Red Swingline IPA Clone

[Kdubbs]

Hello HomeBrewTalk Team,

I am looking to clone Trinity Red Swingline IPA. It is a 4.1% ABV, supposed 100 IBU, IPA fermented with Brettanomyces and Lactobacilius, aged in French Chardonnay barrels and dry hopped.

Obviously this beer is more process than ingredients but I need some help nailing down and achieving the sourness. This is what I have so far:

Since this beer just has lactocailius I think a 100% sour mash is what is needed. In theory since the sourness is added before the boil and the lactocailius is knocked in the boil kettle the hop addition will not impact the growth of the lacto, but the flavor implications of 100 IBUS of bitterness will over power a lot of sourness. Is this a correct assumption?

Can anybody chime in with a guide of how much sourness I might be looking for in the mash (3-4days?) before the addition of several more flavor and aging components?

Further it seems with most Berliner sour mash techniques the boil is in the range of 15 minutes. If I boil longer will I loose sourness, should I try and pack all the hop additions in 20 minutes?

Now for the recipe:

Recipe Type: All Grain
Yeast: Vermont Ale GY054/Brett Brux Trios WLP 644 blend
Yeast Starter: YES
Batch Size (Gallons): 5.5
Original Gravity: 1.050
Final Gravity: 1.012
IBU: 103
Boiling Time (Minutes): 20
Color: 6.25
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 7
Secondary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 44

The Recipe:
8# American 2 Row - 80%
1# Carmel/Crystal 10L - 10%
1# Carmel/Crystal 20L - 10%

3 oz Warrior (16% AA) - 20 min
2 oz Citra - Flameout
1 oz Cascade - Flameout
1 oz Amarillo - Flameout

.5 oz Coriander Seed - Flameout
.5 oz Tangerine Zest - Flameout

2 oz Cascade Dry Hop - 3 Days - (Secondary before wood)

1 French Oak Spiral Soaked in Chardonnay 30 days

2 oz Citra Dry Hop - 3 Days - (Secondary after oak)
1 oz Cascade Dry Hop - 3 Days - (Secondary after oak)
1 oz Amarillo Dry Hop - 3 Days - (Secondary after oak)

Thanks for reading team!

 

[microbusbrewery]

i know they claim 100 IBU's on this beer but I don't know that I believe them. I've only had it once and that was at The Rackhouse All Colorado Rare Beer Tasting and it was awesome, but I didn't pick-up anything even close to 100 IBU's. It definitely had tons of hop flavor and aroma, but the bitterness was really subdued at least in the samples that I had. Excellent beer though and I've been thinking about trying to do something similar so I'm really interested to hear how yours turns out.

 

[Kdubbs]

Yes I didn't pick up much hop bitterness either when I had the beer. But I did get a contrast to sourness which I suspect is in part from the bitterness.

The 100 IBUs isn't really that important, for me I was just curious about the how to achieve something in this range with the bugs. I talked to the barrel and bug man from Epic last night and he seemed to think the process was solid. So I will give it a go as planned.

Hopefully I can get the sour mash going in the next day or so. Should be a fun one.

 

[Mpez]

I don't think you can boil sourness away.

A true Berliner that is only boiled for 15 minutes is not sour mashed! It is soured during a long fermentation that includes lacto. If you sour mash, you should absolutely do a normal boil to make sure you kill anything that was hanging out in your sour mash.

Also red swingline contains both lacto and brett. They also make a version that is called Swing Se Pilser that is the same beer as Red Swingline but minus the brett.

You should really take a listen to the Brewing network interview with Chad Yakobson from a few years back if you have not already. There is a pretty good discussion on sour mashing. I have taken much of that advice and do a hybrid version of a sour mash, minus the mash. Call it a sour rest if you will. Basically you mash and sparge just like normal. Then you sour your wort before boiling.

Key points: Lower your wort Ph with a little lactic acid to start out, this will make it difficult for anything to take up residence besides the lacto. Next you want to do something to purge as much O2 as possible. If you just use your kettle I think some people have had success laying plastic wrap on top of the wort. Use a pure lacto culture, don't just throw some grain in it. You have no idea whats on it.
Lastly you need some way to keep the temps ~100 -110 for the sour rest.

If this method is followed, you have a high chance of success without creating a disgusting/foul mess.

 

[microbusbrewery]

Any updates on this? I picked up a bottle on a recent trip to Grand Junction, CO.

 

[agrazela]

What, no NZ hops? Sorry, sounds like that beer only scores a 97 out of 100 points on the trendiness scale. :beard:

(Note: the bearded smiley adds a point, just doin' what I can!)

 

[microbusbrewery]

i know they claim 100 IBU's on this beer but I don't know that I believe them. I've only had it once and that was at The Rackhouse All Colorado Rare Beer Tasting and it was awesome, but I didn't pick-up anything even close to 100 IBU's.

I stand corrected on this. I got an email from Jason Yestor at Trinity, and he assured me this beer does in fact start out with 100IBUs.

 

[Kdubbs]

Man that is awesome that it is 100 IBUs! Great that you got a reply from Jason Yestor. Did he have any other info about the beer?

I finally got around to getting this beer brewed. I went with a sour mash rest for about 10 days in my garage, so not the ideal temperature but I got a good amount of sourness, possibly a bit too much. Then I boiled the beer with 2 oz of Warrior for an hour, standard flameout additions, and ferment with a brett trios/Conan blend.

 

[microbusbrewery]

Man that is awesome that it is 100 IBUs! Great that you got a reply from Jason Yestor. Did he have any other info about the beer?



I finally got around to getting this beer brewed. I went with a sour mash rest for about 10 days in my garage, so not the ideal temperature but I got a good amount of sourness, possibly a bit too much. Then I boiled the beer with 2 oz of Warrior for an hour, standard flameout additions, and ferment with a brett trios/Conan blend.

So he sent me the recipe and some process info for Super Juice Solution. He said it was about the same recipe as Swingline, but doesn't involve aging in Chardonnay barrels.

I've been so busy that I haven't had a chance to brew it yet. When I do, I'll post it on my blog (he said it was fine to do so) and I'll add a link in this thread.

I don't have the recipe in front of me but it involves wort souring. Oh and chit malt. Jason said chit malt was key. I had a hard time sourcing it and I asked him if I could sub any undermodified malt and he said no, use chit. Basically you mash, collect your wort, then pitch lacto and sour down to a pH of around 3.4. Then boil adding hops according to the schedule. Chill then pitch brett brux and ferment. Age for three months before dry hopping with what seemed like a massive amount of hops.

 

[microbusbrewery]

FYI, here's a link to my blog with the recipe as I made it for Super Juice Solution, http://www.microbusbrewery.org/2014/09/super-juice-solution-trinity-brewing.html?m=1

It's aging so I don't know that I can call it cloned yet. Good brewing.

 

[Kdubbs]

Thanks for posting the recipe. That is basically a very similar process to how I brewed my sour IPA.