RIMS Build

[slimer]

Maybe adding a pressure relief valve on the tube may alleviate the worry.

 

[Sizz]

Maybe it's me but I would be concearned about steam pressure building up in the RIMS tube. I did have concearns about the high density element from my post earlier in the thread but I was hoping it would have worked out. If the high density element was enough to boil the water, my guess is that it would have scortched the mash also. I hope the low density element works as it would be a neat little two vessel RIMS brewery.

I'd like to give you credit for being right about the HWD element but you said it wouldn't work due to scorching, not this issue.

It does boil water if I try to apply 100F delta, which I certainly would not try to do during a mash recirc. With the new pulse width limiting feature of the BCS, one can effectively turn the 5500W element into any wattage element so scorching from too much power isn't an issue anymore. The only scorching issue remaining is regarding how aggressively it can step mash temps without scorching. We know people step mash with 1.5kw or 2kw elements fine. What about beyond that...? Can you shed any info Bakins? This is a power/surface area/flow issue.

The sound of the RIMS boiling was a little disturbing but I'm sure it would have been fine since the bubbles were passing through the output. But in order to truly test the limitations of an electric RIMS (primarily step mashing capabilities), which is what I want to do, I decided to go with the best affordable option, the LWD element. Using a LWD vs HWD adds about $25 in stainless piping.

 

[Bobby_M]

Run a test by putting the element full on and reducing the flow rate even more. You'll probably just get what sounds like a coffee maker. Sputter, sputter. You may still boil a bit even with the lower density unit but I'm guessing it will be fine.

 

[Sizz]

Nice. I love my BCS and hope to finish my project within the next few months.

You have a build thread going? I'd like to keep up with your progress.

 

[Lil' Sparky]

The only scorching issue remaining is regarding how aggressively it can step mash temps without scorching. We know people step mash with 1.5kw or 2kw elements fine. What about beyond that...? Can you shed any info Bakins? This is a power/surface area/flow issue.

Are you talking about mashout steps or protein->sacc steps? If the latter, your limiting factor will not be the heating element, but the flow rate. The only way you'll be able to take full advantage of that element is with a very high flow rate, at which point you'll risk a compacted grain bed. Realistically, you'll only be able to flow at ~ 1 gal/min without needing to stir the mash.

You can super-heat the wort as it passes through your HEX and raise your mash temp fine, but you're also going to denature your enzymes in the process. Most HERMS/RIMS users set the HEX output to 1-2º above the target. I think it's probably OK to have it a little higher than that initially, but you have to be careful, or you'll overshoot your step target. Most people that have these systems don't want to take that chance.

 

[Sizz]

Are you talking about mashout steps or protein->sacc steps? If the latter, your limiting factor will not be the heating element, but the flow rate. The only way you'll be able to take full advantage of that element is with a very high flow rate, at which point you'll risk a compacted grain bed. Realistically, you'll only be able to flow at ~ 1 gal/min without needing to stir the mash.

You can super-heat the wort as it passes through your HEX and raise your mash temp fine, but you're also going to denature your enzymes in the process. Most HERMS/RIMS users set the HEX output to 1-2º above the target. I think it's probably OK to have it a little higher than that initially, but you have to be careful, or you'll overshoot your step target. Most people that have these systems don't want to take that chance.

I hope it's flow limited. Flow is a constant and something I have no control over. If I do reach that limitation, that means I have plenty of the other variables, power and surface area. Are you saying this is already the case with a 1.5kw element? I'd guess no but I could be wrong. By going with the element with the largest surface area (which will fit inside my rims piping), I can maximize power until flow is the limiting factor. I'm guessing that power will be greater than the standard 1.5-2kw. At least that's what I hope. I wonder how I can verify that i'm not superheating the wort?

 

[Lil' Sparky]

I wonder how I can verify that i'm not superheating the wort?

You should monitor the HEX with a temp probe on the HEX output.

 

[Sawdustguy]

I'd like to give you credit for being right about the HWD element but you said it wouldn't work due to scorching, not this issue.

It does boil water if I try to apply 100F delta, which I certainly would not try to do during a mash recirc. With the new pulse width limiting feature of the BCS, one can effectively turn the 5500W element into any wattage element so scorching from too much power isn't an issue anymore. The only scorching issue remaining is regarding how aggressively it can step mash temps without scorching. We know people step mash with 1.5kw or 2kw elements fine. What about beyond that...? Can you shed any info Bakins? This is a power/surface area/flow issue.

The sound of the RIMS boiling was a little disturbing but I'm sure it would have been fine since the bubbles were passing through the output. But in order to truly test the limitations of an electric RIMS (primarily step mashing capabilities), which is what I want to do, I decided to go with the best affordable option, the LWD element. Using a LWD vs HWD adds about $25 in stainless piping.

I'm not looking for credit. I just hope it works out for you and you get it working.

 

[bakins]

I We know people step mash with 1.5kw or 2kw elements fine. What about beyond that...? Can you shed any info Bakins?

My RIMS element is a 5500W run at 120V, so about 1375W. I get only about a degree (or two) per minute rise. IN my BK, with the same type element at 240V, I get a much higher rate (sorry I haven't actually measured it, but I get almost 100% efficiency).

You will have to play with flow rate. I just run my RIMS as fast as it will go without sticking.

 

[bakins]

Realistically, you'll only be able to flow at ~ 1 gal/min without needing to stir the mash.

I can run my RIMS with the valves full open. I crush at .030. I mash fairly thin (2+ quarts/pound) and also use a grain bag. I have a B3 false bottom as well. Before the bag, I couldn't reliably recirculate at a trickle even with stock barley crusher crush without sticking. The bag also makes for easy cleanup. My 10 gallon round cooler can fit in the bag.

 

[Sizz]

I can run my RIMS with the valves full open. I crush at .030. I mash fairly thin (2+ quarts/pound) and also use a grain bag. I have a B3 false bottom as well. Before the bag, I couldn't reliably recirculate at a trickle even with stock barley crusher crush without sticking. The bag also makes for easy cleanup. My 10 gallon round cooler can fit in the bag.

Interesting. I never thought about using a bag to make cleanup easier. You just lift the bag out after the brew session and dump it? I was planning on a tip dump system for the MLT but I'm liking the bag idea.

 

[slimer]

You have a build thread going? I'd like to keep up with your progress.

I'm secretive...or lazy.

Maybe I should start my build thread. I am 2/3 of the way there.

Tell me more about the grain bag. I have smaller ones, where did you get one that's large enough to fit a 10gal cooler?

 

[Bobby_M]

I can run my RIMS with the valves full open. I crush at .030. I mash fairly thin (2+ quarts/pound) and also use a grain bag. I have a B3 false bottom as well. Before the bag, I couldn't reliably recirculate at a trickle even with stock barley crusher crush without sticking. The bag also makes for easy cleanup. My 10 gallon round cooler can fit in the bag.

I can understand why this helps. Anyone with a false bottom knows that a lot of the holes get permanently plugged with grain which kills the total open area. I'm sure that was something the Blichmann punched bottom is supposed to prevent. I would imagine putting a layer or two of stainless screen over the FB would also help in that regard but the bag obviously works too.

 

[bakins]

Interesting. I never thought about using a bag to make cleanup easier. You just lift the bag out after the brew session and dump it? I was planning on a tip dump system for the MLT but I'm liking the bag idea.

Yep, just lift it out and dump it in the yard. A trick I learned from the Brew-in-a-bag folks. I had horrible luck with every type of manifold, braid, and false bottom. The bag solved it (for me at least). I use the false bottom under it because it cost a lot and I felt guilty for not using it...

 

[bakins]

I would imagine putting a layer or two of stainless screen over the FB would also help in that regard but the bag obviously works too.

Yeah, I had though about making a "permanent bag" out of SS screen, but the bag cost less than $2 in fabric.

If/when I build my grand brew-in-a-bag rig, I'll probably do a SS bag. But it's little more than some vague ideas right now.

 

[Sizz]

The RIMS heater extension parts (coupler & 4" nipple) arrived today and I re-assembled the RIMS heater, version 2, with the low watt density element. Water goes in low port and exits high port so air bubbles won't get trapped inside.

Here's a picture of high watt density (HWD) and low watt density (LWD) elements side by side. It's hard to see in the picture, but the LWD is not only longer but thicker in diameter.

Hopefully I'll have time to test and tune this weekend. But for now, it's keg polishing time (thanks Bobby). Another benefit of the HLT-less system: you only have to polish 2 kegs! After medium gatorgrit pad:

Simple jig:

 

[Bobby_M]

Just throwing out ideas, but another configuration you can try is to reorient the top tee so that the trunk is on the tube and the temp probe and outlet are on the branches. I'm not sure how long the thermowell is but that setup could give you just a bit more buffering... maybe, and you wouldn't have that small high spot where air could accumulate.

 

[Sizz]

Just throwing out ideas, but another configuration you can try is to reorient the top tee so that the trunk is on the tube and the temp probe and outlet are on the branches. I'm not sure how long the thermowell is but that setup could give you just a bit more buffering... maybe, and you wouldn't have that small high spot where air could accumulate.

Good tip. I tested the version 2 heater today and the HLT temp probe was higher than the RIMS temp probe. In order to get the probe closest to the heater output, I switched to the config you suggested, and also switched to a 6" probe so that it was very close (1/2" away from the output). Now the temp shows a slightly higher RIMS temp than MLT temp which is what I'd expect.

On a side note, I'm almost ready to start drilling the kegs for the welded couplers. Is there any reason not to put the output for each keg on the underside? I like the benefits of being able to completely draining each vessel, and the ability to pre-drain the hotbreak/hops from the kettle (in theory) like a conical fermenter does.

 

[kladue]

A suggestion, use a tube or pipe nipple through skirt of keggle so it can be set on the ground or counter during cleaning if you make the keggles demountable. The through the skirt method is more work but it might be worth considering if you are not doing the tippy method like "BeerThirty's" rig for cleaning.

 

[Sizz]

Kegs are at the welder and should be done in the next couple of days. In the mean time, I played around with a MIG we have at work and made the brewstand frame out of 2" angle. I'm going for small and simple as you can see.

Welding was easier than I thought it was going to be but there's definitely skill involved in making a good looking weld. This is about as good as I could manage:

Assuming I get the kegs shortly, I should have everything assembled for a test run this weekend. I am out of beer so I may just dive in and make a batch.

 

[Sawdustguy]

Welding was easier than I thought it was going to be but there's definitely skill involved in making a good looking weld. This is about as good as I could manage.

Not a bad a weld. Remember, a grinder can make an ugly weld into a pretty weld.

 

[Sizz]

Not a bad a weld. Remember, a grinder can make an ugly weld into a pretty weld.

Any tips on grinding inside corner welds? I couldn't get to most of it unfortunately. Lots of rustoleum hammered paint helps...

 

[Bobby_M]

That was my one peeve with using angle stock. There really is no way to grind the inside corners. I went as far as my worn out (smaller diameter) wheel would go and called it a day. I suppose you could use a small disc on a dremel but there are bigger fish to fry.

 

[Sizz]

Here's how I plan on mounting everything. I see most people mount their RIMS heater horizontally but I'd need to go vertical due to the space limitations. Will this config hinder the pump flow? I remember reading some posts about tubing going too low and slowing the pump down, but I can't find that info now.

 

[Sawdustguy]

Here's how I plan on mounting everything. I see most people mount their RIMS heater horizontally but I'd need to go vertical due to the space limitations. Will this config hinder the pump flow? I remember reading some posts about tubing going too low and slowing the pump down, but I can't find that info now.

The March 809XX-HS has a max head of 12.1' and the regular has a max head of 4.3'. Either way I think you are ok.

 

[bakins]

I see most people mount their RIMS heater horizontally but I'd need to go vertical due to the space limitations.

It is easier for mine to drain with it mounted horizontally.

 

[slimer]

Mine's vertical, but make sure the heating element is on the bottom so you don't have air pockets around the element.

 

[Sizz]

Got the kegs from the welder. Welds look ok but there's dark stuff that's hard to get out. I guess a polish is required?

I spent most of the weekend rigging up everything and fixing leaks. I did a trial run with just water. Overall everything is working as planned except for pump priming issues. I will probably move my pumps lower a few inches which will make the lines slightly vertical and allow air to escape. The recirc mode held the rims temps within several degrees and the MLT temp within a few tenths. The tankless sparge mode worked well and provided a steady stream of 170F water at a flow rate of 1qt/min. I did not like swapping lines so I foresee more valves in the near future....

 

[BrewBeemer]

Kegs are at the welder and should be done in the next couple of days. In the mean time, I played around with a MIG we have at work and made the brewstand frame out of 2" angle. I'm going for small and simple as you can see.

Welding was easier than I thought it was going to be but there's definitely skill involved in making a good looking weld. This is about as good as I could manage.

On the last photo on post #80 I see a lot of cold weld buildup farther back in the photo caused by too slow of travel with only buildup on the surface with too low of heat causing no 'wetting' into the apparent base metal for fusion not alone any penatration hence a joint that can be broken apart by hand twisting apart alone, just stuck together. To make a good weld by grinding I would of fired you before the weld cooled. Sorry worked industrial construction requiring a welding certification and crew under me for each new job. Nuff said as i'll get reamed being a certified welded in my past. With 400 pounds plus of equipment with boiling water this is a no issue when dealing with a burn unit victim. I may be harsh just me but do not beat around the bush with coated B/S.

 

[Sizz]

To make a good weld by grinding I would of fired you before the weld cooled.

Good thing I'm an engineer and not a welder then.

I appreciate the input but I'd have to disagree with you. I probably added too much material and piled it all up but I think what you're criticizing is aesthetic and not structural. I beveled all of the edges a lot so there should be plenty fusion. There is no way this is coming apart. The first thing I did was test weld strength on a test piece. I unintentionally got to test the weld strength again when I discovered the effects of contraction for the first time. I tried to pry the beams apart by hand with no luck. I ended up cutting it with a horizontal band saw and starting over.