Repitching after 72 hours?

[boconn03]

Okay, I've read numerous posts on repitching inactive yeast.
1) Patient (check) - Now at 72 hours no activity
2) Carboy Sealed Properly (check, and double check)
3) Smack Pack (check) - inflated fairly well
4) Temperatures (check) - wort was at 72 degrees at pitch
5) OG ok (check) 1.060
6) Reagitate (check) - still no activity
7) Ambient Temperature at 70 for full 72 hours

I'm only posting this because I AM going ot repitch yeast. This will be my second time ever having to repitch due to inactive yeast. My question is, what are the proper steps for repitching. The last repitch I did, was a simple addition of dry yeast. The beer tasted horrible. It literally tasted yeasty, I believe from the dead yeast on pitch 1.

Do I add some type of fining (like Geltin) to pull the dead yeast to the bottom?
Do I next siphon into another carboy leaving the dead yeast and trub in the old?
Do I finally repitch yeast? (if so, can I use liquid again)? I can tell a difference in flavors between the dry and liquid?

Help a newbie understand.

 

[Revvy]

Have you taken a gravity reading yet????? Did you the other time you felt you had to add more yeast?

 

[boconn03]

Yes to batch number 1 with no change. My current batch I will open up tonight to make sure we have no activity. I really hope it's just a slow yeast strain.

 

[Clonefarmer]

What was the date on the smack pack? Inflated "fairly well" sounds iffy. Did it take a long time to inflate?

+1 To taking a gravity reading.

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

Do I add some type of fining (like Geltin) to pull the dead yeast to the bottom?

Dead yeast will fall to the bottom very quickly on their own.

2) Carboy Sealed Properly (check, and double check)

You are fermenting in a carboy? You should be able to see what is going on inside. What is it doing?

How much yeast did you pitch and date from package?
Did you add oxygen?
What yeast strain are you using?

 

[boconn03]

Nothing happening in the Carboy (literally).

Didn't check yeast date, for what it's worth my brew store is always busy and I'd be shocked if they had older yeast.

I use a large funnel when pouring the wort into my carboy. This generally speaking oxygenates it pretty agressively. I also will swirl the wort around for about a minute after all wort has been added.

Wyeast 1007

 

[cruckin78]

I say take a gravity reading, if your still at OG....repitch....

 

[boconn03]

What was the date on the smack pack? Inflated "fairly well" sounds iffy. Did it take a long time to inflate?

+1 To taking a gravity reading.

Yeast Pack expanded for 6 hours prior to pitching. I've had packs expand so as the bag looks like it's going to explode. This pack expanded to about 2/3 capacity (guesstimate).

I also had the pack in my kegerator at 37 degrees, if that helps with figuring this out.

 

[Clonefarmer]

Didn't check yeast date, for what it's worth my brew store is always busy and I'd be shocked if they had older yeast.

Always check the date. Allot of customers buy grain and dry yeast. Liquid can have a slow turnover.

 

[boconn03]

I say take a gravity reading, if your still at OG....repitch....

If I repitch, my biggest question is should I move the wort into a clean/new carboy and get rid of the trub on the bottom? I think that's what caused my first bad batch of yeast to taste like hell.

Can I use liquid, or do i have to go with dry. The brew store guy told me dry only (not sure why).

 

[Clonefarmer]

Yeast Pack expanded for 6 hours prior to pitching. I've had packs expand so as the bag looks like it's going to explode. This pack expanded to about 2/3 capacity (guesstimate).

I also had the pack in my kegerator at 37 degrees, if that helps with figuring this out.

It's hard to say without a date.

Six hours is a short amount of time. Especially if the pack came straight from 37 degrees.

 

[Clonefarmer]

Can I use liquid, or do i have to go with dry. The brew store guy told me dry only (not sure why).

You can re pitch with whatever type of yeast you want. Is it the same store you got the smack pack from?

 

[boconn03]

You can re pitch with whatever type of yeast you want. Is it the same store you got the smack pack from?

Actually, no. My store is closed on Mondays and I didn't want to lose my beer, so I drove to the next store.

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

Take a reading and go ahead and repitch with whatever yeast you want if the gravity hasn't moved.

Here are my issues with all of this though...

If the yeast pack swelled, then there was at least *some* active yeast in there and they should have started fermenting your wort. That makes me think something else is at work here, such as not enough oxygen. Pouring through a funnel and a swirl is really not enough to appropriately oxygenate your wort for fermentation. If you don't have an oxygen stone then you can use the cover and shake method that I am sure there are some threads about on this forum.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/power-drill-paint-mixer-attachment-aeration-90052/#post972829


Also, you did pull the yeast pack out of the fridge for those 6 hours, right? If you left it at 37*F and then pitched it into your 72*F wort, you could have shocked the yeast and perhaps killed a few of them. The most important thing with the smack pack is to just get it up to fermentation temp. The "smacking" and the swelling is just to proof the yeast. You really don't even have to "smack" them, as you are not growing any yeast inside the pack. Another reason that you really should be making a starter for your beers...

 

[brodie113]

I wouldn't move it to a new vessel but that's just me. If your process is clean, it shouldn't be an issue to transfer it and maybe you'll pick up some more O2. I would probably go for dry yeast, use a couple packs of liquid yeast, or pitch a starter of liquid yeast. of course, the timing is important here so you might not have the luxury of a starter.

Good job being patient too!

 

[samc]

Even if you did the absolute worst aeration job ever, a healthy pitch of yeast would still get you a fermentation of some kind. It might stall and finish too high, but you'd see results. I'd always do a starter with liquid, unless you are going to pitch multiple packages/vials of yeast.

For me I'd just rehydrate a quality dry yeast and pitch that although I've not had this situation come up where I did not get anything to start fermenting. If you are doing liquid again, make a starter and pitch at high Krausen.

 

[boconn03]

UPDATE -
6pm est and I took a gravity reading. Wouldn't you know we went from 1.060 to 1.040. My ONLY guess as to why i'm not seeing anything is that i've got about 4.5 gallons in a 6.5 gallon carboy.

Since the yeast is obviously working, do I simply leave it alone?

 

[Clonefarmer]

UPDATE -
6pm est and I took a gravity reading. Wouldn't you know we went from 1.060 to 1.040. My ONLY guess as to why i'm not seeing anything is that i've got about 4.5 gallons in a 6.5 gallon carboy.

Since the yeast is obviously working, do I simply leave it alone?

Yes. It should be fine if the gravity is dropping.

 

[brodie113]

Sounds like it is working... Are you seeing any krausen or other signs the fermentation is going on (of course aside from the gravity dropping)?

I often ferment in a half full fermenter and see all the normal things you would expect from a healthy pitch of yeast. I guess my point is size doesn't matter.

 

[boconn03]

Sounds like it is working... Are you seeing any krausen or other signs the fermentation is going on (of course aside from the gravity dropping)?

I often ferment in a half full fermenter and see all the normal things you would expect from a healthy pitch of yeast. I guess my point is size doesn't matter.

8am -
We have Krausen!

Part of the rest of the mystery:
I went back to the brew store to buy the dry yeast to kick it back up and when I was there last there were 2 packets of 1007 yeast. I bought one of those packets. I decided to check to see what the date on the other was and it read 10/2010. I asked the store clerk how long these smack packs are good for. He said typically 4 months. I'm wondering if I bought a pack that was on the end of it's life span for active cultures?

After all of this, the store clerk and my stress have driven me to take on creating my own yeast starters and starting to read a little more about yeast science. Doing so, I learned that lagers require a considerable amount more yeast than ale's. This batch is an Altbier (kinda in between an Ale and a Lager). My diagnosis from a guy who doesn't know much: I probably got some slow yeasties AND I probably didn't get enough of them.

Thank you to all who spread the love....

Cheers

 

[Clonefarmer]

8am -
We have Krausen!

Part of the rest of the mystery:
I went back to the brew store to buy the dry yeast to kick it back up and when I was there last there were 2 packets of 1007 yeast. I bought one of those packets. I decided to check to see what the date on the other was and it read 10/2010. I asked the store clerk how long these smack packs are good for. He said typically 4 months. I'm wondering if I bought a pack that was on the end of it's life span for active cultures?

After all of this, the store clerk and my stress have driven me to take on creating my own yeast starters and starting to read a little more about yeast science. Doing so, I learned that lagers require a considerable amount more yeast than ale's. This batch is an Altbier (kinda in between an Ale and a Lager). My diagnosis from a guy who doesn't know much: I probably got some slow yeasties AND I probably didn't get enough of them.

Thank you to all who spread the love....

Cheers

You can use the Mrmalty.com pitching calculator to see approximate viability depending on the age of the smack pack.

Mrmalty.com also has different pitching rates for ale, lager and hybrids like Altbier and Kolsch.

 

[boconn03]

You can use the Mrmalty.com pitching calculator to see approximate viability depending on the age of the smack pack.

Mrmalty.com also has different pitching rates for ale, lager and hybrids like Altbier and Kolsch.

WOW.... after 4 months (according to Mr. Malty) the smack packs are only 16% viable. It also said that I'd need 11.8 of those packs (October) to get to where I need to be.

 

[brodie113]

Good diagnosis man. Starters are great and almost always help.

Let us know how the low pitch rate affected the batch...

 

[Clonefarmer]

WOW.... after 4 months (according to Mr. Malty) the smack packs are only 16% viable. It also said that I'd need 11.8 of those packs (October) to get to where I need to be.

It's surprising how fast viability drops.

 

[kanzimonson]

Learn a lesson about making starters?

I learned the same lesson, the same way.

 

[RogueGoose85]

I just want to confirm, so did you end up repitching? Or did it just take longer to get going?

 

[boconn03]

No repitch necessary. I took a gravity reading with no visible activity and recorded -.020 from OG. I let it set for 8 more hours and we have krauzen. I have an active fermentation now without having to touch a thing. I will say that i was at 80 hours before I could <SEE> activity.