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Bains999

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Years ago (30+) my daughter got me a ‘beer kit’ as a present. I brewed some initial beginner recipes and then brewed something called ‘Bituminous Stout’. It was a winner in a 1992 competition. No style guidelines, just a recipe I followed. The recipe has a variety of ingredients that are no longer available in rural America.

4 pounds Mountmellick Stout kit, hopped
3 pounds Cooper?s Stout kit, hopped
1 pound Laaglander dark DME
? pound Australian dark DME
1 pound crystal malt 40? Lovibound
.5 pound crystal malt 110? Lovibound
.5 pound Chocolate malt
.5 pound Roasted barley
.25 pound Black patent malt

My daughter asked me to brew it for her this year.

I would like to have an all grain equivalent for this recipe. I need advice as to what to substitute for ….
4 pounds Mountmellick Stout kit, hopped
3 pounds Cooper?s Stout kit, hopped
1 pound Laaglander dark DME
.5 pound Australian dark DME

As far as I can determine it would be characterized as an Imperial Stout but I am open to suggestions regarding style guidelines.

Lots of very skilled folks here so I would appreciate any help you can provide.
 
"Bituminous Stout": Homebrew Favorites (Storey Publishing, 1994), p 118. Powell's Books (Portland OR) appears to have used copies available.

It's black...it's heavy... it's Imperial! [..] Bituminous was selected Best Stout at the first Annual Minnesota Homebrew Club Competition in 1992. It also captured the Master of Malt award for Best of Show at that event.
Click to expand...

Back in the early 1990s, the brewers were brewing with the Prairie Homebrewing Companions club out of Fargo ND. That club is still active, running the "Hoppy Halloween Challenge" each fall for the past 24 years.

Bains999 said:
? pound Australian dark DME
Click to expand...
0.5 lb

There are some additional ingredients in the recipe that you didn't list. The recipe uses "deionized" water with water adjustments, a hop steep at the end of the boil, and a rather unique yeast selection.

Bains999 said:
4 pounds Mountmellick Stout kit, hopped
3 pounds Cooper?s Stout kit, hopped
Click to expand...
One option would be to use a basic (5%-ish) stout recipe for the grain bill and the bittering hops.

1 pound Laaglander dark DME
.5 pound Australian dark DME
Click to expand...
One option would be to use the grain bill for Briess Traditional Dark DME (or LME).

Bains999 said:
As far as I can determine it would be characterized as an Imperial Stout but I am open to suggestions regarding style guidelines.
Click to expand...
OG/FG almost fit the guidelines for BJCP 2021 20C. Apparent attenuation is very low, partially due to yeast selection, and (perhaps) due to the lower fermentability of the extract in the early 1990s.

@Bains999 : the next step appears to be yours. If you put together a recipe, I can review it. If you need some additional help converting the recipe, I can offer some opinions. If Powell's doesn't have the book, I can help fill in some of the blanks. Let me know.

editz fore typohz.
 
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It may be that the Mountmellick Stout kit was an Irish Stout Kit.

This "clip" from the article "The Best from Kits" is talking about their brown ale kit, but makes a reference to the Irish Stout Kit as well.

1647815435678.png
Zymurgy 1991 Vol 14-02 Summer | PDF | Homebrewing | Brewing, p 55.

A description from one of the online stores that still has a product listing for it.
1647815825212.png


And a blog entry Mountmellick Extract Stout | Brew It Right

It may be that this ingredient adds roasted barley (in addition to the steeping grain contribution).

Using HomeBrewTalk's search with the word Mountmellick returns a number of topics from the 2010s that may also be of interest.
 
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Laaglander dark DME: apparently very low fermentability.

The extract brewer needs to pay attention to the type of extract used. Some extracts are more fermentable than others. Two extracts that have lower fermentability resulting in fuller-bodied beers are Laaglander and John Bull of England. Two extracts with relatively high fermentability are Alexander’s light malt extract and Munton’s light malt extract. Ask your local homebrew supply shop about malt’s fermentability, and keep detailed notes on the brands with which you have experimented.
Click to expand...
"Add Body to Your Beer", BYO, June 1997
https://byo.com/article/add-body-to-your-beer/

Also: Sugars Used for Carbonating Beer
https://www.northernbrewer.com/blog...sugars-that-can-be-used-for-carbonating-beers

A HomeBrewTalk specific search on Laaglander should find additional information.
 
You are absolutely correct -- the entire recipe is not listed in my post. Lactose, brewers licorace, Burton water salts and other ingredients are missing. I only put in the the components that were fermentables I could not purchase. I would buy one of the books at Powell's but there are three and the ToC are not listed.

I believe I have the original recipe but if you have it as well I would appreciate a scanned copy or I can PM you with my recipe.

Your answer went beyond my knowledge and skill
"a basic (5%-ish) stout recipe" -- I do not understand what that means
"use the grain bill for Briess Traditional Dark DME" -- again I do not understand what or how

In my mind, if I can find adequate substitutes for the fermentables and some notion of the hops that are contained in the Cooper's Stout kit that would help. My attempt to get the information from Cooper's ran in to silence.

So your opinions on what substitutes would do for the fermentables would certainly help.
 
Recipe state OG 75 & FG 35; Wyeast #1084 (71% apparent attenuation). May want to mash it higher (156?) to create a less fermentable wort.

Over the next couple of replies, I'll suggest grain bills for the four extracts mentioned.
 
For the Dark DME, assume a grain bill that's 55% Munich, 30% Base Malt, 13% Crystal 60% & 3% black malt. At 42 PPG, a pound of DME is approximately:

Base Malt8 oz29%
Munich (light / 10L)14 oz54%
Crystal 60L4 oz13%
Black Malt1 oz4%


For those reading along, the plan is to convert the individual DMEs, combine them into a single grain bill, then review/adjust the grain bill. Please save your keystrokes for the combined and adjusted grain bill. Thank you.

eta: revised for 44 PPG and 75% efficiency; percentages are rounded and may not add to 100%.
 
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BrewnWKopperKat said:
Recipe state OG 75 & FG 35; Wyeast #1084 (71% apparent attenuation). May want to mash it higher (156?) to create a less fermentable wort.

Over the next couple of replies, I'll suggest grain bills for the four extracts mentioned.
Click to expand...

OG 1.075 and FG 1.035? Wow, that's got a shocking amount of unfermentables for the OG!

Might need at mash even higher, say 159-160, and/or add maltodextrin.
 
For the Stout LME, assume a grain bill that's 75% base malt, 10% Crystal 120L, 8% Roasted Barley, 3% Chocolate, and 3% black malt. At 36 PPG, a pound of LME is approximately:

Base Malt17 oz76%
Crystal 120L2.5 oz11%
Roasted Barley2 oz9%
Chocolate Malt.5 oz2%
Black Malt.5 oz2%

Next, I'll assemble the pieces (DME & LME worts, steeping grains) into a recipe that can be reviewed & revised.

eta: revised for 36 PPG and 75% efficiency; percentages are rounded and may not add to 100%.
 
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Thank you for your help so far. I would like to PM you but cannot determine how to do it.
Waiting for you next posts
 
Earlier today, I updated the DME & LME grain bills to use 75% efficiency (which is a common assumption for published recipes). I am assuming 44 PPG for DME; 36 PPG for LME.

In this post, I will double check the "grain bill" in the original recipe.

The DME/LME contributions are roughly 65 OG
1647967695025.png

The steeping grains contributions are either 11 OG (75% efficiency) or 5 OG (35% efficiency).
1647967804125.png

I don't see anything that suggests an error in the original recipe.

Up next, merging the various grain bills.
 
1647971059101.png

At 75% efficiency (and some undocumented assumptions about PPG for each of the character malts), the grain bill is roughly OG 74. Also note that lactose is missing.

Having "done the math" (and hopefully documented the major assumptions), the next step will be review & refine the grain bill.
 
Bains999 said:
I would like to PM you but cannot determine how to do it.
Click to expand...
To start a PM (it's called a Conversation in our forum software), hover over a member's avatar or name in the left side bar. A dialog (balloon) pops up; There are 4 options listed on the bottom, click on: Start Conversation.
 
BrewnWKopperKat said:
The steeping grains contributions are either 11 OG (75% efficiency) or 5 OG (35% efficiency).
Click to expand...
Thank you for this excellent showcase of converting an extract recipe to all grain! Even more so by providing the step by step calculations.

One thing escapes me.
Why are the steeping grain efficiencies dualistic? Isn't 75% steeping efficiency commonly used, the same as mash efficiency? Where's the 35% coming from and when should that number be used?
 
I'll offer a simple refinement: round ingredient amounts to a 1/4 lb increment.

1647981676683.png

Observations:
  • new grain bill is
    • OG: 74
    • FG : 18 - 22 with a yeast having 70-75% apparent attenuation
    • SRM suggests it's very, very black.
    • 35% crystal / roasted malts
  • The original recipe
    • used hopped LME; be sure to adjust the bittering hop additions to get the desired level of bitterness.
    • includes a small amount of lactose which is missing from the grain bill I created.
    • includes a larger than expected amount of brewing salts - in addition to what was in the DME/LME. If you can do a split fermentation, it may be interesting to ferment a smaller portion with most of those additional salts.
 
IslandLizard said:
Why are the steeping grain efficiencies dualistic? Isn't 75% steeping efficiency commonly used, the same as mash efficiency? Where's the 35% coming from and when should that number be used?
Click to expand...
I see 75% used frequently. For my DME+steep recipes, 35% is the number I started with (not sure where it came from) and it 'works for me'. With small amounts of steeping grains, it's probably a 1 or 2 SG difference.

The original recipe does a 45 min steep, mine are usually 15 min.

In the new grain bill, I used 75% mash efficiency for all the malts.
 
Thank you so much. For some reason your 'logo' does not allow PM action, other 'logos' do allow it. I do not know why.

What I did not say in my initial thread is that my daughter has stage IV cancer and this will be her last Mother's Day. I wanted it to be special and I believe you have made it so. I cannot thank you enough for your help and the time you spent.

My email is mr_beer at iyf-inc .com. If you email me I will obviously respond. I may have some questions.

Again thank you and if I have questions I will post them.
 
Bains999 said:
Thank you so much. For some reason your 'logo' does not allow PM action, other 'logos' do allow it. I do not know why.
Click to expand...
YVW!
Have you tried clicking on his avatar or his member name underneath? It should take you to his member profile.
There's a [Start conversation] button there.
 
Bains999 said:
What I did not say in my initial thread is that my daughter has stage IV cancer and this will be her last Mother's Day.
Click to expand...
That is so sad to hear and truly devastating.
My thoughts are with you, your daughter, your and her family. I'm sure these are among the hardest times a person can ever go through.
 
The captions were a little too short. "per lb" should have been "per lb of LME" or "per lb of DME".

Here's the updated screenshot with the corrected captions. The numbers are unchanged.

1648048801663.png


(with 75% mash efficiency, more than 16 oz of malts will be needed to get the equivalent of 1 lb of LME or DME).
 
background: there was a side discussion involving a number of people. In a different public topic, there is this good explanation of points (or "gravity points"):

Holden Caulfield said:
every pound of extract and grain has a potential amount (points) of sugar that it will add to your wort. Recipes use these potentials when estimating preboil OGs by estimating the number of points that would be extracted in a homebrewers setup and then dividing those points by the target preboil volume. As sugars do not boil away, the final OG will be the points / post boil volume.
Click to expand...

With the all-grain "Dark DME" grain bill (#8), assuming 75% mash efficiency, the ingredients will yield 44 points. If I double the ingredients and put them in 1 gal of water, I get a wort that's OG 88.

Hopefully this helps clarify (rather than confuse). Points (or gravity points) is something that recipe software properly minimizes when creating recipes.
 
Hello again BrewnWKopperKat
I have ordered the material for the Bituminous Stout. Along the way I ran into an issue with Brewers Licorice Stick. It is no longer available from most sources but I did find some.

You mentioned you have the original recipe contained in a copy "Bituminous Stout": Homebrew Favorites (Storey Publishing, 1994), p 118. Powell's Books"

Could you look at the original recipe and provide the amount of Licorice Stick it called for.

My notes say two and a half (2.5) inches.
Another set of notes says 3.5 ounces which would have been five packages or 25". Way to much in my view

My sense is that somewhere 2.5 inches got translated into ounces by mistake.

Thanks in advance
 

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