I’m wondering if I can tee off of the RO filter in the basement to fill bulk storage containers for brew days.

 

[day_trippr]

You can definitely tee off an RO system output for whatever purpose suits you, just add a valve on the stub.
It might be a good idea to replace a copper fridge line with poly tubing if you can. And rather than try to figure out how to bypass the fridge water filter, stick a new one in there (after giving it a full rinsing). I don't think a fresh filter would significantly alter the RO water...

Cheers!

 

[Jako]

I recently replaced the filters and membrane in my RO filter after four years of use. I use it mostly for brewing beer and coffee. I hardly remember what I paid for the unit but I do remember how inconvenient it was shopping for distilled water for a planned brew day.

View attachment 646961
I guess the plumbing and water in my area aren't too bad because the filters didn't look all that dirty.

View attachment 646958
The only other maintenance needed since installing the filter was wiping the inside of the filter housings under running water with a sponge. Once or twice a year was enough to eliminate the slippery buildup that accumulates over time.

View attachment 646959 View attachment 646960
The new membrane, carbon block and sediment filters are shown on the left.

cool pictures.

 

[Still Brewn]

wondering if I can tee off of the RO filter in the basement to fill bulk storage containers for brew days.

Get a tank from a place like Menards. It is well worth the money and you don't have to ever worry about keeping buckets of water fresh or filling them up.
https://www.menards.com/main/plumbi...153238829.htm?tid=2144745071155946244&ipos=13

And if you get the right size you will have plenty of water for other things like ice and coffee. They have all sizes...

 

[Gizzygone]

You can definitely tee off an RO system output for whatever purpose suits you, just add a valve on the stub.
It might be a good idea to replace a copper fridge line with poly tubing if you can. And rather than try to figure out how to bypass the fridge water filter, stick a new one in there (after giving it a full rinsing). I don't think a fresh filter would significantly alter the RO water...

Cheers!

replacing the copper is out of the question unfortunately: I have no way to easily run the new line to the fridge (drywall ceilings in the basement).

My thoughts were to fish a poly line across the basement ceiling to the closet that contains the fridge’s water shut off. Then I’d just disconnect that copper supply line from the shut-off and connect to the RO output. (Although in further researching this, the long run may not allow this to work)

 

[schematix]

My thoughts were to fish a poly line across the basement ceiling to the closet that contains the fridge’s water shut off. Then I’d just disconnect that copper supply line from the shut-off and connect to the RO output. (Although in further researching this, the long run may not allow this to work)

You'll want to run at least a 3/8" poly tube. The 1/4" stuff sucks even for short runs.

Other options are booster pumps or permeate pumps to up the pressure. Depending on your supply pressure you may want that anyways.

I have a small-ish tank in the basement next to my brew set up. When i need brew water i close off a block valve that keeps the ice maker/fridge supplied with pressurized RO water, but leave the output of the membrane to go straight to the brew kettle. During that 1/4-1/2 day when i'm making brew water there is still enough in the tank for the ice maker and fridge to keep at it.

 

[augiedoggy]

I do use my ro system every day... I dont know if it was mentioned here but you waste about 3 gallons of water to get one filtered gallon so you dont want to be using it a whole lot if your trying to keep the water bill down depending on costs. many people try to re purpose all the waste/membrane rinse water.

 

[ruddyscot]

Dear Mr. Goose
A quick note to thank you for all the work you’ve done in this area and for taking the time to put it on this forum. It’s really helpful for all of us. I live near Charlotte NC and have good water, but I am concerned about heavy metals and other contaminants. Maybe I’ve read too many reviews by the manufacturers of RO equipment? The prices listed are about $350; where did you get your set up?
Happy Brewing

 

[mabrungard]

For maximum convenience, having a home RO system with a pressure tank is ideal. But you should understand the how's and why's of RO when purchasing and maintaining a system. With that information, you can further improve 'cost effectiveness', but it can easily be wasted money if your tap water supply is already good for brewing.

I've been involved with RO technology since before I achieved my first engineering degree over 35 years ago and I've since enhanced knowledge with my masters degree in environmental engineering. I recently authored a 2 part article on typical residential RO systems and technologies for Zymurgy magazine. The second part will be published in the next issue. I focused on dispelling and clarifying 'rules of thumb' or common recommendations that cause system owners to buy more than they need and maintain their equipment with excessive cost. In other words, the article focuses on helping homebrewers keep their RO system 'cost effective'.

One aspect that can be clarified with respect to the recommendation made above by Still Brewn is that while a large pressure tank is an outstanding enhancement to many systems, you will be disappointed if you buy a plain pressure tank intended for regular water. It needs to be a plastic-lined pressure tank that is intended for RO usage. A plain tank will rust through is less than 5 years.

'Cost effective' is actually a nebulous term since it actually involves more than money. But making your system cost you less, should be something that anyone should strive for. I suggest that anyone that's serious about reducing RO system cost and maintenance cost should read that article. Its another reason why AHA membership is worthwhile. It's now easy to try out AHA membership on a monthly basis for something like $5 per month. Give it a try and be sure to pore over all the article archives from Zymurgy magazine.

Enjoy!

 

[mongoose33]

Dear Mr. Goose
A quick note to thank you for all the work you’ve done in this area and for taking the time to put it on this forum. It’s really helpful for all of us. I live near Charlotte NC and have good water, but I am concerned about heavy metals and other contaminants. Maybe I’ve read too many reviews by the manufacturers of RO equipment? The prices listed are about $350; where did you get your set up?
Happy Brewing

I got mine at Buckeye Hydro. One of their people, Russ, posts here. He was tremendously helpful in getting me exactly what I needed, including things like a connection to a garden hose spigot, things like that.

Ultimately you get what you pay for. Buckeye Hydro isn't necessarily the cheapest but the service was perfect, and to me service is worth a lot. In the end, IMO, I got more than I paid for.

I paid something near $150 for my system, IIRC, plus I added a TDS (Total Dissolved Solids) meter. I think the latter is absolutely necessary, as I need to know when the system is no longer working optimally. I'd hate to keep producing RO water only to find out, later, that it had stated to produce 100ppm or greater water when I was counting on 5ppm.

A few tidbits I picked up along the way:

1. Feeding softened water to the RO filter works better than unsoftened water. My local water is really bad in terms of alkalinity, so it's softened.

2. RO systems work slower if the water is really cold. When I get to the spring when water coming in from our underground pipes is cold, it slows down. In August and September, it's pretty fast.

3. I selected the 50 gpd (gallons per day) model; It will produce about 2 gallons per hour but that's under optimal conditions (warmer water). During cold periods it's about 1.5 or so. In retrospect I kind of wish I'd chosen the 75 gpd system. I can replace the 50gpd filter with a 75gpd filter if I want to, but the system continues to work fine, so no need.

4. I always flush the system for 30 seconds before beginning, and for 30 seconds when I'm finished. It always takes a few minutes for the water coming out of the system to drop down to the 5-6ppm level it always settles at. So at the beginning I'll let it run for maybe 5 minutes after flushing, then direct the output into a small cup in which I've placed the TDS meter. That way I'm sure the system is performing, and at that point, I'll put the output line into the Aquatainer I use.

5. My standard procedure is to pump the RO water into my kettle at the start of brew day, then set the RO system to refilling the Aquatainer while I brew. That way I always have enough RO water to do the next brew day. Occasionally as I use up my 1-gallon jugs of RO water I'll refill them from the Aquatainer and then set to refilling that.

6. I've had two back surgeries. My Aquatainer is 7 gallons, and it dawned on me that even though I can lift that to a table on which I can fill pitchers to transfer water to my kettle, or fill the 1-gallon jugs, I might be tempting fate. So I researched and bought a transfer pump that I use to get water from the Aquatainer on the floor to the kettles, or to the jugs. I've shown how I do that below in a couple pics, and here's the source of that pump:

Power Supply: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B073QTNF9F/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Pump: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07FT87XJY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I ended up adding some John Guest connectors to allow for a pickup tube on one side, and vinyl tubing on the output side, which you can get from the local home store like Menards.

I wired an on-off switch for the transfer pump next to it to make things....nicer.