Reasons to go all grain vs extract??

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JulietKilo

JulietKilo

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I'm a fairly novice brewer of German wheat beers/weizens. Done about 20 5-gal extract brews so far, and pretty happy with results. A friend promoted going all grain as better somehow, but without quite explaining why, I think a notion of being more "purist" or something like that. I assume there must be other reasons that so many do it. I'd love to know what they are? I see lots of threads on how but not on why. I'd certainly go that route if the reasons are good ones....

Thanks!
JK
 
I think you get a better quality beer in All grain for starters. You have a lot more control of your recipe and can make small tweaks to really brew that beer that suits your taste. And last but not least the satisfaction and pride of making your beer from scratch and you can actually say I made this...especially if you developed the recipe.
 
Simply put, more control over your final product. You can control flavors in a much more fine-tuned way, you can use grains that you can't use in extract brews (certain grains that do not appear in extracts, but also can't be steeped due to needing to be mashed for starch conversion), and you can control the fermentability of your wort much better (i.e. You can control how dry/how much residual sweetness the final product is). Basically, you are not relying on the extract producer to control a major step of the brewing process.

Now, there's absolutely nothing wrong with making extract beers. But if you're willing to go to a little extra trouble, all grain brewing opens up a world of possibilities that aren't available to the extract brewer.
 
JulietKilo said:
I'm a fairly novice brewer of German wheat beers/weizens. About 20 extract brews so far, and pretty happy with results. A friend promoted going all grain as better somehow, but without quite explaining why, I think a notion of being more "purist" or something like that. I assume there must be other reasons than that as so many do it. I'd love to know what they are? I'd certainly go that route if the reasons are good ones....

Thanks!
JK
Click to expand...

Since you like lighter color beers, they are more difficult to get with extract because extract adds color.

With wheat beers, you need to make sure your extract is super-fresh, otherwise your beer will suffer.

With all-grain you can do protein rest, ferulic acid rest and decoctions, which are important for hefeweizens (first two), and for german lagers (decoction).

You can dial in fermentability of your beer - make it dryer/higher ABV or more complex in mouthfeel - by mashing.

You can mix and match all sorts of grains that give a more complex flavor that you can dial in any way you want.

You can match any recipe you designed (or someone else designed) *exactly* with all-grain - with extract you need to make some compromises.

Your question is a bit like someone who has been eating Hot Pockets and microwave pizza for their entire life asking whether it's better if they tried cooking real meals on the stove.
It's still "food", technically, but it opens a wide range of possibilities and flavors.

All-grain also much cheaper (depends on your extract price, but for me it's about 3 times cheaper for grain vs. extract bill). My grain bill for regular 7-8% ABV or so beer is typically about $15-18, but for extract it would have been $45 or so (3 lbs of DME are $14.99 at my shop but US 2-row is $.99/lb, or $.80 if you buy 50lbs bag).

Having said that, all grain requires some extras:
extra time (about 1.5 hours or so) for mashing.
Extra equipment - larger pot that can hold 1.5-2 times the volume you want to brew (no dilution), BIAB bag, or perhaps a separate mashtun, and a way to chill your wort (aka wort chiller).

Get a good book about home-brew and try to figure out if this is for you.
 
Certainly sounds like the way to go after a bit more experience. I've never even varied/experimented with the grain blend in my extract weizen recipe, only tried various yeasts.

Thanks!
JK
 
TexasDroughtBrewery said:
I think you get a better quality beer in All grain for starters...
Click to expand...

I wouldn't guarantee that. It took me a long time to realize my tap water that made great extract beer was not immediately suited for mashing grains and my overall quality plummeted when I made the switch. Note that I'm taking water chemistry into consideration things are back on track. Definitely depends on water source here...

Pros:
-control of subtle characteristics
-cost is half or less of extract
-ego
-knowledge (having to control the many aspects of your beer results in much deeper understanding of beer styles and effects of the process)

Cons:
-time (add at least 1-2 hours to a brewday)
 
55x11 said:
Your question is a bit like someone who has been eating Hot Pockets and microwave pizza for their entire life asking whether it's better if they tried cooking real meals on the stove.
It's still "food", technically, but it opens a wide range of possibilities and flavors.
Click to expand...

Great analogy/metaphor, and all you wrote, very helpful, thank you!
 
PGEduardo said:
I wouldn't guarantee that. It took me a long time to realize my tap water that made great extract beer was not immediately suited for mashing grains and my overall quality plummeted when I made the switch. Note that I'm taking water chemistry into consideration things are back on track. Definitely depends on water source here...

Pros:
-control of subtle characteristics
-cost is half or less of extract
-ego
-knowledge (having to control the many aspects of your beer results in much deeper understanding of beer styles and effects of the process)

Cons:
-time (add at least 1-2 hours to a brewday)
Click to expand...


I guess we are lucky here in Texas never had that problem. I even know that some not all... of our local breweries don't treat their water.
 
Making beer from extract is akin to heating up a can of Campbell's soup and proclaiming you made soup. Not really the same thing. You just warmed it up.

But it is a great stepping stone to the real deal. I think everyone should do a extract batch a couple times if they've never brewed before.
 
I found my first two extract brews to be quite cloying. I have my third batch (all-grain) in the fermenter, and i'm very optimistic.
 
JulietKilo said:
Great analogy/metaphor, and all you wrote, very helpful, thank you!
Click to expand...

maybe it's not quite microwave. Maybe toaster oven. And you can make great pizza's and grilled cheese sandwiches with just toaster oven. But cooking opens up more possibilities.
 
My first three batches were extract. First was drinkable but not much more than that. Second and third were better, but there was....something about them. I have come to understand it as extract twang although some argue that this does not exist.

Brewed all-grain with my 4th and 5th batches, and recipes were off--but no twang. Finally hit on my 6th batch. Very clear what's hop, what's malt, and at least so far there haven't been any weird twang-like flavors.

Having said that, many have brewed good beer from extract. One guy in my local homebrew club brews great beer and insists he's never done anything but extract brews. I may have to go watch him brew, if he'd let me, to see how he does it. He wins throwdowns all the time.

As for me, I'm sticking with all grain. Easy to tweak recipes, try out weird combos, match recipes that are posted here and everywhere, and to my mind, all-grain tastes more....complete.

The LHBS owner has talked about an....experiment, I suppose, where some of us would brew the same recipe, some w/ all-grain, some extract, then compare the result. I'm anxious for us to do that so I can really see what, at least, the average difference might be.
 
I agree with the others, BUT (and it's a big BUT) if you are happy with your beers and you enjoy them and don't desire to change them at all, then I don't think you should go to all-grain brewing.

There are people who cook who are happy with their meals, though they may be 'basic'. Then there are people who need to make avant garde crazy deconstructed turkduken or whatever. Most people are in between.

The same is true of brewing. If someone feels that their beer is great, they should continue what they are doing. But if you feel that you could improve the beers for yourself by making them lighter/wheaty/full bodied/whatever, then that should be the desire to change.

Changing to all grain because someone told you it was 'better' isn't enough to make the change.

I will suggest a middle ground here to start. Start doing partial mashes, with some grain and less extract. It only takes a larger grainbag in most cases, and if you like the results, then you may consider staying at that point or moving onto all-grain.
 
Yooper said:
I agree with the others, BUT (and it's a big BUT) if you are happy with your beers and you enjoy them and don't desire to change them at all, then I don't think you should go to all-grain brewing.

I will suggest a middle ground here to start. Start doing partial mashes, with some grain and less extract. It only takes a larger grainbag in most cases, and if you like the results, then you may consider staying at that point or moving onto all-grain.
Click to expand...

THIS. People win medals in homebrew competitions with extract beers, so brewing with extract isn't a guarantee of inferior beer and, conversely, brewing all-grain isn't a guarantee of superior beer. I think the problem lies in that extract brewers are usually (painting with an extremely broad brush here) beginners/newcomers to the hobby and don't have the kinks in there process ironed out yet as it regards sanitation, yeast handling, oxygenation, fermentation temperature control, etc. and folks who do have these things nailed down have moved on to brewing all-grain as a natural "next step". It is true that all-grain brewing affords so much more freedom when it comes to grain choices, wort fermentability, etc. but, along with that freedom comes infinitely more chances to screw it up. Clearly we don't let those chances deter us from giving it a go but, if you're making beer that you're happy with and you're still getting a grip on the process of making beer (and I would argue that the fermentation/packaging side of the process is far more important than extract vs. all-grain), I would hold out until you both want to produce a beer in a style that you simply can't with extract AND adding an all-grain mash/lauter to your process is the only thing in your process that needs to change. Either way, keep on brewing! Cheers! :mug:
 
Actually some pretty good hefeweizens can be made with extract. It is pretty simple style to brew, perfect for beginning brewers. It doesn't really require any specialty malts, and hopping is minimal. Many AG brewers will use wheat extract for a portion of their fermentables to avoid a stuck sparge.

And there lies the paradox. Hefeweizens can be tricky to mash because wheat malt is high in protein and has no husk to aid in filtering- leading to a coagulated grain bed that won't drain aka "stuck sparge". There are many ways around it if you plan for it, but I would suggest using wheat extract and just mash barley your first batch just to get the feel of how a typical mash should go.

Reasons to go all grain:

1- Economy. Buy your grains in bulk, reuse your yeast and you should be able to brew a hefeweizen for about .25 to .35 a bottle. You can get started fairly cheaply with a brew in a bag system, so you will recoup equipment costs in no time.

2- Progression of the hobby. If you toured this forum, you can see that this hobby quickly turns into an obsession. I have seen people progress from stovetop extract brewers to full blown commercial craft brewers.

3- Keep your neighbors wondering. Before I went electric and moved indoors, I would always see the neighbors peeking out their windows wondering if I was making moonshine or running a meth lab
 
I call BS on saying that extract is the equivalent to hot pockets or Campbell's soup.

The hot pockets equivalent is a can of beer that you chill and drink. (Just as you heat and eat.)

Extract brewing is more like using a can of chicken stock to make soup. It's not totally from scratch but it is still home made.

If you didn't grow the grain, you're not really doing it from scratch.

What if we talked about baking the same way... Flour at the store? That's a cheater's way of baking. Sugar in a bag? Lazy!!

You'll never get respect as an extract brewer, that's the main reason for switching. Street cred on Homebrewtalk.

That said, the comments above about wider selection are true. Same for more control of things like mash water and ferment ability by adjusting mash temp.

And I don't think it was mentioned, but grain is cheaper. You can make an all grain recipe for about 75% the cost of the same in extract.
 
Yoooper, IMO said it best.

Pros: More control over the recipe, Lower cost of ingredients

Cons: More equipment in most cases, Longer time brewing.

In my experience my extract brews are generally just as good as my all grain ones. I have not been hit with the dreaded "extract twang" I do extracts a lot less because extract is too expensive!
 
I like the additional possibilities of AG, but it does take longer and eat up a little more space. On the other hand, it also is much cheaper.

I still brew a couple batches a year as Extract for one reason or another. I have a fantastic Maple Pumpkin Ale that I just can't quite get to taste as good as an AG batch as it is when made Extract.
 
IMO, there are only 3 good reasons to use extract:

- shortage or lack of available time to do all grain
- shortage or lack of funds to buy required equipment for all grain
- shortage or lack of space to store equipment for all grain

That's about it.

I left "lack of brewing knowledge" off the list because going straight to all grain is easy with all of the free information available out there.

I've had extract beers that were very good, but that is in spite of the process, not because of it. With all grain, on the other hand, the nature of the process inherently makes greater heights possible. You may not ever achieve those heights, but you can chase them, and that's what makes it a "hobby" in the first place.
 
Brew in a bag makes it super, super easy to move to all grain, and since you like hefeweizens, something like EdWort's Bavarian Hefeweizen is about the easiest (and quickest) thing to brew and is absolutely delicious. That combination makes for very minimal investment for a high quality result. But like others have said, if it ain't broke don't fix it.
 
My personal take on this is that it doesn't really matter. Yes, extract sometimes makes the beer a bit darker, but if one is already getting good results from extract, then there should be no compelling reason to change. I know some very good brewers that only use extracts (or mostly anyway). Personally, I enjoy the process of all-grain. But that's just me.
 
Everyone's posts in this thread are extremely helpful and interesting. Thanks!!!

Question though: I hear mention of extra equipment and time/effort to do AG? I thought the only difference between extract and AG was more grain and a bigger pot, as the only person I've watched do AG did it that way. Sounds like that's not always the case? Probably be a sticky thread here that explains it, I'll do my homework now :)
 
macaronijones said:
If you do brew in a bag you literally only need a bigger pot and a bag.
Click to expand...

I just made this jump. Going from stove top partial boils to full volume boils required a burner upgrade though. No way an electric stove top extract brewer is making the jump without upgrading heat source (heat stick is another option).
 
I just now realized that "extract" can mean ALL extract, I didn't even know that was a thing? My local brew store had me doing a 6.5Lbs extract and 2Lbs grain blend from day one. So I'm actually doing "partial mash" then right? Need a brewers glossary!
 
JulietKilo said:
I just now realized that "extract" can mean ALL extract, I didn't even know that was a thing? My local brew store had me doing a 6.5Lbs extract and 2Lbs grain blend from day one. So I'm actually doing "partial mash" then right? Need a brewers glossary!
Click to expand...

No, maybe not. Many grains can be steeped, while a partial mash means actually replacing some of the extract with base grains and doing a mash (holding a prescribed amount of grain in a prescribed amount of water at a prescribed temperature, so convert the grains' starches into fermentable sugar). Some grains are ready to be steeped, sort of pre-mashed so to speak, so that they don't need to be mashed. Using them provides color, flavor, and some fermentable sugars without needing base malt for conversion.
 
elbinwyp said:
I just made this jump. Going from stove top partial boils to full volume boils required a burner upgrade though. No way an electric stove top extract brewer is making the jump without upgrading heat source (heat stick is another option).
Click to expand...

True... I brew on the stovetop but I have gas. 3.5 gallon batches are about my sweet spot.
 
I started all-grain a few years ago. Had to quit because of back trouble - the longer brew days were too much. But my biggest concern while I was doing all-grain was the grain storage. Even in Zip-Locks inside a bin, I could still smell the grain. I worried that it would attract mice or roaches. Has anybody had a problem with this?
 
Yooper said:
No, maybe not. Many grains can be steeped, while a partial mash means actually replacing some of the extract with base grains and doing a mash (holding a prescribed amount of grain in a prescribed amount of water at a prescribed temperature, so convert the grains' starches into fermentable sugar). Some grains are ready to be steeped, sort of pre-mashed so to speak, so that they don't need to be mashed. Using them provides color, flavor, and some fermentable sugars without needing base malt for conversion.
Click to expand...

Ok so the 2Lbs of grains in my recipe(light wheat, torrified wheat, & Vienna malt) are likely there for color/flavor, not so much sugar. Gotcha, partial mash is actually part way to AG. Thanks for clarifying that!
 
One thing I'm not sold on is that all-grain is "much cheaper" than extract. It might be true if you're buying grains in bulk, but if you shop online vendors (NB, AIH, etc.) and look at a kit in both all-grain and extract versions, you'll see about a $2 difference/kit. I ENJOY making all-grain beers more - I just enjoy the mashing, etc. I just think the process is more fun, but I'm a teacher and have summers off so I do my all-grain brewing in the summer when time allows. It's not much longer a brew day, but it is more time consuming. That being said, IME, the process is more fun and it's all about having fun. I've made very good beer with both methods though.
 
JulietKilo said:
Ok so the 2Lbs of grains in my recipe(light wheat, torrified wheat, & Vienna malt) are likely there for color/flavor, not so much sugar. Gotcha, partial mash is actually part way to AG. Thanks for clarifying that!
Click to expand...

Actually, wheat malt and Vienna malt DO need to be mashed to convert, so in that case it is a partial mash. You could add a couple more pounds, and reduce the amount of extract used and do an even bigger partial mash if you'd like.
 
homemaltster said:
It seems like people jump to AG so quickly. After you've made that big transition, where do you go from there??
Click to expand...

We keep practicing our craft and trying to get better and better at it.

Water chemistry is the next logical "creative" step.

But mostly we just buy more brewing "toys" that we don't need.

The cost "savings" in all grain brewing is really bull****, because every penny we save by using cheaper ingredients gets spent on something else, whether it's something we need, or just something shiny we want.
 
Kits are overpriced for the ingredients.

As for cost, if you make a 3 gallon beer at 1.045, that's 3 pounds of extract - about $12 without shipping.

To get 1.045 at 75% efficiency, you need 5 pounds of grain. That's less than $10 (possibly way less).

That's how I get 75% for grain cost compared to extract.
 
Yooper said:
Actually, wheat malt and Vienna malt DO need to be mashed to convert, so in that case it is a partial mash. You could add a couple more pounds, and reduce the amount of extract used and do an even bigger partial mash if you'd like.
Click to expand...

Is "mashing" a different thing than the hour soak in 160 deg F water that my instructions call "steeping"?
 
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