Recipe Critique: Imperial Spiced Pumpkin Latte

[kjjohns5]

I wanted to make a beer for the holidays and if I brew it this weekend I should be able to pull off at least some very green bottles. I already have an IIPA to brew on Saturday and I was thinking about doing a double brew. I really enjoy ST's Creme Brule and I wanted to develop my own type of desert/flavored beer. I thought about trying to give an imperial stout some pumpkin spice and coffee flavors, and decided to just go with a milk stout recipe and call it a spiced pumpkin latte, since I love those at starbucks

I think I'm going to keg the IIPA and bottle half of this batch and party pig the other half.

Looking for feedback on both the recipe and the methods, please. If you have any experience with anything I'm adding your expertise and guidance is very much appreciated.

5.5 gallon batch

73% 14 lbs 2-Row
10% 2 lbs Chocolate Malt
8% 1.5 lbs Carmel 80L
8% 1.5 lbs Roasted Barley
1% 0.25 lbs Black Patent Malt

FWH 0.5 oz Chinook
FWH 0.5 oz Columbus
30 min 0.5 oz Citra

10 min 2 lbs Pumpkin
10 min 1 lbs Lactose
10 min 2 tbs Cinammon
10 min 2 tbs Nutmeg

Wyeast Thames Valley Ale (1275)

@ bottling/party pigging add 1 lbs cold press brewed coffee

OG: 1.095
FG: 1.022
IBU: 60-65
ABV: 9.5-10%

 

[arover]

I would definitely add the pumpkin in the mash, if at all. It honestly isn't going to add much, especially in the style of a stout. I like to feel that, when doing my pumpkin ales, the real pumpkin gives it some extra orange color (and contributes sugar, very mild flavor). Also, for a more authentic pumpkin spice, I would consider adding allspice and ginger powder...and cut back on the cinnamon and nutmeg, a LOT. Since too much spices can completely overwhelm a beer, and a little goes a long way, I would do something like this:

Make the spice mixture (1/2 tsp cinnamon, 1/4 tsp ginger, 1/8 tsp nutmeg, 1/8 tsp allspice) and add 2/3rd during the last 2 min (10 minutes will drive away a lot of volatile compounds, which you don't want). Add the rest to taste after the primary fermentation finishes, then rack it to the keg when you're satisfied.

I would go very mild with the coffee flavor as well, relying more on the roasted barley and black patent to give it that toasty flavor. Since you'll be kegging, I would consider trying it at a small scale first, mixing a pint with a very minor amount of cold press coffee to see how it goes, and upscaling from there. The coffee may or may not complement the pumpkin spice, so be patient with experimenting. It will depend on what coffee you go for, you probably don't want anything roasted too dark or overwhelming with flavor.

You will also probably want a yeast on the cleaner side (I have no experience with 1275), since you have a lot going on in there in terms of taste.

 

[alcibiades]

the roasted barley might overpower everything. I would stick with pale chocolate malt, and maybe some carafa III for color. you can boil the pumpkin the whole 60 min too, thats what I do and my pumpkin ale comes out awesome. Personally, I would stay away from the lactose. You'll have enough sweetness with that OG and caramel 80 as long as you dont put too much roasted barley or hops in it. speaking of hops, I would do noble hops or english style hops, hopped to no more than 25 IBU, to let the spice, pumpkin, and coffee flavors shine. Just my two cents. Awesome idea!

 

[kjjohns5]

I've only ever heard of putting pumpkin in the boil to get flavors. Or at least that it's the most efficient.

Are those spices over the top? I've come across a few recipes online that use that amount in stouts or porters that aren't as big of a beer as this one and they said that it imparted only noticeable characteristics.

I can understand your concern, alcibiades, with the roasted barley. Perhaps I'll go with carafa III to decrease on the roasted qualities.

The lactose I felt has to be there for the "latte" taste. I've had a milk stout with way more than what I put in it, with way more carmel, and it came out perfectly.

arover, I've used Thames Valley and had much success with stouts, porters, and brown ales. Even barley wines. Also, that strand is Cigar City Brewing's house yeast and they use it in everything but their saison. It's a solid strand.

 

[arover]

Well, you're going to get a pumpkin flavor, but it's going to taste nothing like pumpkin spice. It tastes like squash; I don't see why you wouldn't be able to extract it from an extra long mash anyhow. I would just advise against it to save you a lot of loss of beer, since you're going to end up with a whole mess of pumpkin in your fermenter, that stuff gets everywhere. Regardless, if you do go for it, don't forget to stick it in the oven and let it brown for a little bit for some carmelization to occur.

In re to the spices, I've just had bad luck with cinnamon...Anything over 1-2 tsp has overwhelmed any spiced beers I've ever used it for, including a stout. The key is to add less on boil-out and add more later, and sample it daily to taste. You can always add, you can only remove (through aging) to an extent. I got that spice recipe from "Brewing Classic Styles" and it's provided the exact subtle pumpkin spice backbone I was looking for in my latest pumpkin ale.

If you're looking for more of a latte taste you might want to consider a little vanilla, as the slight vanilla may give more of a creamy milk taste than the sweetness of lactose. Or maybe a little bit of both.

 

[kjjohns5]

I always use muslin bags in my beers. I hate having hop/fruit in my beer so I just bag it when I add it to the boil or dry hop. Have had a lot of success doing it, and the clean up is very easy. I'd put the pumpkin in a bag. I'll do some research on pumpkin in mash.

Maybe I'll bring down my spices to 2 tsp, then. I'll look into perfect spices for pumpkin.

 

[kjjohns5]

Hey, I was taking a look at some recipes that called for pumpkin being mashed, but I hear that if you use an SS braid in your mash tun, which I do, prepare for a stuck sparge. That the sparging could take up to 4 hours alone?

Would rice hulls solve this?

 

[arover]

Hey, I was taking a look at some recipes that called for pumpkin being mashed, but I hear that if you use an SS braid in your mash tun, which I do, prepare for a stuck sparge. That the sparging could take up to 4 hours alone?

Would rice hulls solve this?

Yup, I have a SS braid as well. I threw in roughly a half pound of rice hulls (you will probably want a little more with that much grain). My sparging took no longer than normal. After toasting the pumpkin I mashed it up and mixed it in with the top half of the mash. The day went down without a problem, just make sure you don't sparge too fast.

 

[kjjohns5]

Ok, I toned this thing down after your suggestions and more research. It's no longer an imperial, but I figure that if I can make this one work, I could always convert this sucker into an imperial later on (which I will, mwahahahahaha).

Pumpkin Spice Latte:

56% 8 lbs 2-Row
26% 3.75 lbs Pumpkin (cooked)
7% 1 lbs Chocolate Malt
7% 1 lbs Rice Hulls
4% 0.5 lbs Carmel 60L

0.5 oz Columbus @ 60 min

0.5 lbs Lactose @ 10 min
0.5 tsp Cinnamon @ 1 min
0.5 tsp Pumpkin Pie Spice @ 1 min

Wyeast Thames Valley (1275)

@ bottling/party pigging add 1 lbs cold press brewed coffee

OG: 1.048
FG: 1.011
IBU: 30
ABV: 5%

 

[arover]

Ok, I toned this thing down after your suggestions and more research. It's no longer an imperial, but I figure that if I can make this one work, I could always convert this sucker into an imperial later on (which I will, mwahahahahaha).

Pumpkin Spice Latte:

56% 8 lbs 2-Row
26% 3.75 lbs Pumpkin (cooked)
7% 1 lbs Chocolate Malt
7% 1 lbs Rice Hulls
4% 0.5 lbs Carmel 60L

0.5 oz Columbus @ 60 min

0.5 lbs Lactose @ 10 min
0.5 tsp Cinnamon @ 1 min
0.5 tsp Pumpkin Pie Spice @ 1 min

Wyeast Thames Valley (1275)

@ bottling/party pigging add 1 lbs cold press brewed coffee

OG: 1.048
FG: 1.011
IBU: 30
ABV: 5%

Looks good to me, I'm really curious to see how the pumpkin spice and coffee will turn out together. Like I said, if the pumpkin spice isn't too prominent after a week or two in the primary, you can always add a little more and take samples daily. I would also recommend a 90 minute mash with the pumpkin. I'm curious why you removed the barley/black grains and most of the hops?

 

[kjjohns5]

I removed the roasted grains because I spoke with a guy at my LHBS and he recommended it so that the roast qualities don't battle the pumpkin taste. I still get my color with the chocolate. Also, since I said I wanted it to be a desert beer, and since I'm adding coffee, he suggested that I up the base malt to maybe 10#s, and up the Lactose to like 1.5#s, to make sure that this baby is sweet and has body.

I took out the hops because I didn't want the IBUs to battle the pumpkin flavor either. Even though I'd love to have this taste in a big imperial. That's the overall goal from the get go. I wanted a big, heavy desert beer that you sip on after a huge meal. Lots of alcohol, super malty and hoppy, with pumpkin spiced flavor.

 

[kjjohns5]

MMM, I love the smell of fermentation in the morning...

I brewed this yesterday (finally got around to it). Brew went very well, hit all of my temps, got 80% efficiency.

I roasted the pumpkin in the oven @ 300 for 45 min. Put my strike water in the mash tun, put my grains in, mashed @ 155. Batch sparged with no stuck grains, the rice hulls did the trick. I upped the base malt a bit as well as the lactose since I will be putting coffee in this as well.

Brewed Recipe:

10 lbs 2-Row
3.75 lbs Pumpkin
1.5 lbs Chocolate Malt
1.0 lbs Rice Hulls
0.5 lbs 60-L

0.5 oz Columbus (15.6%) @ 60 min

Thames Valley Ale Yeast (1275)

1.5 lbs Lactose @ 10 min
1 tsp Ground Cinnamon @ 1 min
1 tsp Pumpkin Spice @ 1 min

Going to add the coffee either in the secondary as whole beans, as the guys at my LHBS claim that they had great success doing it that way, or cold brew and add at bottling.

Taste is amazing! Post-boil was sweet but not overly, mildly roasty, lots of chocolate qualities, and perfect pumpkin pie taste that finishes a little bitter from the hop.

It's bubbling like crazy right now so I'll update as I try more later this week.