Results from first comp... feeling frustrated, confused

[ReverseApacheMaster]

I agree that aeration and pitching quantity/health are major causes for the off flavors they are detecting, assuming that you are able to keep the fermentation temperatures in the low-mid 60s on a consistent (at least within 1-3 degrees of your goal) basis. If you are swinging from 62-72 in the course of 24 hours, you are going to get a lot more esters than if you keep it 62-65 in any given day.

 

[LVBen]

What is your bottling process like? Do you use a secondary?

 

[wolverinebrewer]

I'm not

Okay- well, I do run my wort through a big strainer before it goes into my fermenter. That seems to froth it up quite a bit. Then I stir for a few minutes with big sanitized spoon before I pitch the yeast. I have read (somewhere, probably on HBT) that running through a strainer can increase the oxygen in the wort quite a bit. That said- I know I should do something more. What do you recommend? I know a lot of people use oxygen stones... .

I also strain my wort from BK to fermenter. But I have to stop and clean the gunk from the strainer(always spray out and re-sanitize) 3 times before I get all 5+ gals through. I think I differ in most with my procedure because I will strain it again back into the BK. Then I will scrape out the strainer again and re-sanitize. Then I dump the yeast slurry into the fermenter and strain from the BK again. Then I dump back and forth one more time to mix up the yeast. Thats a total of 5 pours to get adequate aeration and I usually have foam over the top of the bucket.
As far as your comps go. I certainly wouldn't worry about the scores. I think it is very important to get your system down and just be able to brew consistantly. I just entered my first comp from brews I made last fall from my first five batches. I hadn't considered entering any at the time I brewed them but I sent them in just to be able to read the comments. I think it was good feedback and I'm already planning some new recipes just for comps.
I think you can brew great beers to drink and then I think you can brew great beers for comps. If you want medals, I would suggest reading the style guidelines and plan your recipes accordingly. But, like others have said, just because it doesn't fit a style doesn't mean its not great tasting.

 

[Bigscience]

I hate competitions too. I just my sheets back yesterday and it made me as mad as the last time. What I've learned is to put way more weight in what a National judge says over a novice.

Previously I entered an American Stout that was judged by 3 novices. All the comments were "too much hops", nothing really constructive. They didn't even read the guidelines of " Medium to high bitterness. Hop flavor can be low to high, and generally reflects citrusy or resiny American varieties."

I had also entered a beer that was between a Pale and an Amber as both categories. A certified judge said the APA was very Oxidized, Phenolic and that I needed to cool my wort faster and to watch my pH while sparging (score 26). (I cool 12 gal to 65F in 20 minutes, I batch sparge not fly and the pH was at 5.3.) A National Judge noted none of the flaws and scored it a 37.

Yesterday within the same flight I had a Novice say I should "try a bit less roasted malt to reduce the astringency" in my Sweet Stout (score 32). National judge said "Making roast more prominent may improve character. Increase roast bill 10-15%." (score 38) Who is right? I'm going with the National judge.


Generally I see lower scores from inexperience judges and random comments. They seem to think judging is more about tearing a beer apart and the more zings they can through in, the better a judge they are. Often they also don't seem to know the styles at all or have even read the guidelines.

What gets me the most mad (not the $6 fee or giving up the beer itself) is that I had to take the time to bottle some of my beer for some amateurs off the street to unconstructively rip on.

 

[gr8shandini]

Not a judge at all here, but I'm guessing that those with more experience probably either know how to better preserve their palates throughout the day, or know how to "read through" the fatigue to know what a beer should taste like. Personally, I find that when I switch up beers, whatever is different from the last one is very pronounced while whatever flavors they share seem suppressed.

I entered my first competition a couple of months ago and got exactly the comments I was expecting. It was an ESB with a bit of diacetyl. Personally, I like it that way (although this one was a bit high even for me), but if I tasted just the first sip or two after sampling a few other "clean" examples, I'm sure it'd taste just like butterscotch. For what it's worth, I happened to receive thoughtful comments from both judges and scored a 23, which I think is pretty good considering the known flaw. So not all of 'em are idiots.

 

[Homercidal]

I would not get worked up about it. Judges will vary in their tastes and opinions to a certain degree, and really your scores are above "average" for beer. I've seen and tasted a few beers that didn't even make 20.

The big thing is, if you want to improve, do what you are doing: Enter competitions and use that information to improve your process. Whether the cure is found in a book, or advice from a judge, or advice from the peanut gallery here, you will eventually find what you need to make bigger points.

But you won't really get what you need from a single competition. Enter the same beer in a few competitions if you can. Or maybe enter in a smaller competition, where there are fewer entries. The judges might have more time to not only sample the beers better, but to also write their tasting notes a bit better.

When you have a lot of entries to go through, it can be a hurry to taste them all and difficult to do each one proper lip service.

I think my first competition scored a 27 and I was a bit bummed, but after changing a few things I got better scores the more I did it. You'll usually have the odd off batch, but it sounds like you are doing most of the important stuff, so I would not worry.

Remember that one trick to doing well in competitions is to brew for a competition! The judges aren't looking for a great beer, per se, they are looking for a beer that matches a style's guidelines EXACTLY. They are tasting to see if you have the ability to brew to those guidelines. They are expecting you to brew to those guidelines. It doesn't leave a lot of room for goofing around with your recipe sometimes, but it can help you determine if your process is solid.

If I were to advise you based on your information, I'd say check your yeast health and quantity, water profile, and yeast strains. But mostly I think you are ok from what you've said. I don't think a degree or two in fermentation temp is going to make a huge impact as long as you can keep it fairly low. Large swings are going to be a problem, but it sounds like you keep an eye on it and adjust as needed.

Most of all RDWHAHB and keep on brewing!

 

[Randar]

Okay- if you've made it this far through my post, I REALLY, REALLY appreciate it. I truly love this hobby (I'm ten months in and have brewed 20 batches). I'm just not sure what to make of the feedback I received and I want to do something productive with it. I am espeically concerned about fruity esters in the beers where I didn't want them (all except the belgian blond) and the oxidation comments on the bitter.

Honestly, those comments and scores are not bad for someone with only 20 batches under their belt. Keys to keep track of are that you are not producing off flavors or showing signs of any other major flaw in your technique that appears across your entire range of brews.

You may not be brewing exactly to style (such as the comments about the grassy or vegetal tastes probably due to the heavy late/dry hop), so just take every comment with a grain of salt and try to learn whatever you can from the comments.

 

[Malticulous]

Always remember people do not taste the same way. Some people taste things other can not. If one judge notices something the others and you don't it doesn't mean it not there.

 

[android]

did you mention what yeast you used for the cream ale?

 

[gr8shandini]

Oh and by the way, would you mind sharing the recipe for that "California common?" Sounds like the only thing they didn't like is that it didn't fit the style. I'm intrigued enough to want to try it.

 

[BmillaTheBrewzilla]

did you mention what yeast you used for the cream ale?

I used the Wyeast 1272 American Ale II for that one (as well as with the amber). I had several washed jars of that yeast from a previous batch... so it made its way into a few of my brews.

 

[BmillaTheBrewzilla]

Oh and by the way, would you mind sharing the recipe for that "California common?" Sounds like the only thing they didn't like is that it didn't fit the style. I'm intrigued enough to want to try it.

For sure! I'll have to post it when I get home, though. It is a tasty brew... it has some of those steam beer qualities, but a very different hop profile.

 

[scottland]

I'm going to impartially comment on both sides of this one:

A. You got some consistent feedback on a couple of your beers. I see the word fruity (estery) on three beers, and I see oxidation notes on two beers. Whether or not the judges know what they are doing, if you're getting the same feedback on multiple beers, there is probably something in your beer-making process that can be improved.

Personally I find that the best part of competitions, finding the room to improve. Your beers don't look bad, better than average, but it sounds like there were some things that detracted from them being 'great'.

-Fermentation temps. This is a very misunderstood topic. When people(yeast companies) talk about the proper temperature for yeast, they mean the actual temperature of the fermenting wort. Room temperature and fermenting beer temp can be up to 10* F different. The Fermstrips everyone uses also don't give that good of an idea. They seem to read the 'average' temperature between the ambient air, and the temp of the wort.

You say you fermented these beers in the mid-60s - Was that the temp of the air, or the temp of the bucket/carboy? If my room temp is 62*, my ferm strip says 65, I'm assuming my fermenting wort is about 68*. make sure to take that into effect. If your room temp was 65*, your wort could have easily been 70+. I don't know your exact sceanario, but this is something i learned the hard way, and something many people get confused about. Just FYI. The only accurate measurement is a thermowell, or a thermometer directly in the wort.


-It looks like judges picked up some hints of oxidation in a couple brews. This could be a simple as a loose connection at your syphon tube that is sucking air, or some splashing when racking, or any number of reasons. Something to look at. It looks like you got good feedback though, take it with a grain of salt, and look at your processes.

B. Judging is tough and thankless. It's possible these judges weren't experienced, and were really trying to 'find' flaws in your beer that weren't there. It's also possible that these judges were experienced, and your beer isn't quite a amazing as you thought. I find competitions to be a good learning expereince so long as you don't carry your beers worth on your score. Comps can be an eye-opening experience for many people; Let's face it, we all think our beers are great. Take the results with a grain of salt, but consider what they found, and look for areas to improve.

 

[SC_Ryan]

The Fermstrips everyone uses also don't give that good of an idea. They seem to read the 'average' temperature between the ambient air, and the temp of the wort.

I have read that people who have tested these with a thermowell say that they are accurate to within a degree if the temp difference between the beer and ambient temp is 10* or less

 

[android]

I used the Wyeast 1272 American Ale II for that one (as well as with the amber). I had several washed jars of that yeast from a previous batch... so it made its way into a few of my brews.

from my experience, you really need to use am. ale or kolsch yeast with cream ales, for one it will reduce the esters (discussed already) and two, it will attenuate more than the 1272, which (as the judge stated) is desirable for the style. IMHO, 1.012 is a little high for a cream ale, especially with all that corn. also, consider flaked or instant rice for a portion of that corn (or all of it), i've used both and like the rice in the final product better (seems crisper).

 

[BmillaTheBrewzilla]

-It looks like judges picked up some hints of oxidation in a couple brews. This could be a simple as a loose connection at your syphon tube that is sucking air, or some splashing when racking, or any number of reasons. Something to look at. It looks like you got good feedback though, take it with a grain of salt, and look at your processes.

The possibility of picking up oxidation this easily does worry me. I feel like I do my transferring to the bottling bucket and then bottling pretty smoothly and efficiently without introducing any oxygen. I also use those oxygen absorbing caps.

I am definitely thinking about all the ways I can assist my yeast in getting a more healthy fermentation. The fairly consistent comments I got about fruity esters and the feedback from this forum has me considering better aeration. I am not sure if I want to go with an aquarium pump type system or something with pure oxygen. I don't like the thought of having to buy and then dispose of those oxygen tanks... I'm also considering my starter size... and hopefully someday soon I'll have the space for a little temp controlled fridge or freezer setup for better temp control during fermentation. Again, I really appreciate all the helpful comments I'm getting on this thread.

Shandini-here's that "California Common" recipe. In quotes because it only loosely fits the guidelines. In all honesty- I went home one night and built the recipe after going to happy hour with a bunch of co-workers. We were at a bar with a limited beer selection, so after a few Sam Adams I was really digging the noble hop spiciness. I also had been wanting to use the cal common yeast... hence this recipe. Certainly not brewed with the intention of competition. Calculations on Beer Smith... 5.25 gallons.

OG: 1.050
FG: 1.010
Color: 11.5 SRM
Bitterness: 29.4 IBU

U.S. Two Row: 61%
Vienna Malt: 31%
Caravienne (22 SRM): 6%
Chocolate Malt (350 SRM): 2%

Perle (7.5% alpha): .80 oz at 60 min
Hallertauer: (4.7% alpha): 1 oz at 15 min
Hallertauer: (4.7% alpha): 1 oz at 0 min
Hallertauer: 1 oz dry hop

Wyeast 2112 California Lager

Let me know how it turns out if you do it!

 

[scottland]

I have read that people who have tested these with a thermowell say that they are accurate to within a degree if the temp difference between the beer and ambient temp is 10* or less

Was this with a glass, stainless, or plastic? I find quite a difference with my plastic buckets between ambient and wort temps. I'd bet it's much closer with stainless due to the thermal transfer capabilities of stainless vs glass/plastic.

 

[SC_Ryan]

glass

 

[dedhedjed]

I just got scoresheets back on a Cali Common that earned a bronze in another competition I entered it in. It is definitely brewed to style, using only N. Brewer, and both judges, one BJCP national, remarked that I should have used N. Brewer and that my hop selection was off...a bit frustrating that they would mistake only N. Brewer hops for citrusy hops...

That said, I have gotten some great feedback from most of the competitions I've entered, and will continue to enter competitions for that feedback (and medals are nice...)

 

[chrispykid]

I used the Wyeast 1272 American Ale II for that one (as well as with the amber). I had several washed jars of that yeast from a previous batch... so it made its way into a few of my brews.

Washed yeast could also be a source of your estery flavors. It's just another variable to control. I was very excited to try yeast washing last spring and made a few batches with some washed Pacman. I don't regret the experiments because I absolutely love that yeast and it was worth it to try to stretch it out past the production date, but I had off flavors including some unpleaseant phenolics creep into my batches with 2nd and third generation pitches.

There's the sanitation angle which is much more unforgiving than it is in working with fresh from the lab pitches as well as the possibility of stressing your yeast out or possibly not selecting the best cells.

Everyboy's got a different comfort level, but I decided to work strictly with fresh yeast pitches until I can reliably get great fermentation with every brew. Your mileage (and brewing preferences) may vary.