REALLY low efficiency

[Tall_Yotie]

So, I am making a strong belgian ale. Mashed in with grain bed being at 152F for 75 mins, drained, did a double batch sparge both with a grain bed at 170F. Got 6.5 gallons out.

I am at a 45% efficiency according to the BrewPal app. I should be at a pre-boil 1.073 but I am at a 1.050. I have read a lot of the "causes of low efficiency" info, but I thought I took care of these.

Is there anything I can do to save the batch? I have no DME on hand, but I guess I could go get some in a pinch.

It is working up to a boil now, so any fast replies are appreciated!

 

[Yooper]

The only thing I can think of is to get some DME.

Before that, though, I'd double check those readings. Did you chill your preboil SG sample first? If it was over 90 degrees, I wouldn't trust the accuracy. Also, did you stir the runnings well? Sometimes the first runnings sink to the bottom and the lighter second runnings are on top. Stir very well (if it's boiling, it's mixing up) and take another sample. Chill it in the freezer for 15 minutes or cool it in an ice bath in a pitcher, and then take a new reading. Maybe the first reading is just an error.

 

[Tall_Yotie]

I will give it a stir. Temp was fine, I think I just did't stir the grain bed during the sparge. I called another brewer and was told to add DME if I wanted a large batch, or to boil and concentrate it to get a smaller batch> I am probably going to boil a god amount of it off.

Thanks for the reply, I will do these steps, thanks for the spped as well!

Cheers

 

[Bobby_M]

You can add some table sugar to get the gravity up a bit. Yeah, stirring your batch sparge water into the grain is pretty important.

 

[JNye]

prolly had a bad crush too, i had that happen to me once.

 

[Bentpirate]

You can add some table sugar to get the gravity up a bit. Yeah, stirring your batch sparge water into the grain is pretty important.

Question for you Bobby; I have a RIMS set up with a March pump; when batch sparging, I recurculate for 10-15 minutes. Is this enough or circulate after a good stir? Just wanted to check where I may be lacking in eff. also - thanks

 

[MaynardX]

10-15 min should be fine for a recirculation. I would doubt this had any affect on your eff.

Im not bobby, but my guess it would have something to do with your crush and/or sparge. I know you did a batch sparge, but I would guess there was some kind of channeling maybe due to a fast run off? Hard to tell without being there.

 

[Tall_Yotie]

I did a fast run off, I was under the impression that I only needed to do a slow run off if fly sparging.

I use the LHBS grain mill, I have heard this is not the best way as the mill can be set up poorly. Unfortunately I am not wanting to make the financial investment in my one mill.

I also didn't do a mash out (adding hot water before the first runoff, I think that is the right term), perhaps that would have helped.

So I added 4 instead of 3 pounds of honey to the boil, and boiled off an extra 3 quarts of liquid to condense it down. Post boil was supposed to be 1.100, only got 1.082, but flavor should be there and the yeast starter was VERY happy going in. If this turns out awesome, there is no way I will be able to remake this!

 

[Bobby_M]

I don't think recirculation is a substitute for stirring in batch sparge water. The physcial agitation likely hurries the diffusion. Recirc may also end up channeling through the bed and missing a lot of sugar.

 

[rocketman768]

prolly had a bad crush too, i had that happen to me once.

#1 reason for low efficiency in my experience. Get your own grain mill; you'll thank me later. Also, make sure your thermometer is reading correctly (with boiling water and/or heavily iced water). I also like pH5.2 stabilizer to keep my enzymes happy.

 

[strat_thru_marshall]

what temp did you take your pre-boil reading at? Did you correct for temperature? If your hydrometer sample was at 150-160F it could have read about 1.050 when in fact your true OG was over 1.070

 

[Tall_Yotie]

I made certain to chill the sample down to around 70F. Through boiling off a good amount I got the 1.050 to a 1.060, and post-boil to 1.082. Not the 1.102 I was supposed to get, but it still should taste just fine I am figuring.

 

[nanofreak]

I may have missed it, but what was the rate of your sparge? Sparging too quickly could have had something to do with it as well.

 

[Tall_Yotie]

It was a fairly quick sparge (did two batch sparges), but I thought with batch I could do that. Do I need to do slow slow drain after letting it all settle for 10 minutes?

 

[mattd2]

I may have missed it, but what was the rate of your sparge? Sparging too quickly could have had something to do with it as well.

Not that I mash, but I have been trying to read all I can about it so take this with a grain o' salt... I thought sparge rate didn't matter with batch sparging as it is the stirirng that mixes the sugar into the sparge water so channling through the grain bed isn't really an issue as the grain is "rinsed" already by the stirring.
You mentioned before you didn't stir once the sparge water was added, is this true or did you mean didn't stir enough?

 

[Tall_Yotie]

I didn't stir. Totally my bad on that. I put some back in and stirred, but it didn't help. I think it was a combo of not stirring and the grain crush.

 

[Yooper]

It was a fairly quick sparge (did two batch sparges), but I thought with batch I could do that. Do I need to do slow slow drain after letting it all settle for 10 minutes?

I didn't stir. Totally my bad on that. I put some back in and stirred, but it didn't help. I think it was a combo of not stirring and the grain crush.

Draining fast is fine, and it's my preferred way! That's the benefit of batch sparging. Add 1/2 sparge water, stir like a madman, vorlauf and drain it out. Do it again. It takes less than 10 minutes. The key is the "stirring like a madman", though! You want to get all of those sugars "loose" in the water. Through diffusion, that will happen eventually in fly sparging. But with batch sparging, the point is to stir up the grain and sparge water together to get the sugars into solution and then drain. Draining fast is the way to go.

Not stirring is probably like not sparging at all. I bet if you took the gravity of the runnings, your first runnings were fine and the second runnings had very little sugar in there.

I think you'll fix the low efficiency easily simply by stirring. Another point I should make is that often efficiency decreases with larger grain bills. So, it's common to get lower efficiency in a higher OG beer anyway. I plan on 65% usually for "big" beers.

 

[Tall_Yotie]

Awesome, thanks for the info and the note on the efficiency as well! I will adjust for a lower efficiency and stir like a madman next time.

Also, would you suggest that I stir right before my first runnings before I get to sparging, or if that not necessary?

 

[JNye]

I am NO expert by any means, but, I would not drain quickly. Maybe its just preference, but, draining too fast seems like bad advice. I think addding the sparge water and stirring alot right away is the way to go...no need to let it sit for 10 minutes. But draining full bore is a bad idea IMO.

 

[Yooper]

Awesome, thanks for the info and the note on the efficiency as well! I will adjust for a lower efficiency and stir like a madman next time.

Also, would you suggest that I stir right before my first runnings before I get to sparging, or if that not necessary?

No, you don't have to stir the grain bed (or the runnings) after the mash. You stir like crazy when you mash in, of course! What I like to do is take a small thermometer and check the temperature all over the mash. If it's the same throughout and not changing, I cover it up and walk away. If it's different in spots, I stir some more until it's equalized. After that, I set the timer for 60 minutes and don't do another thing. When the timer beeps, I vorlauf and drain. Then I add 1/2 my sparge water. I stir like it's my job. Then vorlauf and drain. Then, add the second 1/2 of the sparge water. Again, stir like you mean it. Then vorlauf and drain. Finished!

Stir all of the wort very well, and take a sample. Chill it and then check the SG. I think with checking to make sure you have a good crush (have it run through the mill again if it's not looking like almost all of the husks are broken- some flour in the bag is fine) and stirring well before the batch sparge that you'll do fine next time.

 

[Tall_Yotie]

Awesome, thanks for that info. Again, this batch should be awesome, but the next ones will be better made I figure. I'll make sure to get the LHBS workers to double check my crush, or better yet, go to the LHBS that doesn't let the public use and abuse (and potentially adjust) their mill.

Stir like a madman, this shall be my mantra!

 

[Bubba_Mustafa]

I might have read it wrong, but somewhere I thought I read that if you did no sparging and only took the mashing water, you would have low efficiency, but a high OG. From what I gathered, the efficiency is getting all (most) the sugar out, and for a big beer maybe for go a little efficiency for gravity/concentration.

 

[mattd2]

I might have read it wrong, but somewhere I thought I read that if you did no sparging and only took the mashing water, you would have low efficiency, but a high OG. From what I gathered, the efficiency is getting all (most) the sugar out, and for a big beer maybe for go a little efficiency for gravity/concentration.

With no Sparge you get a high OG becasue the first runnigns have more sugar in the water (higher OG) and each sparge after that you get less and less sugar deisolved in the water. Think of it as washing a really muddy jumper, first wash lots of mud comes out, then each time you risnse it less and less mud comes out.
You get a low efficiency with no sparging because you leave behind all the sugar that the second+ runnings would get out.
So what you gather is correct

 

[Tall_Yotie]

Just an update, did another all grain batch last weekend with a friend. Had the LHBS do the crush, was ok but not great. I stirred like mad at each sparge, and got the efficiency up to 70%! And that was with being a bit under my target temps (my calcs were off for some reason), I figure next time i hit my temps I should do even better.

Thanks again for all the info.