Recipe for YeastBay Farmhouse Sour

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Back in the day before I made starters, 2 days was the usual lag time on my brews.
It's probably the reason they were mediocre beers back then.
 
MeanDeuce, what ended up happening with your fermentation? Slow starter or no starter?

I'm seeing something similar. Pitched a vial of Farmhouse Sour (exp. Feb 18/15) into a 3 gallon batch on Jan 18 at 10pm and so far zero signs of fermentation (36h). Temperature at 70F, shook to aerate.
 
I got a slight fizz after 48-60 hrs but never got a krausen until I added a small pitch of Dupont yeast I was saving for a future batch. That kicked things off and I believe fermentation is pretty much over. Haven't taken a pH or gravity reading. But so far looks like a traditional fermentation so far. Yeast rafts with a little fizz left but pretty much no more bubbling in the airlock.

Gonna let it go a few more weeks before racking to secondary. Then I'll test and determine if I should add peaches.

I have no idea what to expect at this point, only three weeks in.
 
After 48h, I see lots of fermentation signs, looks like it was just a little slow off the line. Krausen looks different early on, especially the presence of little 'cotton balls' just below the surface.

I posed the question about lag time of this strain (farmhouse sour ale) to Nick at Yeast Bay, he mentioned they are seeing the same thing, just a slow starter.

20150120_YBFH_krausen_.jpg
 
pbntoast said:
After 48h, I see lots of fermentation signs, looks like it was just a little slow off the line. Krausen looks different early on, especially the presence of little 'cotton balls' just below the surface.



I posed the question about lag time of this strain (farmhouse sour ale) to Nick at Yeast Bay, he mentioned they are seeing the same thing, just a slow starter.
Click to expand...


We definitely have seen this blend take a little longer to get rolling just pitching the vial. If you make a starter though, we've seen much shorter lag times of a day or less.
 
Well there must be some active lacto in there. I've got an ever so tiny pellicle forming out of maybe three medium sized bubbles.

Had checked the gravity earlier this week and it was below 1.009
 
I started at 70F, and left it there for about 5 days. Once fermentation visibly started slowing I started raising the temperature slowly, ending at 75F. Now it is back at 70F, and I'll probably lower it to the low 60s in the next week. At 10 days, my beer measured 1.005.

YeastBay recommends 70F until fermentation begins, then you can do what you want with it. That would depend on what you want the two saison strains to produce. I've only used the French strain, and haven't gone higher than mid-high 70s. People say the Belgian strain likes it very warm, mid 80s. I don't know about the Belgian, but the French will still ferment in the mid-60s, just not as fast with a different flavor profile.

I plan to leave this in my basement for a few months, unfortunately ambient temp is around 58-60f right now. Only have one fermwrap and temperature controller.
 
Any updates on these Farmhouse Sour Ale fermented beers? Trying to gather some more information on our sour blends. Cheers!
 
My brew day was split into two batches. I won't get into the details, but in summary I ended up with 2.75gal of 1.042 wort at 6IBU (pitched farmhouse sour) and 2.75gal of 1.043 wort at 18IBU (pitched saison/brett blend + dregs from Wicked Weed Serenity). My grain bill was the Rare Barrel golden sour recipe (70% pils, 18% wheat, 6% oats, 6% aromatic). Mash temp of 156-157F, shooting for 158F.

I tasted these at the end of primary fermentation, or what I viewed as the end of the saccharomyces fermentation at 10 days. Each krausen looked quite different but seemed to take the same amount of time. Details and tasting notes below.

10 days - Farmhouse sour: 1.007
-Appearance: Pale, turbid, lots of CO2 in suspension. Aroma: slightly tart, bready(like bread yeast), orange. Taste: slightly tart, a bit flat or one-dimensional.

- Saison/Brett blend: 1.008
- Appearance: Golden, slightly cloudy. Aroma: orange, bread, earthy. Taste: orange, tart, and slightly bitter.

- Temperature reduced to 65F over the period of ~1 week

February 19
- Farmhouse Sour: Appearance same. moderate CO2 in solution. Aroma: Strong bready, orange/citrus. Taste: tart, bright. Mouthfeel is thin. SG: 1.002/3. Still a little one dimensional.

- Saison/Brett: Appearance: Slight haze, whisper thin pellicle on surface, white, no bubbles. Quite a lot of CO2 in solution. Aroma: earthy, hay, bread, slight rubbery. Taste: lemon, quite tart, some mouthfeel remaining. SG: 1.007

It may be the recipe design, but at the end of the saccharomyces fermentation, I didn't get a lot of saison character in either beer. In my experience, by 10 days into fermentation, you can really start to tell the character of the beer. Unfortunately it just wasn't there at that time. My goal was to make a tart saison, time will tell if this comes out in the end.

I was a little surprised to see that the lacto had blown through all the food so fast, but hadn't produced a lot of tartness. Depending on what I find when I taste this again, I'm tempted to add some unfermented wort, and possibly another healthy dose of lactobacillus. My mash temp could have been a little higher, but 2F wouldn't have made a huge difference, I don't feel. Next time maybe I could add some more unfermentables in the recipe.

The saison brett blend was surprisingly nice in such a short amount of time, I felt. I was also surprised to see that there was so much gravity remaining (in comparison to the other). I hadn't expected so much sourness from this beer (I thought that the lacto blend would have produced more acidity). I suppose I ruined the experiment by adding another variable (bottle dregs), but I'm excited to see what this turns into.

Both are in my basement (probably 56-58F), will probably get up to 60-62F in a few months. There is currently a very thin, broken pellicle on the brett blend (didn't really reform after sampling, plus I had to move these), nothing on the lacto blend.

I'd be happy to hear suggestions about what to do with the lacto beer that has very few fermentables remaining.
 
I racked mine onto peaches after a month and a half. It was not tart at all when I tried it. Tasted like a thin saison. I've been keeping it at 68* which is ambient in the house. I was hoping the peaches would give the lacto something else to chew on.

I was planning to let this sit on peaches for another month or so but may have to bottle soon since our place is going on the market.

Next time I will create a starter, mash higher and try 5 IBU. This version is probably around 10. I'm sure it will be great once in the bottle and carbed up.
 
Biobrewer said:
Any updates on these Farmhouse Sour Ale fermented beers? Trying to gather some more information on our sour blends. Cheers!
Click to expand...


I haven't touched mine in a while. It's 5 months in now. I'll get a reading/taste sometime this weekend.
 
Fermented_minds said:
What temperature are you planning on using? They recently posted this on their Facebook about their Melange Blend and Farmhouse Sour that might help you on the fermentation end:

"We've been been conducting some experiments with our Mélange Sour Blend and Farmhouse Sour Ale in which we fermented a pale wort of ~5 IBU at 70 F for 3 days, followed by 78 F for 2 weeks. While the beers were still young and the Mélange needs time for the Brettanomyces to work, there was marked acidity in each.

For a fast turn around sour with either blend, you should get good results at 70 F for 3-4 days to allow the yeast to complete a bulk of the fermentation, followed by 76-78 F for 2-4 weeks to ramp up the lactic acid bacteria. If you want the beer to acidify more slowly, we recommend keeping the temperature at 68-70 F. Slower acidification is particularly recommended for the Mélange blend in order to ensure the pH doesn't drop too fast and inhibit the Brettanomyces yeast that will continue to develop the flavor profile of the beer over a long period of time. If you mature the beer on the cooler end, the temperature can always be raised later (and perhaps some extra fermentables added) to increase acidity after the yeast driven flavors fully develop.

Cheers!"
Click to expand...

I'd like to know what "marked acidity" means. Anyone got a pH value to go with these..........

Would making a starter (w no O2) at high temps help grow the lacto over sacc to help increase the activity?
 
I just took a gravity reading and taste sample. 1.002
Fruity nose and taste but only the most mild hint of tartness. Pretty much just a saison. I wouldn't call it sour at all. I don't have anything to test ph.
It was probably the wrong time of year for me to try it. This was at about 70 the whole 5 months. Of course at hotter times of year I won't mail order yeast.

I'll probably just keg this one in my Brett keg in another month or so. It's tasty but I don't think I want to spend time bottling it.

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1426035137.793261.jpg
 
Sounds like a bust......

Wonder if its the ratio of lacto to sacc?. If I recall the directions r the same for melange blend (higher mash temp equals more sour) which is odd because i thought lacto preferred simple sugars. I hope to brew up some saisons this weekend. I'll track pH and taste. Mash high, making half lambic with melange perhaps. Seems like these saison blends r tearing through the gravity points even when mashed high.
 
I just added the dregs of a JP Persimmon Ship to another brew I have going about 3 weeks ago. Crazy pellicle now.
I never did get any kind of pellicle from TYB Farmhouse Sour. After krausen fell that was it.
 
505-Brewer said:
I'd like to know what "marked acidity" means. Anyone got a pH value to go with these..........

Would making a starter (w no O2) at high temps help grow the lacto over sacc to help increase the activity?
Click to expand...

By marked acidity, we mean clearly noticable. I haven't taken pH reading on anything I've made with our Farmhouse Sour Ale, but out Melange I have. My last batch of turbid mash lambic was down to pH 3.31 in 7 weeks. Haven't taken a pH reading since, but I have tasted it and it does apear to be dropping a bit more just based on taste alone.

Also, per the high mash temp recommendation, at least one of the strains of Lactobacillus we use in our Melange and Farmhouse Sour Ale blends produce alpha glucosidase similar to that which many Brettanomyces produce. This allows them to metabolize longer chain carbohydrates that are typically unfermentable via Saccharomyces cerevisiae metabolic pathways.

Regarding the starter question, yes, my experience is that higher temperatures and lower exposure to oxygen increases the growth of Lactobacillus. You just need to be careful about getting the bacteria too active in the starter and running it too long, as the lower pH can eventually have a negative impact on the Saccharomyces' ability to reproduce.
 
Excellent. Thank you for the information.

Hope to brew up some wort this weekend and pitch from my recent order. Im thinking mash at 158F and split between sour saison and melange. pH ~3.3 in 7 weeks sounds great to me! I'll post up how it goes.

I have brett cultures should a starter get the wort too acidic.

But due to time constraints I'll probably pitch one vial per 5.5-6 gals and see how it goes. I'm also assuming re-pitching should increase the relative lacto content?

Excited to have some new yeast options. Thanks for all your efforts.

Cheers.
 
505-Brewer said:
Excellent. Thank you for the information.

Hope to brew up some wort this weekend and pitch from my recent order. Im thinking mash at 158F and split between sour saison and melange. pH ~3.3 in 7 weeks sounds great to me! I'll post up how it goes.

I have brett cultures should a starter get the wort too acidic.

But due to time constraints I'll probably pitch one vial per 5.5-6 gals and see how it goes. I'm also assuming re-pitching should increase the relative lacto content?

Excited to have some new yeast options. Thanks for all your efforts.

Cheers.
Click to expand...


As long as your sanitation practices are good, probably not a huge deal. It likely will take longer to start though. Really excited to be getting more feedback on these sour blends.

Just finished making a beer to test Brettanomyces anomalus and Brettanomyces naardenensis strains I received the other week from a big cell repository. Hopefully they'll be in the product lineup soon!
 
I finally got around to tasting my Farmhouse Sour blend after it's sat for 2 months in my garage at around 68-72 after fermentation finished (fermented at 68, then ramped to 75 by the end and kept there for 2 weeks).
It has no sourness at all. It's a good tasting beer, but it's actually kind of sweet. I couldn't find my hydrometer at the time (I think one of my little ones grabbed it....) so I couldn't take a reading but it's crystal clear. Not sure what I want to do with this one. Definitly wish there was more sourness in it. IBUs were kept around 5.
 
Matteo57 said:
I finally got around to tasting my Farmhouse Sour blend after it's sat for 2 months in my garage at around 68-72 after fermentation finished (fermented at 68, then ramped to 75 by the end and kept there for 2 weeks).

It has no sourness at all. It's a good tasting beer, but it's actually kind of sweet. I couldn't find my hydrometer at the time (I think one of my little ones grabbed it....) so I couldn't take a reading but it's crystal clear. Not sure what I want to do with this one. Definitly wish there was more sourness in it. IBUs were kept around 5.
Click to expand...


I would definitely say have patience with this one. Development of sourness depends on a number of factors related to the environment and the production of the wort. Two months is very short turnaround to be getting strong sourness in many cases depending on the wort production and fermentation parameters. My recommendation would be to keep it a little warmer, and revisit it every month or two until the beer is where you want it.
 
Matteo57 said:
I finally got around to tasting my Farmhouse Sour blend after it's sat for 2 months in my garage at around 68-72 after fermentation finished (fermented at 68, then ramped to 75 by the end and kept there for 2 weeks).
It has no sourness at all. It's a good tasting beer, but it's actually kind of sweet. I couldn't find my hydrometer at the time (I think one of my little ones grabbed it....) so I couldn't take a reading but it's crystal clear. Not sure what I want to do with this one. Definitly wish there was more sourness in it. IBUs were kept around 5.
Click to expand...

Can u tell me what temp u mashed at and possibly grain bill? And your FG was? If it wont sour in a couple months then might as well sour up front then ferment out (at cost of saison character). Or just be prepared for the long haul. Im trying to decide what the best mash temp is for this strain. I am thinking 158 using a healthy portion of wheat and some oats. If it wont attenuate then I can always pitch brett. How is the saison character?

Nick can u tell us if this is hetero or homofermentative strain?
 
Matteo57 said:
I finally got around to tasting my Farmhouse Sour blend after it's sat for 2 months in my garage at around 68-72 after fermentation finished (fermented at 68, then ramped to 75 by the end and kept there for 2 weeks).
It has no sourness at all. It's a good tasting beer, but it's actually kind of sweet. I couldn't find my hydrometer at the time (I think one of my little ones grabbed it....) so I couldn't take a reading but it's crystal clear. Not sure what I want to do with this one. Definitly wish there was more sourness in it. IBUs were kept around 5.
Click to expand...

Can u tell us what temp u mashed at and possibly grain bill? And your FG was? If it wont sour in a couple months then might as well sour up front then ferment out (at cost of saison character?). Or just be prepared for the long haul. Im trying to decide what the best mash temp is for this strain. I am thinking 158 using a healthy portion of wheat and some oats. If it wont attenuate then I can always pitch brett. How is the saison character?

Nick can u tell us if this is hetero or homofermentative strain?
 
505-Brewer said:
Can u tell us what temp u mashed at and possibly grain bill? And your FG was? If it wont sour in a couple months then might as well sour up front then ferment out (at cost of saison character?). Or just be prepared for the long haul. Im trying to decide what the best mash temp is for this strain. I am thinking 158 using a healthy portion of wheat and some oats. If it wont attenuate then I can always pitch brett. How is the saison character?

Nick can u tell us if this is hetero or homofermentative strain?
Click to expand...


There is both a heterofermative and homofermative strain in Farmhouse Sour Ale.
 
Pretty sure its the warmth in my house, but temps on the sticky thermometer read 70ish, and I see noticeable tiny bubbles like carbonation in the carboy. Must have woken the yeast and hopefully the lacto up a bit. Previously it sat in the 66-68 range. Maybe they are finally doing some work on the peaches. Its been sitting in secondary on the peaches for a few weeks now.
 
I dumped in the dregs from a Jolly Pumpkin today. I'll let that ride for a while and see where it goes.
 
505-Brewer said:
Can u tell me what temp u mashed at and possibly grain bill? And your FG was? If it wont sour in a couple months then might as well sour up front then ferment out (at cost of saison character). Or just be prepared for the long haul. Im trying to decide what the best mash temp is for this strain. I am thinking 158 using a healthy portion of wheat and some oats. If it wont attenuate then I can always pitch brett. How is the saison character?

Nick can u tell us if this is hetero or homofermentative strain?
Click to expand...

This was kind of done with some stuff on hand, so here is the recipe:
58% Pils
12% Munich
11% 2-row
7% Rye
5% Wheat Malt
7% sugar

IBUs 8-10. I blended this wort that was about 5IBUs with a higher IBU wort so it should be around 8-10 if measurements are correct.
Mashed at 156F

Saison character is pretty good, but it is just a bit sweet still. Again, I wish I would have been able to check the gravity on this. I'll check it again soon and report back then!
 
Thank you for the updates. Im delayed on getting this going but should be brewing in a couple weeks.

Seems like buffering the starter with some CaCO3 would be a good approach to grow lacto and sach in the starter - with minimal O2.

Given Im a couple weeks out I'll def make starters and mash at 158-160F using a golden type grain bill. Half melange half farmhouse sour. Given no one is getting much sourness I'll go for the faster sour method and then age.

My Wyeast oude bruin blend never got below pH 3.8. I even cranked that sucker up to 110F. Just sat there. Finished it off w 3726. Aged on mangos and dry hopped half. Its really good but just tart. Would be better if really sour.

Man wish I was brewing me a sour beer!
 
@Biobrewer (or anyone else) - Any thoughts about combining the Farmhouse Sour w/ one of the Brett blends? Would you recommend pitching all together? Or giving the Farmhouse Sour some time to work on its own?

I just pulled the trigger on an order now that things are back in stock. Picked up Beersel and Amalgamation blends in addition to Brevis and Farmhouse Sour. Thanks!
 
BGBC said:
@Biobrewer (or anyone else) - Any thoughts about combining the Farmhouse Sour w/ one of the Brett blends? Would you recommend pitching all together? Or giving the Farmhouse Sour some time to work on its own?

I just pulled the trigger on an order now that things are back in stock. Picked up Beersel and Amalgamation blends in addition to Brevis and Farmhouse Sour. Thanks!
Click to expand...

Totally depends on what you're going for. I'd just check out the description of each and find one that suits your tastes.
 
505-Brewer said:
Thank you for the updates. Im delayed on getting this going but should be brewing in a couple weeks.

Seems like buffering the starter with some CaCO3 would be a good approach to grow lacto and sach in the starter - with minimal O2.

Given Im a couple weeks out I'll def make starters and mash at 158-160F using a golden type grain bill. Half melange half farmhouse sour. Given no one is getting much sourness I'll go for the faster sour method and then age.

My Wyeast oude bruin blend never got below pH 3.8. I even cranked that sucker up to 110F. Just sat there. Finished it off w 3726. Aged on mangos and dry hopped half. Its really good but just tart. Would be better if really sour.

Man wish I was brewing me a sour beer!
Click to expand...

Buffering the pH with CaCO3 is definitely an option to prevent the acidity from causing issues with the growth of the yeast. Either way, Sacch will dominate the front end of fermentation, so the development of sourness will have a lot more to do with your wort production methods and what remains for the LAB to metabolize.
 
MaddBaggins said:
I dumped in the dregs from a Jolly Pumpkin today. I'll let that ride for a while and see where it goes.
Click to expand...


About 3 weeks in. The gravity hasn't changed, I didn't think it would change much. It's at 1.002. The flavor and sourness has certainly picked up. I don't know if thats just because of the JP dregs or the warmer temps or both. Either way it's most definitely a better beer than it was 3 weeks ago.
Pushing 6 months now.
 
Still looking forward to trying one of these blends, probably Melange.
From some comments, I don't understand why the expectation of a truly nice sour beer in a short period of time.
When I pitch a blend like Bug County, I don't even check it until 9 months...knowing I will allow a minimum of over a year to build complexity, even if it shows a level of sourness I am pleased with.

If you want a quick sour, use your lacto up front and follow with sacc and/or brett, but don't expect the same complexity.
 

Similar threads

jturman35
Red IPA recipe
Replies
16
Views
2K
Indian_villager
I
A
Lallemand Farmhouse Recipe Feedback
Replies
3
Views
979
MikeCo
M
K
Recipe Critique: Sour Ginger Peach with Sourvisae
Replies
1
Views
782
AlexKay
A
B
Recipe style.. American Lambic, Farmhouse Ale, or something else?
Replies
5
Views
982
hottpeper13
H
BrewZer
My Homebrew Supplier Didn't Like My Recipe
Replies
12
Views
2K
Bobby_M
Bobby_M

Latest posts

Back
Top