Requesting help on a simple 240v BIAB build

[StarrHill]

I had been planning on a 120v, 2-element eBIAB, but then discovered a 240V 50A circuit in the garage behind my workbench! So now I'm looking to step up to 240v. I'd like to do a simple control panel like the one below. The things I'm not sure of are what, if any, variations need to be made for the 50A breaker, instead of 30A, and a 5500W element, instead of 4500w. I'd appreciate any help for this noob to electric brewing. Thanks in advance

 

[Bobby_M]

If I were doing BIAB, I'd want the ability to drop the element down to 120 volts/1375 watts while you have grain in the kettle. You can accomplish it with a 30amp DPDT switch like the Bryant 3025.

 

[StarrHill]

My understanding was that the pid keeps the temperatures at a set point during mash. I'm not understanding why I would care about limiting wattage at one point or another

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[Bobby_M]

Well, even with a ULWD element at 5500 watts, running it at 1375 watts reduces watt density to 25% of original. The PID does control temps, but when it pulses the element, it's full on even for a short period of time. I'm probably over thinking it and running 5500 watts is probably fine.

 

[Brad2287]

My understanding was that the pid keeps the temperatures at a set point during mash. I'm not understanding why I would care about limiting wattage at one point or another

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The movement of wort tends to be inhibited during mashing. By running a 5500 watt element at 120 you will quarter the power. This just further reduces any chance of scorching. Make sure the PID is tuned for which ever you do choose. You could use manual mode to get near the temp at 240 V switch to manual and 120 for the mash then back for the boil.

For the 50 amp service you will want a 30 amp breaker somewhere inline as well as gfci. You could run #6 wire to a 30 amp gfci 240 subpanel then run #10 wire out of the sub panel and into the control panel and wire as is. A 30 amp gfci could be spendy. The other option is have 50 amp service to the control panel then have a 25 or 30 amp DIN mount breaker in the control panel.

There might be an easier way but I can't think of one right now.

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[Brad2287]

The diagram also calls for a 25a DPST switch. Being that a 5500 watt element draws 22.9 amps and a 4500 watt element draws 18.75 amps I would probably go with a 30 amp switch. It may not be necessary but I alsways over build to make sure I am not pushing any limits. Just make sure everything is sized appropriately for 22.9 amps.

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[StarrHill]

Thanks for input. Does PJ want too weigh in, since he drew the original diagram?

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[StarrHill]

This is starting to sound pretty complicated. I hate not to use the available 240v, but I didn't realize that there was such a problem having a 50A breaker instead of 30A. I have two separate 20A gfi 120v circuits in the garage, so I may just go with a two element 120v system like disintegr8r built. Am I seeing this as more complicated than it is?

 

[Brumateur]

This is starting to sound pretty complicated. I hate not to use the available 240v, but I didn't realize that there was such a problem having a 50A breaker instead of 30A.

Just install 30A double breaker inside your panel. It costs around $10.

 

[StarrHill]

I'm sorry to ask such stupid questions, but I'll still need to install a gfi outlet, won't I ?

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[pogden]

I'm sorry to ask such stupid questions, but I'll still need to install a gfi outlet, won't I ?

Yes, you should install a GFCI somewhere. You can either replace the 50A breaker in your service panel with a 50A GFCI breaker (or, maybe even a 30A GFCI - see below), or you can install a spa panel with an 50A (or 30A) breaker "inline" between the service panel and your brewery.

Regarding 50A vs 30A: If you already have a 50A circuit (and it sounds like you do) - great! This just means that the wiring/receptacle/breaker can handle up to 50A and will trip only if you draw more current than that. If a 30A GFCI is cheaper than a 50A GFCI, you may be able to replace the 50A breaker with a 30A GFCI breaker ... as long as you don't have other loads on that same circuit that may be operating at the same time as your kettle. By installing a lower-amperage GFCI breaker you will be decreasing the current that can pass through the circuit at one time, but I don't think you will be creating a safety hazard (disclaimer: I am NOT an electrician!). On the other hand, installing a 50A GFCI will provide the ground fault protection you need without compromising the capacity of the circuit.

I would rather not contradict a fellow HBT'er, but I think Brad's advice to install a 30A breaker AND a GFCI doesn't make sense, or at least is a bit misleading. You should definitely install a GFCI, but you don't need to decrease the current capacity of the overall circuit to 30A. If the easiest/cheapest way to get GFCI protection is by installing a 30A GFCI breaker, fine. But a 50A GFCI breaker should work as well and not decrease the capacity of the rest of the circuit.

 

[StarrHill]

Thanks for that very thorough and clear explanation! So, assuming I install a 50a gfci breaker (the kettle will be the only thing on this circuit), what other changes, if any, would I need to make to the wiring diagram in op?

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[BigFloyd]

Why not just install a 50A spa panel (with a receptacle mounted on the side) wired to the 50A 240V circuit? The GFCI inside the spa panel is going to trip much faster anyway in the event of a problem. Also, for some odd reason, the spa panels at HD containing the 50A GFCI breaker tend to be a bit less expensive than the same 50A GFCI by itself. You plug the control panel into the spa panel receptacle.

I haven't had any problems with doing BIAB with the 5500W ULWD element.

I'd strongly suggest that the OP go ahead and use the PJ schematic that includes a circuit/switch for a 110V pump in case you ever want to use one in the future.

So, assuming I install a 50a gfci breaker (the kettle will be the only thing on this circuit), what other changes, if any, would I need to make to the wiring diagram in op?

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Nope. You should set it up so that everything will run through the GFCI. That's the only way that your E-stop button will work.

 

[BigFloyd]

Here's the one I used (thanks PJ!). If I were to do it all over again, the only thing I'd change is to omit the flasher/buzzer and the switch to disable the same since I don't use it much at all. Even though they were extra work to wire in, I'm very pleased that I went with the lighted switches since they left you see at a glance what is active.

 

[Brad2287]

I agree the swap of a 30 amp gfci into the main panel would be the easiest way to go.
The reason I suggest a 30 amp breaker is for over current protection to any 10 gauge wire that is downstream. It is the same reason you see the 25 amp din mount breakers in most of the 50 amp builds. Take a look at the 50 amp diagrams on this page.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/list-pj-electrical-diagrams-382286/

They all have the 50 amp feed running through a 25 amp breaker which then goes to the elements being ran.

 

[StarrHill]

So I found a 50a gfci breaker for $72 online (right brand for my box, two pole). Looks like that's going to end up the cheapest and easiest way for me to get gfci protection.

From that point, I should be good to wire up my control panel like the diagram in op, but I'll be safe to use a 5500w element. Is this accurate?

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[BigFloyd]

So I found a 50a gfci breaker for $72 online (right brand for my box, two pole). Looks like that's going to end up the cheapest and easiest way for me to get gfci protection.

From that point, I should be good to wire up my control panel like the diagram in op, but I'll be safe to use a 5500w element. Is this accurate?

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Here's the 50A ($65.97 at Home Depot) GFCI spa panel I have mounted on the wall near the main box in my garage. There's plenty of room on the side of the panel to mount a receptacle into which you plug the 10g 4-wire line coming out of your control panel.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Midwest-Electric-Products-50-Amp-240-Volt-240-Watt-Non-Fuse-Metallic-Spa-Panel-Disconnect-with-GFI-UG412RMW250P/100686230