response from grainfather management

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Sparger

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so i posted yesterday below about my frustration of purchasing directly from grainfather only to be undercut in price a week later by home brew supply. here is grainfather's corporate response to my inquiry as to what gives. lesson here is dont buy direct from grainfather - wait for a sale from a distributor.

Hi [sparger]

I’m sorry that you feel that you have now lost out by buying off us direct. We do our best to work with our distributors so all the retailers can make healthy enough margins to then support the end customer. While price fixing is illegal and we can’t pay any rebates you can rest assured that by buying off us direct we will be here to support you 100% as you go through your brewing journey which may not be the case for some of the retailers that feel they have to discount heavily to get the sale. We will be talking to our distributors about their retailers so we appreciate you letting us know.

Cheers

Kind Regards
Cjantra
 
Just because a retailer is willing to take a discount doesn't mean the parent company needs to honor it. There are retailers that will price match and others that will not. That is one reason I hate "sales". One day it will be one price, the next it will be another and later it will be yet another price. If you want to chase sales that is up to you. But it is unreasonable to expect another company to honor the sale price of the first.

The luck of the draw.
 
Are you happy with the product you bought? There will always be someone out there that got a better deal than you. If you never pull the trigger on a purchase because you are waiting for the BEST possible price you may just talk yourself out of buying anything ever again.
 
After years of working in retail and working with both manufacturers and re-sellers, this is pretty commonplace. As stores are able to charge huge mark-ups on some products, they're able to sell other products "at a loss."

We bought a bike trailer a few years back and the manufacturer was selling it for $700, while a big box store had it for $400. When I called the manufacturer, and spoke with 3 different people, they all told me the same thing, "If you want to save money, buy it from the store. If you great customer service the entire time you own the product, buy it from us."

I have no doubt that Grainfather while give you great customer service, while NB, Morebeer.... whoever else is selling them will require some hoops to jump through.

Just my two cents.
 
Yes, this is the norm. The retailer does not want to be in competition with the manufacturer for sales and the manufacturer doesn't want to upset their retailer channel.

Think about it. If Grainfather started selling their stuff direct at a price that leaves the retailer no room to make any money, the retailer is going to pass and put something else on his shelf.
 
Yes businesses can do what they want - yes they don't owe me anything. Here the dealor undercut the manufacturer. You'll notice that all of NB 20% off deals always exclude grain father and blichman products. Somehow this distributor didn't have the constraint NB had. Good business have a practice of matching prices. I will not purchase directly from grain father again. Lesson learned.
 
I think you'll find that unless they're having a sale or something, most manufacturers sell their products directly at MSRP, which of course stands for Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price. Some manufacturers forbid retailers from selling their product below MSRP, but most don't.

OP, other than pricing issues how are you liking that Grainfather?
 
Well, since you decided to post to the world about your injustice in attempt to convince others to avoid a company...then I suppose you open yourself to criticism.

Sounds like you are looking for them to give you a rebate because after the fact of your purchase, someone sold the product for cheaper. Unless the company offers a price match guarantee for x amount of time after your purchase, you are way off base to expect them to refund you money. The company responded very professionally to an absurd request, good on the company. I'd struggle to not be sarcastic in my response to idealistic notions from customer who clearly has little to no understanding of how businesses operate.

Grainfather professional, Sparger not so much
 
No I'm attorney with a masters in tax and have been involved in the sale of several multimillion dollar international businesses for an international accounting firm. Most manufacturers have agreements with their distributors to sell their product at a particular price. In return, if manufacturer also sells the product, it agrees to not go below that price, otherwise manufacturer could undercut its distributors every time. That is why grainfather direct never sells for less than 890 - it easily could and would if it had not contracted not to. If distributors start dropping the price this hurts manufacturer's sales. Manufacturers like distributors because that's what they do, manufacturers on the other hand manufacture. it is only when you get really big that you do both - grainfather is still in the growth phase. my goal was to get word out there that grainfather is not following (or its distributors) are not following the normal manufacturer-distributor arrangement. therefore, don't buy it from the manufacturer - find a distributor with a discount. this is not what grainfather wants but it is apparently not policing its distributors all well as it could. You obviously haven't shopped much in your life. most decent sellers will match their competitor's prices. and the normal arrangement makes it so that manufacturers and dealors aren't competing against each other. I am not way off base and you don't know much about business.
 
Sparger said:
No I'm attorney with a masters in tax and have been involved in the sale of several multimillion dollar international businesses for an international accounting firm. Most manufacturers have agreements with their distributors to sell their product at a particular price. In return, if manufacturer also sells the product, it agrees to not go below that price, otherwise manufacturer could undercut its distributors every time. That is why grainfather direct never sells for less than 890 - it easily could and would if it had not contracted not to. If distributors start dropping the price this hurts manufacturer's sales. Manufacturers like distributors because that's what they do, manufacturers on the other hand manufacture. it is only when you get really big that you do both - grainfather is still in the growth phase. my goal was to get word out there that grainfather is not following (or its distributors) are not following the normal manufacturer-distributor arrangement. therefore, don't buy it from the manufacturer - find a distributor with a discount. this is not what grainfather wants but it is apparently not policing its distributors all well as it could. You obviously haven't shopped much in your life. most decent sellers will match their competitor's prices. and the normal arrangement makes it so that manufacturers and dealors aren't competing against each other. I am not way off base and you don't know much about business.
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You are totally off base here. If distributors start dropping the price this hurts manufacturer's sales. I am sure that Grainfather sells to every retailer at a wholesale price so Grainfather gets the same no matter what the retailer sells it for. If the retailer wants to sell for less that is their choice. As stated by Grainfather they cannot "set" the price retailers sell for. That is price fixing and is illegal. As someone else stated if Grainfather starts undercutting the retailers they would stop selling the appliance, cutting the selling base of the product.

Since no one so far agrees with you, I would say you are barking up the wrong tree.
 
I see this often myself.... even at work.. We distrute own own brand of paper and medias for some of the printing equipment we sell... There is a local office supply company which buys it in bulk at such a discount that they are able to sell it cheaper than we do direct...So we lose markup profit but in the end get business without as much work or responsibility (support) as a result as in the case here. Been that way for years.

I think most people dont realize the amount of markup there is on these products.. The grainfather likely costs the manufacturer or designer less than half of retail to make and sell at a profit. If a particular distributor places larger orders they often get deeper discounts and therefore can sell for less with the same profit... I call it the "big box store effect" its nothing new...

And to take it one step further its even worse with todays common business structure when a designer has them made overseas and the manufactuer starts selling them direct for a fraction of the price that they would sell for through the main designer or distributor who commissioned the manufacturing in the first place...

This is why I try not to assume anything and do my homework before making purchases.
 
I suppose I have a different question. I don't have a problem with retailers offering discounts that the manufacturer will not. This is common practice for several reasons.

Who had the lower price?
 
Guess you never heard of Apple. They have maximum control over their distributors. That Iphone is always the same price everywhere. Only place I've seen the price go down is Costco - they are the only one who've been able to negotiate to sell at a lower price (that I've seen). FYI - those manufacturer rebates you see on many products is also being driven by the normal process. Manufacturers sometimes let retailers drop the price by a specified amount. Costco even posts them and charges you on the undiscounted price (sales tax reasons there - I won't get into it). I don't think it is unreasonable to ask a manufacturer what it can do for you, when you face this situation. You can, and should, always ask what can you do for me? It's the normal business thing to do. My point was to post that grainfather corporate was doing nothing in this case. If you like that - good for you. Buy from them. If you want a better deal, look elsewhere. Northern Brewer has excellent service too. Next time you get seated in a lousy spot in a restaurant - follow your own advice and just sit there. Don't ask for a better spot, you have no right to expect it. Contracts is contracts, you're not special, etc. Or, ask politely, it never hurts to ask. If you don't like me posting the answer I got, too bad.
 
Signup for grainfather emails on their site and you will be notified of deals. I bought mine last year on Black Friday from grainfather when they were offering 10% off sitewide and free shipping. I got the grainfather, graincoat, and sparge water heater for under a thousand.
 
Sparger said:
No I'm attorney with a masters in tax and have been involved in the sale of several multimillion dollar international businesses for an international accounting firm. Most manufacturers have agreements with their distributors to sell their product at a particular price. In return, if manufacturer also sells the product, it agrees to not go below that price, otherwise manufacturer could undercut its distributors every time. That is why grainfather direct never sells for less than 890 - it easily could and would if it had not contracted not to. If distributors start dropping the price this hurts manufacturer's sales. Manufacturers like distributors because that's what they do, manufacturers on the other hand manufacture. it is only when you get really big that you do both - grainfather is still in the growth phase. my goal was to get word out there that grainfather is not following (or its distributors) are not following the normal manufacturer-distributor arrangement. therefore, don't buy it from the manufacturer - find a distributor with a discount. this is not what grainfather wants but it is apparently not policing its distributors all well as it could. You obviously haven't shopped much in your life. most decent sellers will match their competitor's prices. and the normal arrangement makes it so that manufacturers and dealors aren't competing against each other. I am not way off base and you don't know much about business.
Click to expand...

gallery_250_8_227.jpg
 
Sparger said:
Home Brew Supply beat them by over $100
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Okay, that's a pretty good difference and it's from a fairly widely used online supplier. As per the price difference, I think that's on you. Yes, it would be nice if they matched the price, with a price match guarantee...but certainly not mandatory. I can feel your frustration...but that's the way it goes.

However, I'm a little surprised that Grainfather is insinuating that you will get support for their product if you buy it from them direct, but you will not receive manufacturer support if you buy from various reputable online dealers. We're not talking about buying from an unknown Ebay seller...these are homebrew shops masses of people use to get exposure to some of the latest and greatest homebrew equipment.

Is this how anyone else reads it, that you don't get Grainfather support if you buy from other online stores (such as morebeer, homebrewsupply, etc)?

I'll go back and read it again...
 
Sparger said:
Good business have a practice of matching prices. I will not purchase directly from grain father again. Lesson learned.
Click to expand...

Businesses? Yes. Manufacturers? No reason.

Sounds like sour grapes to me. This is exactly why *most* manufacturers do not do direct sales. Blichmann doesn't and the margins they give the dealers is enough to cover a small profit selling at the MSRT. If you bought a car from a manufacturer and the dealership down the street offered it for $4k less, do you think the manufacturer owes you money? Time to learn to Adult.
 
wishingiwasfishing said:
Okay, that's a pretty good difference and it's from a fairly widely used online supplier. As per the price difference, I think that's on you. Yes, it would be nice if they matched the price, with a price match guarantee...but certainly not mandatory. I can feel your frustration...but that's the way it goes.

However, I'm a little surprised that Grainfather is insinuating that you will get support for their product if you buy it from them direct, but you will not receive manufacturer support if you buy from various reputable online dealers. We're not talking about buying from an unknown Ebay seller...these are homebrew shops masses of people use to get exposure to some of the latest and greatest homebrew equipment.

Is this how anyone else reads it, that you don't get Grainfather support if you buy from other online stores (such as morebeer, homebrewsupply, etc)?

I'll go back and read it again...
Click to expand...
The people selling them new on ebay are distributors... How do you think they obtain them in bulk and sell them for so little? just my 2 cents but perhaps if they all charged more they could become as big as the distributors you mention But I for one would rather buy it with less of a markup.. I havent needed any "support" for how to use a kettle or plate chiller so im good saving a considerable amount of money instead. ebay and paypal both have purchase protection in case I ever do have a problem.
 
Why then do you not support your LHBS if they clearly had a better price. Online and direct from manufacturer isn't always the best deal... but looks like you've figured that out already!
 
Sparger said:
...Next time you get seated in a lousy spot in a restaurant - follow your own advice and just sit there. Don't ask for a better spot, you have no right to expect it. Contracts is contracts, you're not special, etc. Or, ask politely, it never hurts to ask. If you don't like me posting the answer I got, too bad.
Click to expand...


True it doesn't hurt to ask. But in your case, you didn't like the answer so you came into a forum to gripe about the manufacturer, when they did nothing wrong. Like you noted, you executed a contract. So live with its terms now. Besides, you're probably wasting more money writing about it than dollars you would bill if you did something productive with your time.
 
Sparger said:
...I will not purchase directly from grain father again. Lesson learned.
Click to expand...
Considering you have already bought the Grainfather - what else were you actually going to buy direct from them anyway?
wishingiwasfishing said:
...However, I'm a little surprised that Grainfather is insinuating that you will get support for their product if you buy it from them direct, but you will not receive manufacturer support if you buy from various reputable online dealers. We're not talking about buying from an unknown Ebay seller...these are homebrew shops masses of people use to get exposure to some of the latest and greatest homebrew equipment.

Is this how anyone else reads it, that you don't get Grainfather support if you buy from other online stores (such as morebeer, homebrewsupply, etc)?

I'll go back and read it again...
Click to expand...
No - they are saying that you will be supported by the company that you bought it off. Buy from morebeer and you have a problem, you contact morebeer.
Sparger said:
...I don't think it is unreasonable to ask a manufacturer what it can do for you, when you face this situation. You can, and should, always ask what can you do for me? It's the normal business thing to do...
Click to expand...
Nothing unreasonable in asking if they will refund you, it is unreasonable for you to expect them to do something.
 
Well looks like terms of fair market trade haven't been negotiated across the market for Grainfather and probably won't be, natural of the beast. Take it with a grain of salt and buy from an authorized retailer who sells at the best price as you'll always have support and customer service from two entities.
 
Sparger said:
I am not way off base and you don't know much about business.
Click to expand...
If you bought a new car and a few days or a week later a dealer was offering the same car for 10% less, would you contact the manufacturer asking for a rebate? Maybe you would, but I'd say you'd be better off brewing up another batch in your new Grainfather system and then relaxing and having a homebrew.
 
augiedoggy said:
The people selling them new on ebay are distributors... How do you think they obtain them in bulk and sell them for so little? just my 2 cents but perhaps if they all charged more they could become as big as the distributors you mention But I for one would rather buy it with less of a markup.. I havent needed any "support" for how to use a kettle or plate chiller so im good saving a considerable amount of money instead. ebay and paypal both have purchase protection in case I ever do have a problem.
Click to expand...


Hi auggiedoggy!


When I asked sparger the questions it was to clarify what he had done. I knew that he bought directly from the manufacturer, but I wanted answers to a few other questions rather than making assumptions and giving a response based upon assumptions. Over the years I've found it works best for me to get clarity before writing a response.

I do not have anything against Ebay sellers, I can understand how you may think I do from the way I wrote my response, to sparger. The reason I separated larger online retailers from Ebay retailers because of my experience with manufacturers in general. I've found that it is not uncommon that manufacturers offer no support from a sale on Ebay and some other smaller online shops. On the other side, my experience with some manufacturers is that many times they do offer their support if a product is purchased from larger brick & mortar stores.

The reason for me even questioning the manufacturers support of the product was not because sparger was talking about price matching from an online retailer...but because of the wording in the response from Grainfather themselves.

When referencing support, I was thinking more in lines of defects with the materials, or in intended operation...not how to questions. One may assume that a manufacturer would certainly cover any product defects in the materials...but it cannot always be taken for granted that the manufacturer will cover defects if you purchase from an "unauthorized seller".

Paypal certainly does offer protection and I purchase with them quite a bit. I've also been caught up in a Paypal snafu before. It was incredibly difficult, and lengthy, to get out of the situation. If after many phone calls, if I hadn't (finally) been in contact with that one Paypal support worker who took the time to actually listen to what my problem actually was (instead of their error code and operating procedures telling them what the problem is written up as)...if I hadn't gotten that person...it would have even more difficult to remedy the situation. During this time, I was unable to purchase anything online that used the Paypal engine...this included every seller that even uses Paypal on the back side of their online checkout. It became surprising to me how many checkout carts still use some portion of Paypals services while not giving the customer any idea that it's a Paypal transaction.



mattd2 said:
No - they are saying that you will be supported by the company that you bought it off. Buy from morebeer and you have a problem, you contact morebeer.
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That's how I read it too. While I can agree with them that if you bought it from a distributer, you should start you services with them. If it's an issue with quality, operational defect, etc...and the retailer you bought it from isn't taking care of the problem for you...I would certainly hope the manufacturer would step in and take over your service and make things right. From their wording, it sounds as if it is you an the retailer...if so, that is a shame.


treacheroustexan said:
FWIW, I bought my grainfather from morebeer and still receive awesome support from grainfather.
Click to expand...

That is awesome to hear...and how I hoped Grainfather would stand behind their product. I was a little surprised to see their wording, and that concerned me more than the pricing issue.

On the pricing issue, that's just the way it goes. I believe responsibility falls on the consumer. A person cannot like it...but that's how it goes. If anyone really wants a possibility to get some of the years best pricing...I'd recommend waiting until the post Thanksgiving sales...but you're still not assured any confidence in pricing then either.



Either way...enjoy your Grainfather!
 
Sparger said:
Guess you never heard of Apple. They have maximum control over their distributors. That Iphone is always the same price everywhere. Only place I've seen the price go down is Costco - they are the only one who've been able to negotiate to sell at a lower price (that I've seen).
Click to expand...

You should have bought the I-grainfather.;)
 
Sparger said:
Guess you never heard of Apple. They have maximum control over their distributors. That Iphone is always the same price everywhere. Only place I've seen the price go down is Costco - they are the only one who've been able to negotiate to sell at a lower price (that I've seen). FYI - those manufacturer rebates you see on many products is also being driven by the normal process. Manufacturers sometimes let retailers drop the price by a specified amount. Costco even posts them and charges you on the undiscounted price.
Click to expand...
Its ironic you chose this analogy... Do you do a lot of shopping on your iphone? do you know that the prices that come up at a lot of retailers are often higher when viewed from apple or android devices?
http://lifehacker.com/5973689/how-w...your-information-and-what-you-can-do-about-it
http://www.cbs46.com/story/27923981/cbs-investigates-online-shopping-disparities
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/do-companies-charge-online-shoppers-different-prices/

and of course the system apple uses to sell the iphone... Its actually not a very good system for distributors and they make very small profits compared to other sales.http://www.macworld.com/article/2024257/how-apple-sets-its-prices.html
 

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