(Relatively) Quick Flanders Red with Philly Sour & Brett only...done before?

[stealthfixr]

I've got two Philly Sour batches done, and it's actually an amazing yeast for making quick, soured, clean beer. Both batches were household hits and the kegs drained quickly. The souring is very effective--my last batch got down to 3.13 pH. However, it is not as 'complex' a souring as a Lambic or Flanders Red (although both did seem to 'improve' over time). So, trying to evolve on the Philly Sour results, I was thinking of combining it with a secondary Brett, like Omega's All The Bretts offering.

Done before? Any recommendations? While I do not imagine that the souring will be as complex as a true, year-long fermented funky beer, will it get kind of close? Do you think it will remotely taste like a true Flanders Red?

 

[VikeMan]

IMO a "true" Flanders Red should have some acetic acid character. I don't think the Philly Sour yeast produces acetic acid in significant amounts. Brett might, if you give it enough oxygen, but I suspect the O2 would also cause some staling issues.

Disclaimer: I haven't tried what you're suggesting.

 

[Danbar]

I've got two Philly Sour batches done, and it's actually an amazing yeast for making quick, soured, clean beer. Both batches were household hits and the kegs drained quickly. The souring is very effective--my last batch got down to 3.13 pH. However, it is not as 'complex' a souring as a Lambic or Flanders Red (although both did seem to 'improve' over time). So, trying to evolve on the Philly Sour results, I was thinking of combining it with a secondary Brett, like Omega's All The Bretts offering.

Done before? Any recommendations? While I do not imagine that the souring will be as complex as a true, year-long fermented funky beer, will it get kind of close? Do you think it will remotely taste like a true Flanders Red?

did you end up trying this? I was thinking of doing the same exact thing so curious if you did.

 

[stealthfixr]

Not yet, it's on the list of things to do. I may brew this in the next batch or so--please let me know how it goes for you if you brew sooner. There's also a Lallemand Philly Sour Q&A this week where I will ask about Brett co-fermentations (since they are both slow-ish).

 

[monkeymath]

Hm, if you're ageing with brett anyways, why not have some lacto and pedio in as well? It's certainly going to add to the complexity.

 

[Danbar]

For me, it's a time thing. I am hoping that the quick soured Brett beer would take much less time than adding pedio/lacto/brett together and still taste pretty good, although I am sure not as good as adding the pedio/lacto/brett.

 

[sykesey]

So I was thinking about this as well as i have a pale saison-type beer fermented with lachancea and then wlp670 brett/saison blend currently fermenting. It's pretty darn complex so far especially for a 1 week old wort, but going for more of a dry-hopped sour saison beer on this one. Good thing is it's already close to terminal gravity after a week - the other 9L i left behind when I split the batch is still going with just lachancea... probably a few days left.

I might try one out with a flanders red malt bill, add some aged hops and oak dominoes to it, even mix in a very small amount of white vinegar for the acetic side of things. I think it has potential, it's not *quite* going to be the same thing but after a couple of months of brett funking things up it should be in the general ballpark.

 

[sykesey]

So i have my test batch in the fermenter now. I pitched rehydrated Philly sour and it took off pretty well, only an hour or two before airlock action. After 24 hours it's down to 1.035 and pH 3.27 - it seems to have soured a lot faster than other people have got, but I did have 20% torrefied maize in the mash (not sure if that increases the amount of simple sugars) and 6% dextrose added.

Tastes pretty good so far, quite a bit more sour than I expected at this point. I started up some Yeast Bay Saison/Brett blend which is a saison yeast and 2x Brett strains, I'll pitch that in once it gets down to about 1.020 - probably tomorrow or Saturday at this rate.

recipe:

Recipe: Phillanders Red
Brewer: Ben S
Asst Brewer:
Style: Flanders Red Ale
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 26.37 L
Post Boil Volume: 24.48 L
Batch Size (fermenter): 23.50 L
Bottling Volume: 22.50 L
Estimated OG: 1.048 SG
Estimated Color: 25.1 EBC
Estimated IBU: 9.9 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 70.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU Volume
4.00 g Calcium Chloride (Mash) Water Agent 1 - -
4.00 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash) Water Agent 2 - -
2.00 ml Phosphoric Acid 85% (Mash) Water Agent 3 - -
2.00 g Brewtan B (Mash) Fining 4 - -
1.75 kg Gladfield Vienna Malt (6.8 EBC) Grain 5 35.2 % 1.14 L
1.00 kg Gladfield Munich Malt (15.5 EBC) Grain 6 20.1 % 0.65 L
0.80 kg Flaked Torrefied Maize (Crisp) (0.5 EBC) Grain 7 16.1 % 0.52 L
0.42 kg Carahell (Weyermann) (25.6 EBC) Grain 8 8.5 % 0.27 L
0.40 kg Cara Malt (Crisp) (30.0 EBC) Grain 9 8.0 % 0.26 L
0.15 kg BEST Special X (BESTMALZ) (350.0 EBC) Grain 10 3.0 % 0.10 L
0.15 kg Crystal Rye Malt (Thomas Fawcett) (157.6 EBC) Grain 11 3.0 % 0.10 L
0.30 kg Corn Sugar (Dextrose) [Boil] (0.0 EBC) Sugar 12 6.0 % 0.19 L
20.00 g East Kent Goldings (EKG) [5.00 %] - Boil 60.0 mi Hop 13 9.9 IBUs -
2.00 g Brewtan B (Boil) Fining 14 - -
1.0 pkg Philly Sour (Lallemand #) Yeast 15 - -
0.5 pkg Saison/Brettanomyces Blend (The Yeast Bay #WLP46 Yeast 16 - -

 

[stealthfixr]

So i have my test batch in the fermenter now. I pitched rehydrated Philly sour and it took off pretty well, only an hour or two before airlock action. After 24 hours it's down to 1.035 and pH 3.27 - it seems to have soured a lot faster than other people have got, but I did have 20% torrefied maize in the mash (not sure if that increases the amount of simple sugars) and 6% dextrose added.

Tastes pretty good so far, quite a bit more sour than I expected at this point. I started up some Yeast Bay Saison/Brett blend which is a saison yeast and 2x Brett strains, I'll pitch that in once it gets down to about 1.020 - probably tomorrow or Saturday at this rate.

 

[thehaze]

I am about to use Philly Sour - and I am a fan of Flanders Red.

One of the trial batches I will be brewing in a month or two, will be a blended beer: A really malty red ale blended with spontaneously fermented cider ( for the vinegary notes ) and maybe a small % of a sour fermented with Philly Sour. Hoping to achieve some kind of complexity.

 

[sykesey]

@thehaze - sounds good.

Mine went into a mini keg and bottles yesterday, amazingly complex for a 2-week old beer i reckon! I ended up pitching S-33 into it as a cheap neutral yeast once it hit about 1.030 on day 2 or 3 - the next day after that I pitched TYB Saison/Brett Blend from a 500mL starter of first runnings. Oaked with some Hungarian oak dominoes i soaked in beer for a week to strip out some of the pungent oak flavour those give. Then added amyloglucosidase and let it bottom out the FG so i don't get bottle bombs.

Force carbed a 4L mini keg and bottled the rest, will be interesting to see how the brett develops over time in the bottles but I'm enjoying the force carbed version. pH is right on (at one point it was 2.98 according to my ph meter! but ended up just over 3), certainly doesn't taste too dry. Tart flavour but not over the top, actually a fair amount of sweetness from the alcohol and glycerin as it ended up at about 6.5% ish. Will take a photo in the glass once the keg clears up a bit, it's a nice amber / copper colour.

Not a massive amount of brett flavour, but just enough clove/spice and funk from the rye malt, saison yeast and Philly. Just need a couple of commercial flanders now to compare it to again, been a few months since i had a rodenbach

 

[Kabezullo]

wow, just what i am looking for. i did four batches of philly sour and i agree that is very quickly but not too complex.
i will do a try with a red flanders grist (adapted to the malts that i found in argentina), fermented with philly sour, and then aged with some brett or bottle dreg and oak chips.
i recomend to do a homemade blueberry vinegar that is so easy .... or just another vinegar from the fruit you have on hand.

 

[Drummone]

@thehaze - sounds good.

Mine went into a mini keg and bottles yesterday, amazingly complex for a 2-week old beer i reckon! I ended up pitching S-33 into it as a cheap neutral yeast once it hit about 1.030 on day 2 or 3 - the next day after that I pitched TYB Saison/Brett Blend from a 500mL starter of first runnings. Oaked with some Hungarian oak dominoes i soaked in beer for a week to strip out some of the pungent oak flavour those give. Then added amyloglucosidase and let it bottom out the FG so i don't get bottle bombs.

Force carbed a 4L mini keg and bottled the rest, will be interesting to see how the brett develops over time in the bottles but I'm enjoying the force carbed version. pH is right on (at one point it was 2.98 according to my ph meter! but ended up just over 3), certainly doesn't taste too dry. Tart flavour but not over the top, actually a fair amount of sweetness from the alcohol and glycerin as it ended up at about 6.5% ish. Will take a photo in the glass once the keg clears up a bit, it's a nice amber / copper colour.

Not a massive amount of brett flavour, but just enough clove/spice and funk from the rye malt, saison yeast and Philly. Just need a couple of commercial flanders now to compare it to again, been a few months since i had a rodenbach

this sounds exactly what I'm planning to do - did you manage to taste this after a period of time - what were your thoughts? any changes you would make? cheers, Sam

 

[sykesey]

this sounds exactly what I'm planning to do - did you manage to taste this after a period of time - what were your thoughts? any changes you would make? cheers, Sam

Turned out well, I just wish I had made more. It definitely picked up more brett character with some time in the bottle