RIS Water Adjustments - Bru N Water vs BeerSmith 3

[Wreck99]

Hey everyone,

Just wanted to bounce this off some folks for opinion. I'm lining up a RIS brew in a couple weeks. I've been using BeerSmith since forever, most recently version 3 with the water tab. I've also got the full version of Bru N Water version 5.5. So I use both as well as EZ Water Calc for perspectives. I know they are all estimates.

This is the first time making a heavy grain bill beer with water additions so I don't want to overdo it with salts since I know some go a long way...especially the Pickling Lime!

My Grain Bill for 6 gallon batch:

18# - Pale 2-row (2 SRM)
1# - Special B (118 SRM)
1# - Roasted Barley (300 SRM)
1# - Chocolate (350 SRM)
1# - Carapils (1.5 SRM)

Messing around in Bru N Water I'm adding:

2g - Epsom Salt
2g - Gypsum
4g - Calcium Chloride
2g - Pickling Lime

All to the mash. I like to keep it simple. To achieve the following profile in Bru N Water:

Ca = 77
Mg = 5
Na = 29
SO4 = 47
Cl = 93

As per Bru N Water, that will net me a ph of approx 5.31, which in my experience with Bru N Water and my setup, is slightly off so that gives me some wiggle room if I need to make a small adjustment. I'm hoping for a ph closer to 5.4-5.5 in the end for this stout. Now, BeerSmith 3 before Pickling Lime says approx 5.46 mash ph. Pickling Lime isn't a built in ingredient to BS3 so now I'm worried, should I even add it? If I don't, I'll want to adjust the Calcium higher. However, if I remove the Pickling Lime from Bru N Water, the prediction goes down to 5.10! Yikes! So I'm thinking Bru N Water is more accurate and I should add it. I just hope 2g of it isn't too much! I've seen it make a huge impact with far less in my brewery. I'm aiming for a water profile close to my old house before I messed with water chem, because this RIS I brewed there before was amazing and well received by all. My water was super hard in PA so I won't be going that far with it, just harder than most of my beers brewed here in SC.

Any opinions or advice are appreciated.

 

[jturman35]

Little late but this is what I used on my RIS. I’m BIAB using distilled.

Water profile for RIS
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/index.php?threads/Water-profile-for-RIS.668173/

 

[Wreck99]

Little late but this is what I used on my RIS. I’m BIAB using distilled.

Water profile for RIS
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/index.php?threads/Water-profile-for-RIS.668173/

Not late as I'm not brewing this for another couple of weeks. When I brew this one, I like to do it in August so it's really nice by the winter months. I will take a look at yours and compare to what I've got when I get home.

How close to the projected mash ph from Bru N Water is it to the real thing in your case? For me, I can expect it to be up to 0.20 off. I wonder if I don't have something inputted correctly to the base config. I realize it's all approximated but would be nice to be closer to what I actually get. Example: I brewed a Watermelon Wheat yesterday and Bru N Water said I would get a mash ph of 5.3x (I think it was?) and it turned out to be 5.11 so I needed to adjust on the fly. I'm not at home so I don't have the sheet in front of me...

 

[jturman35]

I was shooting for 5.5 and after 30-45min was at 5.2 something. Beer is still in fermenter at 12 days so haven’t been able to taste yet. I am really shooting for a dryer tasting Stout and not cloying sweet.

I have used Brunwater many times with good results. With that said this was a big malt beer and defiantly required quite a bit of more salt to get the ph where it needed. This was the first beer out of 30 that required pickling lime.

 

[Wreck99]

I was shooting for 5.5 and after 30-45min was at 5.2 something. Beer is still in fermenter at 12 days so haven’t been able to taste yet. I am really shooting for a dryer tasting Stout and not cloying sweet.

I have used Brunwater many times with good results. With that said this was a big malt beer and defiantly required quite a bit of more salt to get the ph where it needed. This was the first beer out of 30 that required pickling lime.

That's comforting thank you. I've only used pickling lime twice myself. Once for a darker beer and yesterday because I hit a 5.11 mash ph, so 1/4 tsp (1/2 gram) of pickling lime to fix that to 5.31. So it sounds like you're running into the same thing I am. Over compensate on Bru N Water to achieve closer to what you are trying to get to. The goal is to avoid the adjustment mid-mash. I'd like to be at the right ph for the entire mash.

 

[robfar]

I no longer use pickling lime, I just hold the roast malts out until after conversion.

 

[mabrungard]

I no longer use pickling lime, I just hold the roast malts out until after conversion.

That is a good technique for avoiding a too low mashing pH and the excessive proteolysis it encourages and the resulting thinner beer body. However, you will still be left with a potentially lower than ideal pH in the finished wort and resulting beer. If less acrid roast flavor is your goal, then proper pH control and targeting is the way to get it.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Given all of the above information, I'm projecting a need for ~2.65 grams of pickling lime to hit a nominal mash pH of 5.4.

As an aside, I'm guessing that you are also adding ballpark 2.9 grams of table salt which you did not list.

 

[Wreck99]

I dont usually add table salt. I'm just afraid of adding too much picking lime.

 

[BrewMan13]

I brew a fair amount of dark beers, and I like using baking soda rather than pickling lime or whatnot. It was already in the cupboard, and seemed easier to deal with than pickling lime. I liked the results, so I stuck with it.

 

[jturman35]

I think the problem I had with using baking soda was it jacked up my sodium levels.

 

[mabrungard]

I think the problem I had with using baking soda was it jacked up my sodium levels.

Since baking soda is only added to the mashing water, it doesn't really increase the sodium content of the overall brew that much. Sodium is actually very beneficial to beer flavor in dark beers. My experience with typical dark beers is that the sodium content is boosted by about 60 ppm in the mash and the sparging water dilutes that roughly in half. 30 ppm sodium is nothing.

 

[Wreck99]

Revisiting this again. The brew has been delayed until September now since I just finished my electric system build and want to brew a couple simpler malt bills first to get the hang of the panel and process. Here is a screenshot of what I've come up with in Bru'N Water. I'm still a little uneasy on 2 grams of Pickling Lime, and that is only predicting 5.30. In my experience, the Bru'N Water spreadsheet is about 0.10 or so off in what I actually get, so I need room for error. I've never used that much picking lime before. Then again, I've not done water profiling on a stout yet either. All my stuff since messing with water chemistry has been lighter stuff. Any thoughts about this output?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

2 grams is not very much. Another guy on this forum was quite recently mentioning the need for 20 grams of baking soda per his recipe and Bru'n Water output. That might perhaps be ballpark roughly 10-12 grams of Pickling lime. He was indeed worried also.

 

[Wreck99]

2 grams is not very much. Another guy on this forum was quite recently mentioning the need for 20 grams of baking soda per his recipe and Bru'n Water output. That might be ballpark roughly 10-12 grams of Pickling lime. He was indeed worried also.

Ok that's comforting. I just know in my last beer, a wheat beer, adding 1/4 tsp of picking lime moved my ph alot. I suspect I'll have more resistance to change with all those dark malts in there but just being cautious with past experience with the stuff.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Ok that's comforting. I just know in my last beer, a wheat beer, adding 1/4 tsp of picking lime moved my ph alot. I suspect I'll have more resistance to change with all those dark malts in there but just being cautious with past experience with the stuff.

What does BW recommend as to Baking Soda for your recipe if you zero out the Pickling Lime?

 

[Wreck99]

What does BW recommend as to Baking Soda for your recipe if you zero out the Pickling Lime?

3.5 grams of Baking Soda instead of 2 grams of Pickling Lime to reach the 5.3 ph prediction (which I'm expecting to see closer to 5.4 based on past experiences). However, that puts my sodium up to 51

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

3.5 grams of Baking Soda instead of 2 grams of Pickling Lime to reach the 5.3 ph prediction (which I'm expecting to see closer to 5.4 based on past experiences). However, that puts my sodium up to 51

Unless you are monitoring your intake, 51 ppm sodium isn't the end of the world. But the point is that either way, baking soda or lime, this is not a huge correction.

 

[Wreck99]

Unless you are monitoring your intake, 51 ppm sodium isn't the end of the world. But the point is that either way, baking soda or lime, this is not a huge correction.

I'm not but at the same time I'd rather not add salt if I don't need to. My Dad does watch his salt intake and partakes in my product. Looking at my water report from when I was in PA it was 32 ppm and here it's its less than 30. I realize 51 is not a big deal though. It is nice to have options.

Now I just need to figure out what's causing my Bru N Water to be off all the time. At least it's been fairly consistent so I can plan for it.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Sodium is a required mineral for life itself. The adult RDA is 2,300 mg, and a restricted sodium diet still requires somewhere around 1,500 mg daily just to survive long term. So 51 mg/L (ppm) of sodium isn't much at all. There are nigh on 3 x 12 ounce bottles in a Liter.

 

[Wreck99]

Finally getting around to brewing this tomorrow. Is the advice then to go the Baking Soda route instead of Pickling Lime for this one? I calculated needing 4g of Pickling Lime to achieve the desired mash ph with everything else going into this one.

 

[mabrungard]

Sodium, in the right concentration, is very flavor positive in darker styles. While there are a couple of ways to get there, baking soda does kill two birds.