Recipe feedback (before I screw things up)

[MetzgersBrauhaus]

Hey guys, long time lurker, first time poster.

I've got a couple beers under my belt so far (first, NB White House Honey Porter, turned out great; second, NB Saison de Noel still carbing), and am ready to get some of my own recipes going. I've come up with a couple, picking up inspiration from Palmer, and other folks online, but before I go out and buy a bunch of stuff and mess it all up, I figured I'd turn to you all and your experience.

Here's the two I've come up with, and am ready to spend the weekend putting together:

(Au Lait! Cream Coffee Stout)

3.15lbs Munich LME (60 min)
3.15lbs Gold LME (60 min)
0.5lbs Briess Caramel 60L (Mash 60 min @ 156&#730
0.5lbs English Black Malt (Mash 60 min @ 156&#730
0.5lbs Fawcett Oat Malt (Mash 60 min @ 156&#730
0.5lbs English Chocolate Malt (Mash 60 min @ 156&#730
1lb Lactose (15 min)
1oz Centennial Hops (60 min)
8oz Cold brewed coffee (at yeast pitch)
1pkg Wyeast 1098 (British Ale)

The tastybrew.com recipe calculator said it would turn out with these vitals (keeping in mind I had to make a couple subs to fit into their menus)

OG: 1.052
FG: 1.013
IBU: 60
ABV: 5.00%
SRM: 38

The IBUs seem REALLY high. But I'm wondering if that's an oddity from the calculator, or if I should be expecting a REALLY bitter, sweet stout. Also, I'm more-or-less mashing, instead of steeping, because of the oat malt. Is that necessary? Other thoughts?

Here's the second:

(Kekse Christmas Cookie Mild)

6lbs Maris Otter LME (60 min)
0.5lbs Belgian Special B (Mash 60 min @ 156&#730
0.25lbs English Chocolate Malt (Mash 60 min @ 156&#730
1.0lb Weyermann Carawheat (Mash 60 min @ 156&#730
0.5lbs Flaked oats (roasted 30 min @ 350&#730 (Mash 60 min @ 156&#730
0.5lbs Flaked wheat (roasted 30 min @ 350&#730 (Mash 60 min @ 156&#730
1 cinnamon stick (5 min)
1oz East Kent Goldings (45 min)
1pkg Wyeast 1388 (Belgian Strong Ale)

Again, the tastybrew.com calcs for this one are:

OG: 1.052
FG: 1.013
IBU: 27
ABV: 5.00%
SRM: 47

This one I WILL be doing a partial mash on, since, as I understand, flaked oats MUST be mashed. But all guidance is helpful, especially since I'm working, essentially, with an all-extract brewhouse (that is, no mash tun).

Want to get these two rolling this weekend in anticipation of a Christmas shindig we have coming up in the middle of December.

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

Flaked oats do not need to be mashed. They are already partially cooked, like instant oatmeal. You just need to steep with your other grains. You're just trying to get the proteins and starches out of the oats but not necessarily convert the starches. If you are starting from raw oats, like steel cut oats, yes, they need to be boiled and cereal mashed.

The mild recipe seems fine although it's probably too hoppy for a mild. You could cut the hops in half.

The stout recipe needs some work. You don't need to mash any of those grains. You don't need conversion and most of them won't convert anyway. Black malt isn't right for a stout unless you need it in a small amount for color adjustment. Instead, you want to use roasted barley. I would use flaked oats (I just use the store brand instant oatmeal from grocery stores myself) instead of malted oats. It's cheaper and you don't need the diastatic power of malted oats. You also don't need the amount of munich in the munich extract. I'd just use a base of marris otter extract. The munich is unnecessary for a stout but if you want it there I'd just add 0.25-0.5lb of munich malt to the steeping grains. I'd also get some flaked barley in there for mouthfeel. I know you have the oats and lactose but flaked barley is a common adjunct in stouts, even milk stouts that have lactose and oats. I think the combination of flaked oats and flaked barley creates a superb mouthfeel. So I'd reformat the grain bill to look like:

6lb Marris Otther LME
0.25lb Munich malt
0.5lb Crystal 60
0.75lb Roasted Barley
0.5lb Flaked Oats
0.5lb Flaked Barley
0.5lb Chocolate malt

Play around with those numbers. I'd also take a second look at the hops, there's no way you're getting 60IBUs unless you miscalculated water volumes or boil duration. You only need IBUs in the low 20s.

 

[MetzgersBrauhaus]

Wow. Thank you! This is exceptionally helpful!

 

[Metzger22]

We must share the same last name.

 

[MetzgersBrauhaus]

Okay, so changing the recipe to the following:

6lbs Maris Otter LME (60min)
0.5lbs Briess Caramel 60L (steeped)
0.75lbs Roasted Barley (steeped)
0.5lbs Flaked Oats (steeped)
0.5lbs English Chocolate Malt (steeped)
0.25lbs Briess Organic Munich (steeped)
0.5lbs Flaked Barley (steeped)
1lb Lactose (15 min)
0.5oz Centennial Hops (60 min)
8oz Cold brewed coffee (at pitch)
1pkg Wyeast 1098 (British Ale)

That gives me a calculated result of:
OG: 1.047
FG: 1.012
IBU: 31
ABV: 4.50%
SRM: 41

This is assuming a 4gal (original) boil. That seem closer to right?

 

[MetzgersBrauhaus]

We must share the same last name.

It would appear so. Heh.

 

[signpost]

Since you won't be mashing (as mashing wouldn't get you any conversion anyway, due to lack of enzymes), you will probably not get the predicted OG. Most likely, you will get whatever OG the extract and lactose alone would come to. Of course, if whatever you used to calculate the OG took that into consideration, then your number might be right.

I did several batches that missed my predicted OG by a fair amount and I've realized this was my problem.

If you are OK with whatever OG you get from re-calculating based on just the extract and sugars, then you can leave your recipe as it is. But if you really want the gravity you had already come to, you will have to make adjustments. Basically, in order to get gravity contributions from those grains, you need to include some base malt (2-row, 6-row, Maris Otter, etc.) and do a real partial mash. The base malt has the enzymes needed to convert the starches to sugars that can then be consumed by the yeast.

Now that I've said that, I've found this chart.

That seems to say that you will get some sugars from the grains you are using, but not as much as if you did a real mash with some base malts.

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

If you're using a calculator, like BeerSmith, that distinguishes between extract and all-grain (or partial mash) then it will correctly calculate the OG.

The redesigned recipe is probably still a little too bitter, especially since you're going to get some acrid bitterness from the roasted barley and coffee.

 

[signpost]

Ah, I didn't know Beersmith accounted for the difference between steeping and mashing. The calculators I've used (hopville & BrewPal) don't seem to take it into consideration.

 

[GASoline71]

I've found the tastybrew.com calculator puts the IBU's extremely high in all my recipes. I started using the BrewR app for my android phone, and it's way more realistic in IBU calculations.

Gary

 

[Jayhem]

1.047 is a very low OG for a stout. Most stouts start in the 1.055 - 1.060 range. Otherwise sounds like a good working recipe.

 

[MetzgersBrauhaus]

Well, I'm wondering how much it has to do with the calculator. I'm using the tastybrew.com full recipe calculator, and it DOES (so it says) differentiate between steeping and mashing.

However, I'm thinking it lowballs the OG, and highballs the IBUs for certain. When I brewed the NB White House Honey Porter kit (which I know they wouldn't put out with such an off bunch of numbers), tastybrew gave me the following:

OG: 1.048
FG: 1.012
IBU: 48
SRM: 34
ABV: 4.6%

After having knocked several of those back already, I can tell you that the IBUs are NOWHERE NEAR 48, tastewise. And I thought a 1.048 OG was really low as well.

Perhaps I need to find a new recipe calculator. Or bite the bullet and buy hydrometers and stuff. Being broke sucks.

 

[MetzgersBrauhaus]

Okay, so I went and found the Brewers Friend calculator, which seemed WAY more intuitive (and complete). Here's what I got for the Cream Coffee Stout recipe:

OG: 1.056
FG: 1.015
IBU: 16
SRM: 40
ABV: 5.4%

Also handy with that calculator is it gives you "style match" info. And this result doesn't match the Sweet Stout style (IBUs too low). But if I jump back up to the original 1oz of Centennial hops at 60 min, it pops back up to a style-matching 32.

From your all's experience, does this final result seem to better match the grain bill better?

 

[signpost]

I didn't put the recipe in a calculator myself, but I'd say those numbers look pretty good.

 

[Jayhem]

Okay, so I went and found the Brewers Friend calculator, which seemed WAY more intuitive (and complete). Here's what I got for the Cream Coffee Stout recipe:

OG: 1.056
FG: 1.015
IBU: 16
SRM: 40
ABV: 5.4%

Also handy with that calculator is it gives you "style match" info. And this result doesn't match the Sweet Stout style (IBUs too low). But if I jump back up to the original 1oz of Centennial hops at 60 min, it pops back up to a style-matching 32.

From your all's experience, does this final result seem to better match the grain bill better?

Looks good to me. I agree though that ibu's should be at least 30 for any stout.

I always use hopville beercalculus http://beercalculus.hopville.com/recipefor my recipes and it is usually spot in with the numbers I measure.