• We have a new forum and it needs your help! Homebrewing Deals is a forum to post whatever deals and specials you find that other homebrewers might value! Includes coupon layering, Craigslist finds, eBay finds, Amazon specials, etc.

Rice Beer from Scratch

HomeBrewTalk.com - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Community.

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

gfanz

Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2007
Messages
9
Reaction score
0
I'm living in the Philippines and would like to try my hand at brewing beer using rice instead of barley. There is actually an enormous variety of rice available (black, red, purple, etc. etc.) and some has been bred specifically for traditional fermented beers/wines.

My first question is whether anyone knows of some information on malting rice? If found information about using "Koji" (a fungus??) to convert starch to sugar in the sake making process, but I haven't found much about malting and then mashing rice to produce sugars.

Does anyone know, or Can anyone help point me toward some information on how I might be able to do malt rice and then mash it successfully?

Thanks, Greg
 

zoebisch01

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
5,180
Reaction score
11
Location
Central PA
Hrmm good questions. I do admire the fact that you are trying to use what you have available. Koji is used to produce Sake, which in fact might be a better avenue to pursue if you are trying to make a beverage strictly from rice. In beer it is typically used in small percentages of the total grain bill. I am not sure of the process. I think you just cook it to gelatinize it and then can mash it? But don't quote me on that, as I have never used it myself.

Personally I would try developing single grain Sake from each of the rices you speak of. In that case though, since Sake is really considered a 'wine' the wine forum might get you some better/more thorough information.

Cheers :mug:

I did look up rice and it must be mashed with base malt. So you either have to cook it, cool it and then add it as a percentage of the total grist or rely on the Koji to work their magic and make Sake...is what the story looks like at this point.
 

Zymurgrafi

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2007
Messages
2,426
Reaction score
16
Location
NEK, VT
Actually sake is not really wine. It is more akin to beer fermentation wise, but also not really beer??? :confused:

Anyways... Here is another thread that may help some:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=7357

I can not find it at the moment but I had come across a site for make a traditional "Korean beer" once. I believe it used barley in addition to rice, and no enzymes. I will try and find it.

If you want to make sake, that I can help with ;)
 

Zymurgrafi

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2007
Messages
2,426
Reaction score
16
Location
NEK, VT
Well, I did not find the site I was looking for but, this may actually be better for you.

http://www.fao.org/docrep/x2184e/x2184e09.htm

It talks about all of Asia and different rice fementation practices.

Here is what it says about the Phillipines:

Phillipines fermentation starter... Bubod... made from glutinous rice (flour) and comes in the form of a small cake. The microorganism is called Mucor, Rhizopus Saccharomyces.
Maybe you can get some of that cultured enzyme somewhere to try.

Hope that helps.
 

johnsma22

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2006
Messages
1,978
Reaction score
102
Location
Taunton, MA
Sake is definitely not a wine. Wine is fermented from fruit. Both beer and Sake are fermented from grains. With barley, the enzymes needed to convert the starches into fermentable sugars are created during the malting process, and then the conversion takes place during the mash. No so with rice.

Koji is rice that is cultivated with a mold that contains the enzymes necessary to convert the starches in rice to fermentable sugars. Before they used Koji mold, the enzymes that were used to perform the conversion were obtained from human saliva! People would have the job to put the rice in their mouths and then spit it out, the conversion would then commence. Yuck!

The rice is washed and soaked, then steamed. Koji is added to the rice to begin the conversion. Yeast is added along with more water and Koji, and the whole mixture is the mash and is allowed to sit for about 3-4 weeks. It is then pressed and filtered.

I am in the process of gathering what I need to make my first batch. I'll let you all know how I make out.
 

Zymurgrafi

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2007
Messages
2,426
Reaction score
16
Location
NEK, VT
Good luck with your Sake John. If you need any advice I can try and help. I have been making sake for a couple of years now and it is pretty decent. Still have not made a good dry sake, but it is enjoyable.

let me know :tank:
 

johnsma22

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2006
Messages
1,978
Reaction score
102
Location
Taunton, MA
Thank you for offering your help. I think I will be taking you up on it soon.
 
OP
G

gfanz

Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2007
Messages
9
Reaction score
0
I wrote a long reply this morning that seems to have evaporated.

Anyhow, most of it is moot now that I've found this article experiments done on brewing rice by someone in the Philppines.
http://www.pcierd.dost.gov.ph/publication/fora/forth/optimization.pdf

They seem to go into enough detail that I should be able to replicate their process, but seem to a be a little secretive about "grist:water ratios". I'm not sure what this ratio means. It does seems like it affected how much sugar they were able to get out of their malt, but I assume this ratio would be similar to mashing barley.

I've also located an article in a journal out of Ghana (http://www.ajol.info/viewarticle.php?jid=94&id=7911&layout=abstract)on producing rice malt for sugar syrup, which hopefully will help me optimize everything. I've optimistically paid $9 to have a copy of this article faxed to me, we'll see...
 

jager

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2006
Messages
81
Reaction score
0
Location
Gonzales, Louisiana
I wouldn't waste your time trying to malt rice. Everyone that I've read about trying it has failed. The fat found on the outside of the grain(I forgot what layer or layers) seems to **** up the taste, or it just goes to **** in the malting process.


You can buy the enzymes (amylases, glucoamylase, proteases) needed to convert the gelatinized crushed rice into fermentable sugars. They are used throughout the brewing/distilling industry.


Checkout this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Brewing-Practice-Woodhead-Publishing-Technology/dp/0849325471/ref=sr_1_29/103-7763752-4974244?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1174644807&sr=8-29

The book has great information on making beer from little or no barley.
It also covers how to use the enzymes listed above.


The only problem is that I'm pretty sure your not going to be able to by said enzymes on a home brewlevel, but It's definitely worth a look around.

But ask around at your local brewery's to see if they use buy said enzymes and if you can have some
 
Last edited by a moderator:

zoebisch01

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
5,180
Reaction score
11
Location
Central PA
Yes, I know that technically it is not a 'wine' hence the single quotes in my post and the explanation...if you find anything on Sake it is called a rice 'wine'. You never see it called rice 'beer' or rice 'beverage'. But for consistency sake, (that is sake not Sake :D) if the rest of the world calls it rice 'wine', we should too :D. It is probably more akin to Kombucha than it is beer.
 

zoebisch01

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
5,180
Reaction score
11
Location
Central PA
While we're on the subject of Sake, one pet peeve of mine...it is so darned hard to get really good Sake here. One of my favorite producers is Momokawa USA (sakeone). Their Pearl Sake is excellent imo. The one store has an array of Japanese Sake, but at $40 a bottle....I'll pass. Momokawa, otoh is like betwee $7 and $10.

Let us know how the batch turns out johnsma. It seems to me that the Koji is the expensive part. Rice I can get but has anyone come across a source of good inexpensive Koji?
 

Zymurgrafi

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2007
Messages
2,426
Reaction score
16
Location
NEK, VT
I get the Koji-kin from my local LHBS for $10. That is enough to make several batches of Koji. Enough for 3-4 batches of sake. So, does not seem that expensive to me. They do not regularly carry it but special order it for me it is the stuff from Vision brewing.

Are you talking about getting premade koji? If you get the spores and make your own it is much cheaper. I have had really good success doing it this way.
 

Zymurgrafi

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2007
Messages
2,426
Reaction score
16
Location
NEK, VT
gfanz said:
I wrote a long reply this morning that seems to have evaporated.
You posted it in another thread I saw it there last night. Here it is:

Originally Posted by gfanz

Thanks for all the feedback. This is really helpful.

I've checked around a bit as well and it seems that for some reason nobody relies on rice enzymes from the rice itself to break down starch into sugars, but this makes no sense to me as a biologist b/c there's no point in a plant making starch if it can't use it. I wonder it the enzymes it produces just don't perform well at the temperatures normaly used for mashing barley malt????

I found this information in discussion of "American Pilsener" which pretty much confirms that noboby relies on rice to do the heavy lifting in a mash. http://***********/departments/1583.html
The corn or rice used in American Pilsners is not malted, so it contributes no starch-degrading enzymes to the mash. The corn or rice starch is degraded by amylase enzymes from the malt or, in the case of very high adjunct rates — as when making a malt liquor — by enzyme preparations added to the mash.
Also in the FAO article mentioned above it says they don't mash rice in Asia without adding enzymes, but it doesn't explain why not (http://http://www.fao.org/docrep/x2184e/x2184e09.htm)
Malting occurs naturally through wet damage of cereals during storage, and is used for beer making in Europe. However, in Asia the malting process is rarely used in traditional fermentation processes. Instead, fermentation starters prepared from the growth of molds on raw or cooked cereals is more commonly practiced.
I'll Google around a bit more and see if can find something about mashing rice malt. I found an abstract from an article yesterday about a test of different kinds of rice done in Africa, but couldn't get the whole article.

As a last resort, instead of the traditional japanese saliva enzymes trick, I've seen some cows down the street at the vetrinary school that holes in their sides. I could stick a bag of mach in there overnight and probably get things kick started.
 

zoebisch01

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
5,180
Reaction score
11
Location
Central PA
knights of Gambrinus said:
I get the Koji-kin from my local LHBS for $10. That is enough to make several batches of Koji. Enough for 3-4 batches of sake. So, does not seem that expensive to me. They do not regularly carry it but special order it for me it is the stuff from Vision brewing.

Are you talking about getting premade koji? If you get the spores and make your own it is much cheaper. I have had really good success doing it this way.
PREMADE ?!?! ARE YOU MAD? :D

I was actually curious how to culture it lol. No just the seed Koji. So $10 for 3-4 batches, are they 5 gallon batches. That isn't all that bad then. My LHBS doesn't carry it, but I did find what appears to be a good site.

What do you ferment in?
 

Zymurgrafi

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2007
Messages
2,426
Reaction score
16
Location
NEK, VT
well, it is 5 gallons in the fermenter, but you end up with only about a gallon of sake after straining, filtering etc. Unless you are making straight doboruku which is unfiltered and with lots of sediment. If you make something more akin to a traditional Korean "farmers wine" you would probably use all 5 gallons! Think sweet alcoholic porridge.

Culturing the koji and fermenting the sake are fairly easy once you setup a way to control your temps. Other than that it is a bit unerving sanitation wise when you are used to beer sanitation. You have to stir it often so it is exposed often. :eek:

I have fermented in 5 gallon plastic buckets, a ceramic on steel pot, and large glass containers. I guess I do not recomend the plastic. I now have two glass jars that hold 2.5 gallons each. Next batch I will use them and divide each addition between them. If you can get a really large ceramic vessel that is more tradtional. I am thinking about asking some potters I know if they could make a 5 gallon pot!

For culturing the koji I made a shallow box out of maple. I place the steamed rice in there and put it inside a cardboard box with a heating pad and a towel over it. I keep a probe thermometer in there to monitor temp (85 F) and you mix it with your hands (eek!) every 12 hours until it is fairly well covered with mold, about 40 hours. Note I do wipe my hands with rubbing alcohol and let them air dry before mixing.

I guess we have hijacked this thread. Sorry. If anyone else wants to discuss further pehaps we should start a new thread, or add it to the other sake threads...
 
OP
G

gfanz

Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2007
Messages
9
Reaction score
0
jager said:
I wouldn't waste your time trying to malt rice. Everyone that I've read about trying it has failed. The fat found on the outside of the grain(I forgot what layer or layers) seems to **** up the taste, or it just goes to **** in the malting process.
Although this thread has migrated a bit toward the pleasures and perils of sake making, I'll come back to a comment, above, by Jager b/c I think he probably hit the nail on the head.

I just talked to a grain quality expert at the International Rice Research Institute and she said that the relatively large amount of fat in the husk and bran of rice grains is much greater than in other grains and is a major post harvest storage issue. Basically is goes RANCID, which means the fats convert into "fatty acids" which are soluable and could then put unpleasant rancid flavors into anything you brew from the grain.

I think I'll just experiment with the malting process using older grain I have on hand and then try to get some fresh grain directly from a farmer after the next harvest takes place. Presumably this still means that I'll have to cope with lots of non-rancid oil, but I presume there are additives and techinques (skimming, etc.) that I can employ to minimize this.

Incidently for anyone interested, I obtained a copy of the article from Ghana (sans two pages, which should be sent ASAP). The article gives a fair amount of detail about optimal duration and so forth for malting rice. Let me know and I can email the PDF.

Apparenly all known rice varieties have lots of oil in them, so I'm not likely to track down fat free mutant rice. Bummer... :eek:
 

Sir Humpsalot

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Nov 26, 2006
Messages
3,996
Reaction score
93
So are you saying, as far as homebrewers are concerned, nobody is using rice successfully, in any significant quantities, in the brewing process?

I'm not talking about the BMC's of the world. And I'm not talking about the people adding half a pound or two. I mean us homebrewing types...

Are you saying that you can't overcook rice to a mush, add a bunch of 6-row, and get some fermentables out of it without screwing up the mash?


Not trying to be combative here, I'm just not understanding...
 
OP
G

gfanz

Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2007
Messages
9
Reaction score
0
I'm talking about malting (germinating) whole rice grains and using them exclusively to make beer.

None of this would apply if you just want to add milled rice (which has had the outer fatty layers have been removed). If you're adding milled rice, my understanding is that you just need mash it with something that will give you enzymes to break down the starch-- like barley malt or enzymes.
 

zoebisch01

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
5,180
Reaction score
11
Location
Central PA
gfanz said:
Although this thread has migrated a bit toward the pleasures and perils of sake making, I'll come back to a comment, above, by Jager b/c I think he probably hit the nail on the head.

I just talked to a grain quality expert at the International Rice Research Institute and she said that the relatively large amount of fat in the husk and bran of rice grains is much greater than in other grains and is a major post harvest storage issue. Basically is goes RANCID, which means the fats convert into "fatty acids" which are soluable and could then put unpleasant rancid flavors into anything you brew from the grain.

I think I'll just experiment with the malting process using older grain I have on hand and then try to get some fresh grain directly from a farmer after the next harvest takes place. Presumably this still means that I'll have to cope with lots of non-rancid oil, but I presume there are additives and techinques (skimming, etc.) that I can employ to minimize this.

Incidently for anyone interested, I obtained a copy of the article from Ghana (sans two pages, which should be sent ASAP). The article gives a fair amount of detail about optimal duration and so forth for malting rice. Let me know and I can email the PDF.

Apparenly all known rice varieties have lots of oil in them, so I'm not likely to track down fat free mutant rice. Bummer... :eek:
Sorry for helping take the thread OT :D. It makes sense with the oils. That is why most things are degermed. Cornmeal is a classic example of this, without the process its shelf life is very very short due to the large percentage of oils. But they are only a nuisance when it comes to storage. I would imagine where you are now you have little intentions of long term storage for your beer. Why not try to make fresh batches (like a wheat, they can be ready in 3 weeks or so). I dunno just a stab in the dark. Keep in mind that rancidity is a function of temperature, so the hotter it gets the worse it is.

I'd be interested in the pdf. :)
 
OP
G

gfanz

Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2007
Messages
9
Reaction score
0
I think fresh is the key, though temperature will be a hassle in the tropics. Maybe I'll try lagering, if I can sort out some refrigeration...

Farmers are harvesting now, so I think I'll drive around and try to find someone who will sell me some freshly harvested rice.

I'm three days into my first malting experiment with some old seeds and it's looking all sprouty. I'm having a hard time believe it won't completely off by the ten day mark, but I'll hold onto hope.

I'll forward the PDF.
 
Joined
Mar 28, 2007
Messages
6
Reaction score
0
Hi Greg,

See my blog. I have some ideas for you. I am here in the Philippines and have been slowly but surely setting up my home brewery.

http://homebrewinghobby.blogspot.com

Yes, rice does have enough amalyse for starch conversion when fully modified as per the PDF you described. The diastatic power is not nearly what malted barley is though. You are likely going to want to add enzymes to your mash. Having added the enzymes you will be more free to roast some small portions of your malt to improve flavor, color etc.

The grist ratio is the amount of grain and water in the mash. Nothing special or secret about their numbers. They were looking for the ideal grist ratio of produce total disolved solids which would then have the right levels of fermentables, body, etc. Note that they do a side batch with amalyse and the enzyme chews up the starch. I've used enzyme with barley before and it keeps working and working until you mash out. You could make the thinnest beer in the world with enzymes and malted rice. Probably about 9% abv too! :cross:

I also have some advice on DIY, chilling and what not.

IMHO the best combination is to malt your own barley, add some rice as an adjunct if that is what you want to play with. Note that malting barley and malting rice are completely different in terms of steep cycling.

Look forward to hearing from you. Got yeast?

Cheers,


Dan
 
OP
G

gfanz

Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2007
Messages
9
Reaction score
0
That's great. Very exciting. Are you in Manila? I'll check out your blog.

No I ain't go yeast! Or hops for that matter... I was planning for those to be my next wild goose chase.

I'm just drying my first attempt. The article from Ghana that I referred to above found that letting the malt sprout for ten days gave max diastatic power, but after 7 days, the shoots were starting to lift the lid off the container (serious popcorn effect) so we spread it out in the driveway to dry it off in the sun.

How many days are you going? What variety are you using? I've just sourced 10 kg of black rice that I'm going to play around with. I'm also trying to find out about traditional varieties that might be interesting (some of the black rices from Laos apparently have been bred for making wine). I'm hoping that I can find a colored rice will give an unusual character.

Yeah. Malting is a serious hassle. It's an interesting experience, but industrial grade amylase is starting to look a whole lot more attractive.
 
Joined
Mar 28, 2007
Messages
6
Reaction score
0
Hi Greg,

No mate , sorry I am in Panay (Iloilo City ), but I still have a hard go at getting things. A bit confusing, but my wife is fluent in Tagalog , so that helps alot. LOL

I have lots of yeast from the US and UK. Maybe I can get you started with some liquid varieties. I have Cooper's ale, Munton's dry ale, SafLager, Doric ale, Laval 1118 champagne and so much more.

To be honest, I asked a beer geek friend of mine from Canada and posted a big package of dried yeast! Good to be loved eh? I have liquid washes in the fridge and can send when it's convenient. I'll explain how to wash like simple. OK?

I have to make "Mang Dan Inasal" called BBQ chicken now. I'll be back this evening.

Good to know there's someone out there that's not in Singapore or Taiwan.

Cheers!

Dan
 

zoebisch01

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
5,180
Reaction score
11
Location
Central PA
Hey I think it is pretty amazing that the two members just happened to get in contact through this thread hehe.

Let us know how the rice project turns out gfanz.
 
Joined
Mar 28, 2007
Messages
6
Reaction score
0
Yeah what can I say. The world is a big mess, you realize you are contributing to more mess, then you find out that someone is as crazy as you and it all seems to make sense again. Maybe crazy from the heat, but I say enjoy the heat and get over it, di ba?

Greg and I could probably put 1000 Filipinos to work making malted rice, rice beer and some new super pinoy breakfast cereal, but somehow I don't think that San Miguel would like us very much. Funny how old school business works here. At least we can make our own beer and tuba.

Anyways, I hope your homebrew is good and your relations are better. :rockin:

Cheers,

Dan
:ban:

P.S. My banana hasn't danced this well since 1982.
 

Latest posts

Top