Recirculating mash, how to heat?

[RPh_Guy]

I'm thinking about recirculating my mash (in a round cooler), with no sparge.
It seems to me that a RIMS in this situation is easier to setup and more efficient than a HERMS

It looks like the main downside to RIMS is that the heater can potentially scorch the wort. Is this much of a concern?

Anyone have recommendations for a decent RIMS tube? I'd be up for assembling my own if I don't need to weld. I'm pretty sure I have 120V outlets in my brewing area.

The Blichmann looks cool but I'd rather spend a little less if possible.
https://www.morebeer.com/products/blichmann-rims-rocket-120v.html

I'm open to any ideas.
Thanks guys

 

[Homergah]

I'm thinking about recirculating my mash (in a round cooler), with no sparge.
It seems to me that a RIMS in this situation is easier to setup and more efficient than a HERMS

It looks like the main downside to RIMS is that the heater can potentially scorch the wort. Is this much of a concern?

Anyone have recommendations for a decent RIMS tube? I'd be up for assembling my own if I don't need to weld. I'm pretty sure I have 120V outlets in my brewing area.

The Blichmann looks cool but I'd rather spend a little less if possible.
https://www.morebeer.com/products/blichmann-rims-rocket-120v.html

I'm open to any ideas.
Thanks guys

I've been considering the same thing. Hope you get some suggestions.

 

[day_trippr]

For simply holding a mash at temperature I'd think a low wattage RIMs tube would be the cost-effective option...

Cheers!

 

[AF1HomeBrew]

You could checkout something what BrewHardware has. You'd still need (if you don't already have it) a pump and a temperature controller.

 

[augiedoggy]

I'm thinking about recirculating my mash (in a round cooler), with no sparge.
It seems to me that a RIMS in this situation is easier to setup and more efficient than a HERMS

It looks like the main downside to RIMS is that the heater can potentially scorch the wort. Is this much of a concern?

Anyone have recommendations for a decent RIMS tube? I'd be up for assembling my own if I don't need to weld. I'm pretty sure I have 120V outlets in my brewing area.

The Blichmann looks cool but I'd rather spend a little less if possible.
https://www.morebeer.com/products/blichmann-rims-rocket-120v.html

I'm open to any ideas.
Thanks guys

a properly designed system can eliminate any chance of denatured enzymes or scorched wort. very low watt density is a plus and in my opinion longer rims tubes with longer elements for longer more even gentle heating on each pass works well for me. I use an 1800w 36" long cartridge heater for home system and two 2200w elements totaling 56" of element length for my 3bbl setup which at mashout can raise temps as much as 7 degrees in one pass at 5gpm.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I don't have the mechanical / plumbing / electrical experience like a lot of you guys so my head starts spinning whenever I start trying to research what I need build a RIMS.

I have a pump. It seems like a just need a tube with hose barbs on both sides and a heating element inside the tube somehow. I just get lost when delving into the specific components, while trying to minimize the cost.

I'm thinking I want to use a programmable inkbird with the temp probe inside the mash tun.

 

[mongoose33]

I just did a RIMS setup in the fall. I got my RIMS tube from BobbyM at BrewHardware. I included the INKbird control that he sells as well. He has the element as well. I bought mine on Amazon only because he didn't have them in stock at the time.

There's an advantage buying a package setup like this, as the pieces are designed to work together.

I agree, @RPh_Guy, that RIMS seems simpler. I went with it in part because I didn't have room for a third vessel for HERMS. But, if you think about it, that RIMS tube is, well, that third vessel.

This is what I have:

https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/tempcontrol_ipb16.htm

https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/rims12_cam.htm I use camlocks for my hoses, there are other options depending on what you have for connectors. I deleted the hotpod, used my own element from Amazon.

Here it is installed, though I don't have hoses set up to go from mash tun to pump to RIMS tube. Some mount it vertically. I may yet do that as I try to find ways to reduce hose length, though this works pretty well.

There's a little bit of a learning curve with it; I have the RIMS tube set up so the inlet is pointing down, the outlet pointing up--this so there are no air bubbles in the tube that might cause the element to heat w/o wort in contact with it. I always turn the pump on for a minute or two before engaging the heat--don't want that element going w/o wort in the tube.

The tube has a thermometer probe well in the left end, the element is on the right side. They could be reversed. It came with TC clamps with bolts welded on, so I could easily attach it to a piece of punched angle iron.

Would I do it again? Yes. It does what I want--allows me to control the mash temp, and run it up if necessary. I've learned to aim a little low on the mash temp initially and let the RIMS bring it up. Once had it too high, and one thing a heating element won't do is bring the temp down.

 

[shoengine]

I was contemplating a two-vessel setup as well, so that is really good info.

 

[RPh_Guy]

All right, let's say I wanted to buy this 12" tube:
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/rims12_npt.htm
(I want to use hose barbs for some reason)
... I need to pick some kind of low-watt-density 120V heating element and then decide whether the "hot pod" is necessary?

Could I reasonably step mash a 5 gal batch?
I should have minimal heat loss since it's in a cooler and it'll have a cap. I'll be minimizing hose length and possibly insulating the tube and hoses as well.


The Inkbird IPB-16 ...It isn't programmable, right?

Is this worse because it's not PID?
https://www.morebeer.com/products/inkbird-programmable-digital-temperature-controller-12-stage.html

Forgive me, I want to make sure I understand all this.

 

[augiedoggy]

All right, let's say I wanted to buy this 12" tube:
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/rims12_npt.htm
(I want to use hose barbs for some reason)
... I need to pick some kind of low-watt-density 120V heating element and then decide whether the "hot pod" is necessary?

Could I reasonably step mash a 5 gal batch?
I should have minimal heat loss since it's in a cooler and it'll have a cap. I'll be minimizing hose length and possibly insulating the tube and hoses as well.


The Inkbird IPB-16 ...It isn't programmable, right?

Is this worse because it's not PID?
https://www.morebeer.com/products/inkbird-programmable-digital-temperature-controller-12-stage.html

Forgive me, I want to make sure I understand all this.

the controller is not ideal because its meant for turning a fridge on and off every few minutes with a mechanical relay and doesnt have a triac or ssr for fast switching that you need to control temps correctly in a rims application. Ive heard of some using these but they are far from a well suited or long lasting choice for this kind of use. the inkbird controller mongoose mentions is an ssr controlled device and works well.

I step mash with 10 gallon batches and my 1800w element fine.. then again my 1800w element performs better than my old shorter 2000w element and I had started with a 10" long 800w (advertised as 1000w but often they fall short of advertised output which is why boil results sometimes vary for folks using 120v BK) anyway the 800w element held temps fine but stepping was too slow. even now I only get about 2.5 degrees rise at the rims per minute at 1.8gpm
flow rate is a big deal when using a rims but every setup varys. too fast you get channeling and stuck flow, too slow and you get localized boiling with too much element power.
I am not sure if I mentioned it but you can make a cheap rims out of stainless pipe.. its cheap on ebay. or even two tri clamp tees and a spool of whatever length you want or sight glass in the middle.

two of these
http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...0001&campid=5338413729&icep_item=253145784613
and one of these
http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...0001&campid=5338413729&icep_item=282424096050
and you have your custom length setup for about $50... rims tube setups start at around $80 from aliexpress and are a good option too.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1-5...17-4848-96d8-62a2c68618fb&transAbTest=ae803_3
If Bobby has them in stock he is of course a good option as well.

 

[NeoBrew]

I've got the 18" RIMS tube from BrewHardware. It has been great. I would highly recommend it. If you decide to go with a 12", make sure you can get any element you want to use to fit. The extra length will give you more options for heating elements and more contact time with the wort if you buy a longer element.

I don't find that step mashing is very practical with my setup. The ramp time can be slow. The issues is not just the size of your element. The biggest limiting factor on my setup seems to be that you can only pump so fast through the grain without getting a stuck mash. I can heat plain water pretty fast, but when I'm pumping through the grain bed I need to slow it down so much that it takes considerable time to get the full volume of the mash to change temp significantly.

You will definitely want to control temp based on a probe in the RIMS tube. I tried it in the mash tun for a while. The lag that happens as the mass/volume of the mash tun raises means that your RIMS tube will get quite warm before it shuts off again. You need your controller to be very fast switching so that as soon as the temp in the RIMS tube raises above setpoint, it shuts the element off.

Also put some kind of manifold to return wort to your mash. I use the lockline manifold that BrewHardware sells. Other than being awkward to clean, it works really well.

 

[augiedoggy]

I've got the 18" RIMS tube from BrewHardware. It has been great. I would highly recommend it. If you decide to go with a 12", make sure you can get any element you want to use to fit. The extra length will give you more options for heating elements and more contact time with the wort if you buy a longer element.

I don't find that step mashing is very practical with my setup. The ramp time can be slow. The issues is not just the size of your element. The biggest limiting factor on my setup seems to be that you can only pump so fast through the grain without getting a stuck mash. I can heat plain water pretty fast, but when I'm pumping through the grain bed I need to slow it down so much that it takes considerable time to get the full volume of the mash to change temp significantly.

You will definitely want to control temp based on a probe in the RIMS tube. I tried it in the mash tun for a while. The lag that happens as the mass/volume of the mash tun raises means that your RIMS tube will get quite warm before it shuts off again. You need your controller to be very fast switching so that as soon as the temp in the RIMS tube raises above setpoint, it shuts the element off.

Also put some kind of manifold to return wort to your mash. I use the lockline manifold that BrewHardware sells. Other than being awkward to clean, it works really well.

if your pumping wort through the rims at 2gpm a 12gallon mash should completely cycle through in 6 minutes... if the rims is long and has enough contacts time you can raise it so many degrees every pass... the conversion takes place in the wort and rims not just in the mash. this is the issue many have.
with my setup in about 8 mins I can raise my entire mash 3 degrees. but in reality by that point some of the mash is already higher than that since my rims keeps climbing 3 degees per minute.

many people use high wattage rims and actually heat the mash in the rims inefficiently by superheating a portion of it that comes in contact with the element in the spilt second its in the rims, meanwhile they denature the enzymes of that wort that was in contact with the element. when it mixes with the cooler wort that doesnt contact the element it averages out in temp at the probe.

this is why some prefer herms but with a low enough watt density element and the correct flow you can have the best of both worlds.

 

[Bobby_M]

Full package ready to go including the IPB16 controller. Who said it wasnt programmable?
http://www.brewhardware.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=RIMSpackageTC

 

[RPh_Guy]

Full package ready to go including the IPB16 controller. Who said it wasnt programmable?
http://www.brewhardware.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=RIMSpackageTC

Thanks, this looks great ...
Could I get possibly it with 1/2" NPT?

I'm not understanding why other connections are better. It saves having to tighten a hose clamp on a barb?

Can I set the IPB16 to automatically increase mash temperature after a certain time, for a couple steps?

@augiedoggy
Great info, thank you!
It sounds like you're advocating for having the probe in the tube, right?

@NeoBrew
Thanks, so far everyone recommends brewhardware!

I'll be conditioning my grain (which better maintains the husk integrity) so I hope I won't have flow rate problems, and I'm not afraid to use rice hulls either. I can generally drain my MLT pretty fast.

Where in the MLT did you place the probe when you tried it?

 

[augiedoggy]

Thanks, this looks great ...
Could I get possibly it with 1/2" NPT?

I'm not understanding why other connections are better. It saves having to tighten a hose clamp on a barb?

Can I set the IPB16 to automatically increase mash temperature after a certain time, for a couple steps?

@augiedoggy
Great info, thank you!
It sounds like you're advocating for having the probe in the tube, right?

@NeoBrew
Thanks, so far everyone recommends brewhardware!

I'll be conditioning my grain (which better maintains the husk integrity) so I hope I won't have flow rate problems, and I'm not afraid to use rice hulls either. I can generally drain my MLT pretty fast.

Where in the MLT did you place the probe when you tried it?

if you dont want triclamps which are nice for cleaning, then I strongly suggest 1" stainless pipe,

http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...0001&campid=5338413729&icep_item=332770194727

http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...0001&campid=5338413729&icep_item=201598838223

and I used these for reducers for the 1/2" barbed npt fittings.
http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...0001&campid=5338413729&icep_item=401698227605

I did use a large 1" stainless triclamp at one end so I could open up the rims and pull the element to clean it..
With the inkbird controller which go for around $100 with shipping your looking at like $200-$250 total cost with element depending on features...
I have barbed camlock fittings but theres not enough pressure to need any hose clamps on my setup...

Just an option to the nicer TC kit Bobby provides which is nice and convenient

also just in case you didnt see it already theres 2 different vendors with the same name but one is "brewhardware.com" (mentioned above) and the onther is "brew hardware.com" (thats the one I think you commented too in the other thread but it might have beed someone else)

 

[NeoBrew]

@NeoBrew

Where in the MLT did you place the probe when you tried it?

My temp probe in my tun is about 3" above the false bottom. It sticks into the mash about 2". I still have the probe there. I'm using a BrewPi controller, so I can have as many probes on the system as I like. I currently only use it to monitor the mash tun temp. It doesn't control anything.

I also condition my grain. I've taken to usually including rice hulls as well. I've had lots of issues as I transitioned to the RIMS system related to compacted grain beds. In the end my biggest mistake was to start off the re circulation at full bore and then back off of it. Even a few seconds at full blast seems to be enough to pack the grain. It is hard to fully recover from that even if you stir. My advice is that you bleed the air out of your pump before you turn it on, then start out with output valve fully closed or barely cracked open. Set it for a very low flow for a couple minutes, then increase flow to the level your grain bed will allow.

One regret I have was not going with tri-clamps. Mine are NPT threaded with cam lock quick connects. For the most part it works great, but the little bit of threaded connection that is exposed to the wort needs to be dissembled and cleaned from time to time. Since it is all hot side it's not much of a contamination concern. At the time I bought mine I didn't imagine where I would end up. If I could go back I would have committed to tri-clamp for all of my brewery.

 

[augiedoggy]

I run pbw through mine from time to time to clean the manifold and pumps as well. So Ive never had to disassemble ant of the threaded fittings but I see your point. For me the factors were that TC is expensive though and the ID wasnt as Ideal for even heat transfer with my cartridge heaters

 

[NeoBrew]

I run pbw through mine from time to time to clean the manifold and pumps as well. So Ive never had to disassemble ant of the threaded fittings but I see your point. For me the factors were that TC is expensive though and the ID wasnt as Ideal for even heat transfer with my cartridge heaters

I'd suggest you take them apart once. You might be surprised. I was also did PBW from time to time.

 

[augiedoggy]

I'd suggest you take them apart once. You might be surprised. I was also did PBW from time to time.

Oh I have.. reconfigured my plumbing and rims a few times over the years each time going to a longer element and rims tube. theres actually some picures of what my rims looks like inside after brewing.. the element doesnt even get a buildup at all. Wish the rims at my brewpub ran that clean but the tube is a lot larger and the element is not as thick, plus the watt density is higher on that one.. More work to keep clean.

 

[Blazinlow86]

I've got the 18" RIMS tube from BrewHardware. It has been great. I would highly recommend it. If you decide to go with a 12", make sure you can get any element you want to use to fit. The extra length will give you more options for heating elements and more contact time with the wort if you buy a longer element.

I don't find that step mashing is very practical with my setup. The ramp time can be slow. The issues is not just the size of your element. The biggest limiting factor on my setup seems to be that you can only pump so fast through the grain without getting a stuck mash. I can heat plain water pretty fast, but when I'm pumping through the grain bed I need to slow it down so much that it takes considerable time to get the full volume of the mash to change temp significantly.

You will definitely want to control temp based on a probe in the RIMS tube. I tried it in the mash tun for a while. The lag that happens as the mass/volume of the mash tun raises means that your RIMS tube will get quite warm before it shuts off again. You need your controller to be very fast switching so that as soon as the temp in the RIMS tube raises above setpoint, it shuts the element off.

Also put some kind of manifold to return wort to your mash. I use the lockline manifold that BrewHardware sells. Other than being awkward to clean, it works really well.

Keep in mind you only get a stuck mash if your milling tighter than your system allows . Mill abit looser and let your recirculating electric setup do it's thing at full speed with very quick heating times,no offsets, flow meters required. Set it and forget it. Repeatable results for everytime. cheers

 

[augiedoggy]

Keep in mind you only get a stuck mash if your milling tighter than your system allows . Mill abit looser and let your recirculating electric setup do it's thing at full speed with very quick heating times,no offsets, flow meters required. Set it and forget it. Repeatable results for everytime. cheers

I have a totally different opinion on this. I believe recirculating as fast as you can only promotes channeling (as well as the obvious stuck mash). I set my mill gap with a credit card. which is why my efficiency is as high as it is. starting the flow very slowly to set the grainbed and then increasing it slowly to a speed that works for the amount of false bottom surface area you have and the amount of wattage you have to prevent localized boiling in the rims is the goal. This is not really doable with a 5500w element at that power and the recirc speed we get with a 15" FB (lots of denaturing going on in the rims) unless the grain is very coursely ground and then you will get low efficiency from that inmost cases.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Anything wrong with channeling if I'm not sparging?

 

[Sadu]

Late to the discussion, but here's another very simple option if you wanted to look at the HERMS route.

Electric urn
https://www.grainfather.com/shop/accessories/sparge-water-heater.html

Plus immersion chiller, temp controller, pump, misc fittings

Pump your wort through the immersion chiller which sits in the sparge water heater while you mash. No risk of scorching the wort and no drilling or modding required. You may already have the immersion chiller, and the sparge water heater is very useful to have in a brewery also.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Pump your wort through the immersion chiller which sits in the sparge water heater while you mash.

Since I'm not sparging, HERMS seems really inefficient, right?

 

[Vale71]

If you don't sparge you can use the hot water for cleaning your equipment afterwards and will still get the advantage of no scorching.

Channeling is always bad in a recirculating system as it will affect heat distribution and extraction efficiency negatively.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I should mention I'm going to be using 3/8" tubing/fittings, so the maximum flow will be limited.

 

[schematix]

i have the blichmann RIMS and i think it sucks. it checks a lot of the boxes for specs you want, but its odd shape makes it very difficult to implement.

 

[Blazinlow86]

I have a totally different opinion on this. I believe recirculating as fast as you can only promotes channeling (as well as the obvious stuck mash). I set my mill gap with a credit card. which is why my efficiency is as high as it is. starting the flow very slowly to set the grainbed and then increasing it slowly to a speed that works for the amount of false bottom surface area you have and the amount of wattage you have to prevent localized boiling in the rims is the goal. This is not really doable with a 5500w element at that power and the recirc speed we get with a 15" FB (lots of denaturing going on in the rims) unless the grain is very coursely ground and then you will get low efficiency from that inmost cases.

Sounds like we're both saying the same thing. If you mill tight (credit card gap) you will get channeling and a stuck mash if you don't slow your pumps and adjust your speed. Were our opinions differ is you prefer to mill fine to get a few more points and I prefer to mill course to get better heating performance and no monitoring the mash. I have tried milling with a credit card gap however I didnt notice any significant change in my effiency and as you pointed out I could only pump very slowly otherwise I would compact the grainbed and cause a stuck mash. That then causes my mlt to lag behind my hlt (I'm using a Herms) temp wise. I've always been focused more on repeatability than efficiency but that's just me. Cheers

 

[Homergah]

Rice hulls are your friend.

 

[Blazinlow86]

Rice hulls are your friend.

Good point. I always add a handfulish of hulls when using wheat, oats, rice and all that. Cheers