Really fast carbonation

[Poppajim]

I bottled an English Bitters on the 20th. Whenever I bottle with glass I include at least one PET bottle as a tester. This time there were two. I was checking on another beer and happened to notice that both testers were rock hard. That's only 4 days. How is this possible? It's always taken closer to two weeks.

 

[eadavis80]

Maybe you added too much priming sugar this time on accident?

 

[RM-MN]

It doesn't take long for the yeast to eat up the priming sugar and provide the CO2 for the pressure. The plastic bottles that I used would be pretty hard within 24 hours. From that point on, the waiting for the beer to carbonate is a waste. However, it does take some time for the proteins that form the head to get ready. If you open that beer as soon as it has pressure you will get two things, beer that is fizzy with no head and beer that gushes because the yeast particles have not settled out and provide nucleation points for the CO2 to come out of solution.

 

[JonM]

It has formed pressure. That's step one in the carbonation game.

Step two is waiting for that pressure to be absorbed into the liquid. That takes a couple weeks. I bet if you open those bottles now, you'd get a puff of CO2 upon opening, then you'd find flat beer because the CO2 is just hanging out in the headspace and hasn't made its way into the beer. Just give it time.

 

[Poppajim]

Thanks all, I didn't think about the Co2 getting absorbed back into the beer. I'm glad I posted here first before popping one open. Thanks again!

 

[richl025]

It has formed pressure. That's step one in the carbonation game.

Step two is waiting for that pressure to be absorbed into the liquid. That takes a couple weeks. I bet if you open those bottles now, you'd get a puff of CO2 upon opening, then you'd find flat beer because the CO2 is just hanging out in the headspace and hasn't made its way into the beer. Just give it time.

Sorry, that interpretation is not supported by basic chemistry. As the co2 is CREATED by the yeast, it is already in solution. There is no further "absorption" that is needed. Solubility of gasses in liquid depends heavily on temperature - perhaps that is the effect you had previously noted. As another poster pointed out, large amounts of still-suspended particles may also contribute (nucleation) when the bottle is opened and pressure is released.

 

[popgunandy]

Sorry, that interpretation is not supported by basic chemistry. As the co2 is CREATED by the yeast, it is already in solution. There is no further "absorption" that is needed. Solubility of gasses in liquid depends heavily on temperature - perhaps that is the effect you had previously noted. As another poster pointed out, large amounts of still-suspended particles may also contribute (nucleation) when the bottle is opened and pressure is released.

Not be argumentative about a science issue, but CO2 leaves the solution as it is created until the pressure within the bottle forces it to remain in solution.

To borrow from the phrasing of the earlier post, step one is creating enough CO2 to pressurize the vessel; step two is creating more CO2 to saturate the solution (to a desirable level, of course).

 

[Calder]

Not be argumentative about a science issue, but CO2 leaves the solution as it is created until the pressure within the bottle forces it to remain in solution.

To borrow from the phrasing of the earlier post, step one is creating enough CO2 to pressurize the vessel; step two is creating more CO2 to saturate the solution (to a desirable level, of course).

Don't both these actions essentially happen together. You don't get to pressure and then start saturating the beer. Once you reach the final pressure, the liquid is also saturated at the same time.

I often open 'testers' at 5 to 7 days. 30 minutes in the freezer, and they are usually fine. Higher gravity or beers that were left in the fermenter for a while take longer due to lack of yeast or poor yeast health.

 

[specharka]

Not be argumentative about a science issue, but CO2 leaves the solution as it is created until the pressure within the bottle forces it to remain in solution.



To borrow from the phrasing of the earlier post, step one is creating enough CO2 to pressurize the vessel; step two is creating more CO2 to saturate the solution (to a desirable level, of course).

Not to be argumentative about being argumentative, but that's false. Yeasties produce aqueous CO2 (carbonic acid) during fermentation. Subsequent pressurization occurs when CO2 changes state to a gaseous phase.

Otherwise, the pre-bottled beer would be flat.

 

[Terek]

Don't both these actions essentially happen together. You don't get to pressure and then start saturating the beer. Once you reach the final pressure, the liquid is also saturated at the same time.

I often open 'testers' at 5 to 7 days. 30 minutes in the freezer, and they are usually fine. Higher gravity or beers that were left in the fermenter for a while take longer due to lack of yeast or poor yeast health.

this is what i see. im drinking an ipa i bottled 5 days ago. OG was 1052, and its carbed up just fine. I could use a bit more time, as it tastes a bit "green" but carbed. I opened an IIPA that i bottled the same day. OG 1070, its carbed, and has head, but could use a bit more disolved co2 for the mouthfeel.
The 2-3 week rule is more about letting it condition and flesh out the taste. Not so much about carbing.

Temp. has a lot to do wth it as well. Before i had a ferm chamber, it would get up to 70-75 in the closet i used. This was only in the summer, but still. I have had beers that were carbed in 2 days, at this temp. Now i keep em in the ferm chamber at 64 for a week then transfer them to the 58* cellar for long term storage. They are usually carbed up nice when i take them to the cellar

 

[tektonjp]

Not much mention of temperature in this discussion, although it a variable in the equation. The amount of co2 in solution and the amount in the head space move into equalization during the bottling/carbonation phase. It takes some time. And the final amount of co2 (pressure) in the pairing (headspace vs solution) depends on the temperature. Because during the carbing phase, one must rely on the yeast to create more co2, it must be at a warmer temperature than one would drink the beer, so a higher proportion of co2 present will be in gas rather than liquid. When you move the bottle into the fridge before drinking, the co2 in the head space moves slowly back into solution, lowering head pressure and increases co2 volume in the beer. This takes some time, not just 30 minutes in a freezer. Anyone here who kegs will tell you it takes them almost a week to get the head pressure and co2 in suspension into equilibrium.

 

[Calder]

Not much mention of temperature in this discussion, although it a variable in the equation. The amount of co2 in solution and the amount in the head space move into equalization during the bottling/carbonation phase. It takes some time. And the final amount of co2 (pressure) in the pairing (headspace vs solution) depends on the temperature. Because during the carbing phase, one must rely on the yeast to create more co2, it must be at a warmer temperature than one would drink the beer, so a higher proportion of co2 present will be in gas rather than liquid. When you move the bottle into the fridge before drinking, the co2 in the head space moves slowly back into solution, lowering head pressure and increases co2 volume in the beer. This takes some time, not just 30 minutes in a freezer. Anyone here who kegs will tell you it takes them almost a week to get the head pressure and co2 in suspension into equilibrium.

You can't compare bottling to kegging. In the bottle, the CO2 being created is already in solution, and comes out of solution to get to the headspace. In kegging you are trying to get the CO2 into solution thru a relatively small surface area (versus volume)

Agreed, colder temps results in more CO2 being retained in solution, but I suspect (I do not know) the difference between 65 F and 45 F (I don't like my beers too cold) is very small in the amount of CO2 that can be retained in solution. The difference in CO2 in solution between a bottled beer having sat in the freezer for 30 minutes versus the fridge for 5 days is small I suspect - If I'm wrong, I will listen.

 

[Bobby_M]

Not much mention of temperature in this discussion, although it a variable in the equation. The amount of co2 in solution and the amount in the head space move into equalization during the bottling/carbonation phase. It takes some time. And the final amount of co2 (pressure) in the pairing (headspace vs solution) depends on the temperature. Because during the carbing phase, one must rely on the yeast to create more co2, it must be at a warmer temperature than one would drink the beer, so a higher proportion of co2 present will be in gas rather than liquid. When you move the bottle into the fridge before drinking, the co2 in the head space moves slowly back into solution, lowering head pressure and increases co2 volume in the beer. This takes some time, not just 30 minutes in a freezer. Anyone here who kegs will tell you it takes them almost a week to get the head pressure and co2 in suspension into equilibrium.

For every 2 molecules of CO2 created, one stays in the beer and one goes into the headspace and on and on until the sugar is gone. This is very different than force carbing.

 

[tektonjp]

You can't compare bottling to kegging. In the bottle, the CO2 being created is already in solution, and comes out of solution to get to the headspace. In kegging you are trying to get the CO2 into solution thru a relatively small surface area (versus volume)

Agreed, colder temps results in more CO2 being retained in solution, but I suspect (I do not know) the difference between 65 F and 45 F (I don't like my beers too cold) is very small in the amount of CO2 that can be retained in solution. The difference in CO2 in solution between a bottled beer having sat in the freezer for 30 minutes versus the fridge for 5 days is small I suspect - If I'm wrong, I will listen.

A quick look at a carb chart tells me that a 20 degree difference makes a 1 Volume change in co2 at the same pressure. Ever drink a lager at 1.5 Volumes? Not close to one at 2.5V.

As for comparing bottling to kegging, the science tells me it's all about the pressure in solution and the head space equalizing, not the direction you're pushing the gas.

 

[tektonjp]

For every 2 molecules of CO2 created, one stays in the beer and one goes into the headspace and on and on until the sugar is gone. This is very different than force carbing.

How so? A glass of beer with 2.5 volumes of co2 in solution will be the same whether it is poured from a bottle or a tap. What am I missing here? Amount of gas in solution is dependent upon temperature and pressure. One method loads it from outside and another loads it from inside with the help of yeast. But the result is all about pressure, temperature.

 

[Calder]

A quick look at a carb chart tells me that a 20 degree difference makes a 1 Volume change in co2 at the same pressure. Ever drink a lager at 1.5 Volumes? Not close to one at 2.5V.

As for comparing bottling to kegging, the science tells me it's all about the pressure in solution and the head space equalizing, not the direction you're pushing the gas.

The difference in volumes of CO2 for a 20 F difference is closer to 0.3. As the beer/bottle cools, the pressure inside the bottle also goes down, so the retained CO2 is not strictly a temperature effect, but a temperature and pressure effect. Agreed, for the same bottle, the colder one will retain more CO2 in solution, and my 30 minutes in the freezer is insufficient to re-absorb that difference in CO2 back into the liquid.

Bottling vs kegging: As you noted, when the keg is pressurized it takes time for the liquid and gas to get to equilibrium. But with bottling, the CO2 is created in solution, and comes out of solution into the headspace. The two carbonation processes are different. In bottling, the liquid is saturated with CO2 before it moves to the headspace, with kegging it moves the other way around.

 

[tektonjp]

The difference in volumes of CO2 for a 20 F difference is closer to 0.3. As the beer/bottle cools, the pressure inside the bottle also goes down, so the retained CO2 is not strictly a temperature effect, but a temperature and pressure effect. Agreed, for the same bottle, the colder one will retain more CO2 in solution, and my 30 minutes in the freezer is insufficient to re-absorb that difference in CO2 back into the liquid.

Bottling vs kegging: As you noted, when the keg is pressurized it takes time for the liquid and gas to get to equilibrium. But with bottling, the CO2 is created in solution, and comes out of solution into the headspace. The two carbonation processes are different. In bottling, the liquid is saturated with CO2 before it moves to the headspace, with kegging it moves the other way around.

I don't mean to be such a harpy on this. I'm a not a physicist, and I don't mean to spend time on these details. I want to be brewing today! If I'm wrong, so be it. I'll slip out the exit. If you think I'm an a**hat, pardons!

http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php

Across the board, about 1 volume difference when you look at 20 degree difference. Granted, this is labeled a forced carbonation pressure chart (actually, isn't it all "forced" carbonation?), but whether it is canister induced or natural, the result is the same. And once co2 is in solution, the beer will act the same. It doesn't care how the gas got in there. It just knows Henry's Law.

I agree it's a temperature and pressure effect. If one had a pressure gauge on a bottle instead of a bottle cap, you would see the pressure change as you lower the temperature. And as you say, since it is in solution, the change is not instantaneous.

 

[Raenon]

If carbonic acid was maintained nearly perfectly, any actively fermenting wort or must would be carbonated to several volumes of co2.
It's not, however, because that carbonic acid is constantly decomposing back into co2 and water since fermenters seldom are made to hold pressure (outside of commercial or other special circumstances)

When priming and capping, there is a headspace formed which is at one atmosphere of pressure. Until your yeast kick off enough co2 to raise that headspace pressure, you'll continually lose that *potential* carbonation.
Once you create enough backpressure in the headspace, the acid continues to break down, but forces more of the co2 to stay in solution, at an ever escalating equilibrium.
If beer/sparkling wine or even soda were stable with high concentrations of carbonic acid, we'd get no fizz at all.
I don't think it has as much to do with co2 being reabsorbed (at least until the bottle is chilled), it's an issue of headspace pressurization only being the first stage, there is still lots of co2 to be formed to actually carbonate the liquid to the desired equilibrium.
This also explains why too much or too little headspace both cause problems for bottle priming: too much and you are just filling up the air, too little headspace and much of the acid never decomposes into the desired carbonation in the first place.

 

[richl025]

Raenon,

Pretty good explanation, but I might pick just one nit: CO2 can be dissolved in solution WITHOUT forming carbonic acid. Since carbonic acid is a weak acid it exists in an equilibrium with dissolved CO2. I do not know what the dissociation constant is.

 

[specharka]

Raenon,



Pretty good explanation, but I might pick just one nit: CO2 can be dissolved in solution WITHOUT forming carbonic acid. Since carbonic acid is a weak acid it exists in an equilibrium with dissolved CO2. I do not know what the dissociation constant is.

Well, carbonic acid dissociates into bicarbonate and hydrogen ions. AFAIK, there's no such thing as "dissolved CO2" since it doesn't ionize in solution. I could be wrong, but this is what I thought happened...

HCO3-(aq) + H+(aq) <=> H2O(l) + CO2(g)

Phase transfer is a product of molar concentration, head space partial pressure, and temperature.

 

[m00ps]

Were the PET bottles the last of the ones you bottled? Because the last 2 or 3 I do always have excess yeast sediment which seems to cause it to carb and overcarb quickly so I mark them to drink them first

 

[Poppajim]

Were the PET bottles the last of the ones you bottled? Because the last 2 or 3 I do always have excess yeast sediment which seems to cause it to carb and overcarb quickly so I mark them to drink them first

I'm not sure, but I'll keep track next time. I think they were near the start. I chilled a glass bottle on day 5 and drank it on day 7. It was carbed perfectly.

 

[rijnswand]

This also explains why too much or too little headspace both cause problems for bottle priming: too much and you are just filling up the air, too little headspace and much of the acid never decomposes into the desired carbonation in the first place.

I usually leave very little head space (less than an inch) when bottling, and I haven't noticed any problems. The carbonic acid starts to decompose immediately when I open the bottle and pour the beer into a glass. If anything, wouldn't this lack of decomposing (decomposure? decomposition?) be a positive thing? The beer won't go flat as quickly after pouring... You don't really want your beer to decompose in the glass (except to get a nice head), as the "fizz" comes from the beer decomposing in your mouth.

 

[Raenon]

I usually leave very little head space (less than an inch) when bottling, and I haven't noticed any problems. The carbonic acid starts to decompose immediately when I open the bottle and pour the beer into a glass. If anything, wouldn't this lack of decomposing (decomposure? decomposition?) be a positive thing? The beer won't go flat as quickly after pouring... You don't really want your beer to decompose in the glass (except to get a nice head), as the "fizz" comes from the beer decomposing in your mouth.

Except it's likely to leave a bit more carbonic bite as well. Acids are seldom flavorless.

 

[richl025]

Well, carbonic acid dissociates into bicarbonate and hydrogen ions. AFAIK, there's no such thing as "dissolved CO2" since it doesn't ionize in solution. I could be wrong, but this is what I thought happened...

HCO3-(aq) + H+(aq) <=> H2O(l) + CO2(g)

Phase transfer is a product of molar concentration, head space partial pressure, and temperature.

To the best of my recollection*, you are correct as to the equation, but I would point out that something does not need to be ionized to be dissolved in water, it merely needs to have polarity. IIIRC, the molecule is kind of "angled" with the 2 oxygen molecules clustered to one side, giving the CO2 molecule polarity which allows it to be dissolved in water.

Carbonic acid is a chemical compound with the chemical formula H2CO3 (equivalently OC(OH)2). It is also a name sometimes given to solutions of carbon dioxide in water (carbonated water), because such solutions contain small amounts of H2CO3. In physiology, carbonic acid is described as volatile acid or respiratory acid, because it is the only acid excreted as a gas by the lungs.[1]

(emphasis added)



*to be honest, basic chemistry was a long time ago, so I had to go to Wikipedia (aka, the source of all wisdom) to confirm it - the above quote is from that.

 

[govner1]

The solubility of a gas (CO2) is inversely proportional to the temperature of the liquid