Recurrent contamination, can't get rid of it :(

[mario_silent]

Hi everyone!

I'm coming here because I've tried cleaning the hell out of everything but I'm still getting contaminations.

The most frustrating thing is that I'm getting them across my 3 buckets (Fermentors) after primary. I get this weird bitterness every time and it hides the malty flavor of the beer, almost like it was taken over by this flavor. I've done an american brown, 2 orange ales, a pale ale and they almost taste the same! can't be.

Thing is, we have 3 fermentor buckets with spigots. After a couple of brews and the first contamination, we realized we were not cleaning the spigots as well as we could (There were some residuals there) so we de-coupled them, cleaned them, boiled them, sanitized with Iodophor. Had special care with bucket lids too and made another batch. Surprise, we find the attached picture. The same off flavor and smell, not brown ale-ish at all and the buckets even after cleaning them, hold that weird smell similar to the contamination.

So here we are, today we made another batch with a brand new bucket and switched to star san. It's worth mentioning that the iodophor bottle cracked and we put it inside a bag but we are not sure how useful it is after being in contact with the oxygen around.

What do you suggest? Dump all the buckets and get new ones or maybe we can save them somehow? We pretty much can't take another straight contamination, there have been too many already and our motivation is very low right now I feel scared to open the next bucket now.

Also worth noting, after boil we use an immersion chiller, sanitized sometimes and others boiled for 15 minutes with the wort. After cooling down (15 - 20 mins) we splash straight into the sanitized fermentor, pitch the yeast and put the lid on with the airlock so there are not many factors there.

Help! please

 

[ong]

That looks like a possible lacto infection, but could also just be yeast rafts. I'd be surprised if infections were making your beer taste bitter, though. The usual source of bitterness is, surprise, hops! Maybe you're using more than your taste buds like?

Can you provide some details: recipes, fermentation temperature, and how you're fermenting (just using a single vessel the whole time, transferring to secondary, etc.). What temperature are you pitching yeast at?

I would recommend NOT using a fermentation vessel with a spigot, as it's going to be very hard to sanitize the outside of the spigot before transferring, and spigots can lead to oxidized beer. Instead, use a simple bucket or carboy, and siphon to your sanitized bottling bucket.

 

[MindenMan]

Do you stack your buckets inside each other w/o a paper or plastic bag on the bucket sliding in? You may have scratches from dust, etc. on the inside of the "outer" bucket. I mention this as I believe I have a scratched bucket or two that caused my last batch to not taste "right". Not infected or anything obvious, but just not the way I expected it to taste.

 

[mario_silent]

That looks like a possible lacto infection, but could also just be yeast rafts. I'd be surprised if infections were making your beer taste bitter, though. The usual source of bitterness is, surprise, hops! Maybe you're using more than your taste buds like?

Can you provide some details: recipes, fermentation temperature, and how you're fermenting (just using a single vessel the whole time, transferring to secondary, etc.). What temperature are you pitching yeast at?

I would recommend NOT using a fermentation vessel with a spigot, as it's going to be very hard to sanitize the outside of the spigot before transferring, and spigots can lead to oxidized beer. Instead, use a simple bucket or carboy, and siphon to your sanitized bottling bucket.

Alright! good questions. The first good batched we made had nothing floating around like that. All the recipes have been below 30 IBUS, so it's not hop bitterness for sure. The american brown was like 20 IBUS only, yet had some weird off flavor there and many people have tried it and think it's too bitter.

I'm pitching at around 76 and then keeping up at 66 approx. for 3 weeks, I'm not going beyond 70. Safale US 04 and 05, all primary fermentation on the same bucket, no peeking, no nothing until bottling day which is when we discover the off flavors.

I have a swamp cooler with ice to keep the bucket cool and maybe a problem is that the spigot is always submerged although we've been doing that all along and we made a scottish ale that has a veeeery clean taste, compared to these last batches so something must be lurking somewhere 'case that's not the flavor we're used to.

Thanks!

 

[mario_silent]

Do you stack your buckets inside each other w/o a paper or plastic bag on the bucket sliding in? You may have scratches from dust, etc. on the inside of the "outer" bucket. I mention this as I believe I have a scratched bucket or two that caused my last batch to not taste "right". Not infected or anything obvious, but just not the way I expected it to taste.

Hmmm probably but not likely, my buckets are always in rotation so I only have one free bottling bucket and the others get used after bottling the beer with a brand new batch. I wish I could explain the off flavor better, but i'm not quite savvy with those yet. I just know something's wrong because 4 different recipes tasting the same is not possible

 

[flars]

Do you have the off taste in a SG sample before racking to the bottling bucket? Does the off taste only show up in the bottles?

Before to many other questions, how long are you bottle conditioning and at what temperature?

 

[bd2xu]

Flars good questions. If the spigot is submerged in water then you have to assume it is contaminated. When you run the beer through the spigot it will pick up that contamination. You are saying you taste bitterness in the primary before it goes through the spigot though? If so maybe that is just because the beer is very young? How long after your wort goes into the bucket are tasting it?

 

[mario_silent]

Do you have the off taste in a SG sample before racking to the bottling bucket? Does the off taste only show up in the bottles?

Before to many other questions, how long are you bottle conditioning and at what temperature?

The off taste comes already by sampling before bottling and then after conditioning for 2 - 3 weeks in the bottle the taste is pretty much the same if not even worse. If I open a bottle and let it get warmer as I drink it, the taste is even more pronounced, a weird sourness I think it is and it's been on the 4 last batches and counting.

The first time I got this taste I thought it was weird but normal. I tasted it from the primary before racking to the bottling bucket and then after conditioning the taste had developed even more.

 

[mario_silent]

Flars good questions. If the spigot is submerged in water then you have to assume it is contaminated. When you run the beer through the spigot it will pick up that contamination. You are saying you taste bitterness in the primary before it goes through the spigot though? If so maybe that is just because the beer is very young? How long after your wort goes into the bucket are tasting it?

Yeah the flavor is already there even before the beer goes through the spigot and I've tasted young beers. I know when it's young and needs more time, the flavors change a lot but in this particular series of batches, the flavor and smell come soft at first, and then develop in the bottle (conditioned for 2 - 3 weeks).

I leave it in primary for 3 weeks. I have made about 6 good batches and then I started getting this...

 

[bd2xu]

I wonder if somehow some contamination is making its way through the closed spigot in the water bath. You could test that by doing a batch not in the water bath, maybe do one where the yeast can handle warmer temperatures like a Saison. You would of course need to sanitize the heck out of the spigot first as always.

Another thought, you could be getting contamination as your wort is going into primary. How do you transfer to primary? I have noticed my auto siphon will build up some gunk in the bottom overtime and I like to replace those fairly often. Or maybe there is some contamination in your tubing if you are siphoning.

 

[mario_silent]

I wonder if somehow some contamination is making its way through the closed spigot in the water bath. You could test that by doing a batch not in the water bath, maybe do one where the yeast can handle warmer temperatures like a Saison. You would of course need to sanitize the heck out of the spigot first as always.

Another thought, you could be getting contamination as your wort is going into primary. How do you transfer to primary? I have noticed my auto siphon will build up some gunk in the bottom overtime and I like to replace those fairly often. Or maybe there is some contamination in your tubing if you are siphoning.

Good thought, I'm guessing it's either the water getting inside the spigot somehow or the bucket having something hidden somewhere because I don't use a siphon, I just lift the kettle and splash to the bucket so no problem there.

Weird thing is when I smell the buckets even after cleaning the hell out of them I can smell that weird stuff that I get in the beer. How can I kill anything that's there but I can't see?

 

[TX_Brewing]

Agree on the tubing, many times it is an overlooked source of infections.

 

[Ike]

Not sure about bitter, but I lost a batch to chloramines not too long ago. I use bottled water and accidentally grabbed bottles that were labeled (in INCREDIBLY fine print) that it was bottled from a municipal water source. Bastages!

The flavor I got wasn't what I would call "bitter" but instead "band-aid" or "rubber shoe." So how's your water?

I'm just trying to think of things that would be the same across fermenters.

Ike

 

[d3track]

Are you using top-up water

 

[mario_silent]

Not sure about bitter, but I lost a batch to chloramines not too long ago. I use bottled water and accidentally grabbed bottles that were labeled (in INCREDIBLY fine print) that it was bottled from a municipal water source. Bastages!

The flavor I got wasn't what I would call "bitter" but instead "band-aid" or "rubber shoe." So how's your water?

I'm just trying to think of things that would be the same across fermenters.

Ike

Yeah, good thought with the water. I use 5 gallons purified bottled water. The thing is that I've been using the same water all this time and I got good results with my first brews so it's a bit unlikely unless of course the water has changed somehow :/

What kind of analysis can I make to discard the water??

 

[Ike]

What kind of analysis can I make to discard the water??

Google is your friend! Most water bottlers will publish results of their waters. Example: I am, thanks to past experience, very chloramine paranoid now. We moved and I started shopping at a supermarket that had different bottled waters. I was able to google " (name of water, whatever it was) water analysis" or something similar right on my phone and ended up with a .pdf that confirmed no chloramines present, right from the water aisle.

It's good to know about the water you're starting with. BUT, as you said, if it's worked well in the past, then I'd bet the water isn't the issue. So, check that one off the list and move on!

Ike

 

[The_Bishop]

How about you give us a quick rundown on your brewing process? Might not be an infection, might be something in your process.

 

[mozart4898]

You mention that you're using purified bottled water for brewing, but are you rinsing your buckets immediately prior to transferring beer to them? Reason I ask is that some people believe the chlorine/chloramine in tap water can be strong enough to even affect the flavor of the beer if it's just used as rinse water. You mention that the buckets smell off when they're empty and "clean," perhaps your municipal water source is having issues and it could be traced to the water you're using for cleaning. Municipal water sources aren't 100% consistent especially with odd weather conditions - they'll treat water differently to take care of problems on their end, but it could certainly cause problems on our (the homebrewer's) end. I know the past couple batches I'm struggling with crazy low efficiency that I can't explain and I've about determined that it's just because we've had so stinking much rain here this summer that my water is off. I was going to pick up RO water for this batch I'm brewing right now, but I was too lazy.

 

[mario_silent]

How about you give us a quick rundown on your brewing process? Might not be an infection, might be something in your process.

Oook. Let's start.
One day before brewday, I weigh and mill the malt and store it in a bag (I brew in a bag). I wash all the equipment with tap water and a soft sponge. This includes the buckets, spigots, airlocks, hoses, mash tun, brew kettle, everything I use next day.
Morning, if I have a brew for bottling, I boil water with table sugar for priming and meanwhile I start sanitizing (previosly with iodophor, now star san) the bucket, bottles, caps and all the equipment that will come in contact with the brew.
I heat my mash water, add the grain bag, mash, pour to the kettle, add hops accordingly (My sanitized bucket has all the equipment submerged all this time) and wait. I add my clean immersion chiller to the boil for the last 15 minutes and when it's time, I plug it to a pump with cold water for chilling.
Takes about 15-20 mins after which I get te sanitized bucket and stuff, pour straight from the kettle to the bucket splashing for oxygen and when it's done, I place the lid on, seal, airlock with sanitized water and then I submerge the bucket in my swamp cooler which I keep for 3 weeks regularly.
I go to another room to wash aaaall the equipment, buckets, spigots, kettle, etc.
Then on bottling day, I rack to a sanitized bucket, clean the spigot that was submerged in the swamp cooler, spray some sanitizer in as much as posible, prime and bottle through a hose and a bottle filler but the off flavors are already there, from opening the primary after the three weeks.

Whew... that's pretty much it.

 

[mario_silent]

You mention that you're using purified bottled water for brewing, but are you rinsing your buckets immediately prior to transferring beer to them? Reason I ask is that some people believe the chlorine/chloramine in tap water can be strong enough to even affect the flavor of the beer if it's just used as rinse water. You mention that the buckets smell off when they're empty and "clean," perhaps your municipal water source is having issues and it could be traced to the water you're using for cleaning. Municipal water sources aren't 100% consistent especially with odd weather conditions - they'll treat water differently to take care of problems on their end, but it could certainly cause problems on our (the homebrewer's) end. I know the past couple batches I'm struggling with crazy low efficiency that I can't explain and I've about determined that it's just because we've had so stinking much rain here this summer that my water is off. I was going to pick up RO water for this batch I'm brewing right now, but I was too lazy.

Well, maybe that could be a reason but I don't rinse after sanitizing my buckets or anything. Actually the off smell was only present after some batches on the buckets, not immediately after washing them. I washed a brand new one with tap water and it didn't have that off smell which to me, smells like something spoiled/leftover from another batch, I don't know.

It doesn't feel like just something wrong with the water. Actually the tap water is pretty clean and smells like nothing at all.

Bad to hear about your poor efficiency :/ that's another thing to worry about

 

[mozart4898]

I don't personally see anything in your process that looks that suspect - the one thing I'd maybe suggest is to ensure that your grain (crushed or not) is FAR separated from where you're transferring to the brew bucket and fermenting your beer. If you've got a garage, crush the grain out there or something, not even in the house. Crushed grain could contribute to a lacto infection if in fact it's an infection. But I doubt it's that.

Other thing I'd suggest is to unleash a bleach bomb on your equipment. Everything. Including the swamp cooler itself as well as all buckets, hoses, racking cane, spigots - everything. Afterwards, rinse everything real well (despite what I said earlier about rinsing with tap water and off flavors being possible - for the record I use nothing but bleach to sanitize and then give everything a good hot tap water rinse and have no problems).

 

[mozart4898]

Bad to hear about your poor efficiency :/ that's another thing to worry about

I guess it could be far worse. It's been 71-73% the last couple, today's was 68% but with 16 1/4 lbs of grain for a 5.5 gallon batch. I've never had to deal with an infection like you're trying to track down, THAT would be far more annoying considering especially it sounds like your process is pretty sound.

 

[Singletrack]

Okay, I didn't read all responses very carefully, and I have never had an infection (or my beer hasn't, anyway), but if I had your woes, I think I would try again with new equipment and extra diligent sanitary practices. It sucks to buy new equipment, but you have a lot of time and money invested in beers that are no good. Worst of all, your enthusiasm is waning, and we cannot let that happen. Go forth with new equipment and make great beer. Wish you the best of luck.

 

[mario_silent]

I don't personally see anything in your process that looks that suspect - the one thing I'd maybe suggest is to ensure that your grain (crushed or not) is FAR separated from where you're transferring to the brew bucket and fermenting your beer. If you've got a garage, crush the grain out there or something, not even in the house. Crushed grain could contribute to a lacto infection if in fact it's an infection. But I doubt it's that.

Other thing I'd suggest is to unleash a bleach bomb on your equipment. Everything. Including the swamp cooler itself as well as all buckets, hoses, racking cane, spigots - everything. Afterwards, rinse everything real well (despite what I said earlier about rinsing with tap water and off flavors being possible - for the record I use nothing but bleach to sanitize and then give everything a good hot tap water rinse and have no problems).

Well that raised some flags. I actually mill my grain in the kitchen, which is where I brew and then transfer wort to the bucket 'cause that's where I chill too. I store the grain pretty far from there though, but I crush it in the same room, one day before. I don't know if that helps but I'll try doing that farther next time.

Also I'll try with the bleach bomb! that's actually what I was thinking, but I'm afraid of trying that out and brewing again with the same equipment. I think I do have an infection, opposed to what everyone seems to think haha; Everyone says "It's mold, very few people actually get infections, it's so rare". Well I think I have one because that taste can't be normal. I drink local and foreign handcraft beer, IPAS, Porters, Stouts, Pale Ales, Red Ales and I've never tasted anything off like what I'm getting from my brews and I'm even more convinced because the first brews never showed this; I drank one bottle from my fourth batch and it was awesome, tasty and balanced, unlike these last batches...

Thanks for the tips! appreciate your time and sorry for aaaall the long posts!

 

[mario_silent]

Okay, I didn't read all responses very carefully, and I have never has an infection (or my beer hasn't, anyway), but if I had your woes, I think I would try again with new equipment and extra diligent sanitary practices. It sucks to buy new equipment, but you have a lot of time and money invested in beers that are no good. Worst of all, your enthusiasm is waning, and we cannot let that happen. Go forth with new equipment and make great beer. Wish you the best of luck.

Exactly what I was thinking! that's why I bought a new bucket which was intended to expand my equipment but I used it today. If it comes ok, I think I might go with different equipment. It's narrowed down to the fermentors I believe, 'cause after boiling and chilling, there are no other agents.

Will probably be switching to glass carboys, the thing is where I live (Mexico city) most of them are gone, nobody makes them anymore. LHBSs, there are very few and they almost all sell buckets only. I saw one that carried glass carboys but man! 100 bucks for one carboy can really drain me right now, since I just bought a lot of malt, hops, star san and yeast for 2 months.

Thanks for the good wishes! If I get any news, I'll be posting them right here.
Wish you the best of luck too. Cheers!

 

[Ike]

Will probably be switching to glass carboys, the thing is where I live (Mexico city) most of them are gone, nobody makes them anymore. LHBSs, there are very few and they almost all sell buckets only. I saw one that carried glass carboys but man! 100 bucks for one carboy can really drain me right now, since I just bought a lot of malt, hops, star san and yeast for 2 months.

If you can find stainless steel pots easier than carboys, consider the following... much easier to clean and just as infection-resistant. I too ferment in carboys but every damn time I clean one I think about this thread:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=490055

 

[WaltG]

Your only option is to burn your house down and start over with the insurance money.

 

[mozart4898]

Well that raised some flags. I actually mill my grain in the kitchen, which is where I brew and then transfer wort to the bucket 'cause that's where I chill too. I store the grain pretty far from there though, but I crush it in the same room, one day before. I don't know if that helps but I'll try doing that farther next time.

Also I'll try with the bleach bomb! that's actually what I was thinking, but I'm afraid of trying that out and brewing again with the same equipment. I think I do have an infection, opposed to what everyone seems to think haha; Everyone says "It's mold, very few people actually get infections, it's so rare". Well I think I have one because that taste can't be normal. I drink local and foreign handcraft beer, IPAS, Porters, Stouts, Pale Ales, Red Ales and I've never tasted anything off like what I'm getting from my brews and I'm even more convinced because the first brews never showed this; I drank one bottle from my fourth batch and it was awesome, tasty and balanced, unlike these last batches...

Thanks for the tips! appreciate your time and sorry for aaaall the long posts!

No problem, we're all here to help! As far as the grain causing an infection, like I said I don't think that's super likely but if you're crushing the grain in the same room that you then transfer the wort to the bucket, there could be grain dust in the air still. Thing is, there's all sorts of stuff floating around in the air anyways even if it's not from the grain, but it'd at least be worth trying to eliminate that cause.

As far as the bleach bomb, don't be afraid of bleaching everything and then using it, as long as you give it a good rinse afterwards. It'll be fine to use (as in it won't hurt you). No guarantee it'll fix the problem, but bleach will be far cheaper than buying all new buckets, hoses, etc, so I'd sure give it a try first.

 

[madscientist451]

Oook. Let's start.
One day before brewday, I weigh and mill the malt and store it in a bag (I brew in a bag).


I place the lid on, seal, airlock with sanitized water and then I submerge the bucket in my swamp cooler which I keep for 3 weeks regularly.

Grain has naturally occurring lactobacillus on it. By milling in the same area you are brewing, you can be introducing lacto to your wort. The dust particles can linger in the air for a while.
Also, you didn't mention how you are handling your yeast. Many infection problems can be traced back to yeast procedures.
I'm skeptical that bleaching everything is going to help. You are already using star san. Bacteria has a hard time surviving star san.
I'd also investigate the "purified" water you are using. How is it "purified"?

 

[The_Glue]

You can try wine making stores or general agricultural stores, they have better selection of glass carboys than the 2-3 homebrewing shops in my country.
Btw I used to fight something similar. In my case the beer was perfect until it carbed in the bottle.
I would try to pasteurize some bottles of beer after priming and bottling and capping then after the pasteurization process i would repitch yeast into the bottles after they cooled down individually and recap the bottles. This way you could see where things go wrong.
I think when I pasteurized the bottles I put them in a pot containing 80C hot water and kept them there for 30 mins.

btw I have a theory which might sound retarded but I think in the beginning of fermentation yeast can overpower some kind of infections but then after fermentation the infections can get a good boost from the priming sugar

 

[Bellybuster]

how old is your starsan? It does have a shelf life

 

[The_Bishop]

When you mash, are you doing a mash-out? If you add heat to your mash, you need to stir it as long as the heat's being applied. If you don't, the bottom of your mashing vessel will get too hot, which could contribute to tannin extraction. Also, how good is your thermometer?

Just tossing an idea or two out there. My understanding is that infections take a bit to produce off flavors.

 

[brewbama]

I'd also bleach bomb. But also you might want to consider adjusting for Ph. It made a huge difference in the taste of my beer.

 

[ncbrewer]

I actually mill my grain in the kitchen, which is where I brew and then transfer wort to the bucket 'cause that's where I chill too. QUOTE]

Bingo.

 

[Ike]

For my personal gain: I had no idea that lacto came from uncooked wheat. While I haven't been crushing at home yet, I haven't paid much attention to cleanup between the "adding the grain" stages and "post boil" stages. I will from now on, thanks to all!

 

[mario_silent]

Grain has naturally occurring lactobacillus on it. By milling in the same area you are brewing, you can be introducing lacto to your wort. The dust particles can linger in the air for a while.
Also, you didn't mention how you are handling your yeast. Many infection problems can be traced back to yeast procedures.
I'm skeptical that bleaching everything is going to help. You are already using star san. Bacteria has a hard time surviving star san.
I'd also investigate the "purified" water you are using. How is it "purified"?

Ok, next step I'm milling somewhere else to prevent anything from getting in.
Yeast is a simple dry package so not much handling there, just cut the pack open and pitch them straight to the bucket.
I just switched to star san, being my first use just yesterday. I had been going with iodophor which was poorly sealed (don't know if that also helped not to kill anything).
I'll try the bleach just in case, maybe switching spigots and see what happens, but I'm making a smaller batch this time.

The water... well I wouldn't know how it's purified. In Mexico, there are two big brands of water suppliers. The one I'm getting it from is run by Coca-cola , so I'm guessing it's good quality. Sealed, 5 gallong plastic containers.

 

[mario_silent]

No problem, we're all here to help! As far as the grain causing an infection, like I said I don't think that's super likely but if you're crushing the grain in the same room that you then transfer the wort to the bucket, there could be grain dust in the air still. Thing is, there's all sorts of stuff floating around in the air anyways even if it's not from the grain, but it'd at least be worth trying to eliminate that cause.

As far as the bleach bomb, don't be afraid of bleaching everything and then using it, as long as you give it a good rinse afterwards. It'll be fine to use (as in it won't hurt you). No guarantee it'll fix the problem, but bleach will be far cheaper than buying all new buckets, hoses, etc, so I'd sure give it a try first.

Will be switching places when I mill now to discard one more reason. I just bought some bleach, I'll try with it and just brew a small batch. I don't wanna dump more precious beer!

Any suggestions with the bleach bomb? leave everything submerged for a certain time and then rinse the hell out of it?

 

[mario_silent]

how old is your starsan? It does have a shelf life

Actually the star san I'm using from yesterday's batch on is brand new. The iodophor I had was like 2 months old.

 

[mario_silent]

I'd also bleach bomb. But also you might want to consider adjusting for Ph. It made a huge difference in the taste of my beer.

Good point too. I was going this route on my next step to improving my procedure, I guess I'll consider this now.
What's your suggestion? ph straps or a digital device?

 

[mozart4898]

Will be switching places when I mill now to discard one more reason. I just bought some bleach, I'll try with it and just brew a small batch. I don't wanna dump more precious beer!

Any suggestions with the bleach bomb? leave everything submerged for a certain time and then rinse the hell out of it?

Exactly - dump a cup or so of bleach into a bucket (7 gallons or so) and fill the rest with water (doesn't need to be hot water, lukewarm is fine) and leave it sit for an hour or so. You should smell bleach pretty strong but if the water is "slippery" like straight bleach you've got more than you really need. Take everything apart as much as you can - take the spigots out of buckets, submerge everything you can fit in there, hoses, airlocks, lids (soak lids in a sink full of the bleach water after you've emptied it out of buckets to make it easier). When you're done with soaking, siphon the bleach water through your hoses/racking cane or whatever all you've got. It may sound crazy but try to think your way through every piece of equipment and how you can get every bit of everything in contact with that bleach water for a while.

FYI, it's usually said that you shouldn't ever bleach stainless steel because it'll pit it or what not. I regularly hit my kegs with a mild bleach solution (a couple ounces for 5 gallons of water) for a brief time and then dump it and rinse them well. Just don't leave stainless in contact with bleach (especially full strength) for a long time, and you should be fine.

When I rinse, I try to rinse with as hot of water as I can get from the tap. After rinsing for a couple minutes it's usually almost hot enough to burn me and yet I keep going as much as I can. When you're done rinsing you shouldn't smell any bleach residue any more - you should smell "clean" equipment.

(FYI this is honestly about how I sanitize every time I brew. Never had an infection. It may be overkill but to be honest, the last thing I want is for some bug to take hold in my couple hundred dollars of brewing equipment and end up needing to replace it all.)