Raw Ale / No Boil

[Brewenstein]

So even though it had only been 8 days from brewing this, I couldn't stand it any longer and had to check on it.

So here were my notes:

The OG was 1.043 and the SG now is 1.014. A little higher than I expected, but I did mash at 155-156 degrees. That puts it around 3.7% ABV.

Color - a nice pale straw color, but hazy - like a hefe. Also there is still hop debris floating around in it.

Aroma - can definitely tell that I used centennial hops. Smelled good, nothing sour (not that I thought it would).

Mouthfeel - maybe a little thin, but not off-putting in any way, especially for a low ABV beer.

Taste - light (not in a bad way), definitely get the hops coming through. I used 5 minutes for the boil additions as a way to guestimate the IBUs (based on a previous post), but that is definitely not correct. For the 8 ounces that I used, it would come out to about 55 IBUs, but it was nowhere near that. I would say closer to 30 IBUs. Or to put it another way, the bitterness seemed well balanced against the malt sweetness and right on the money. The beer was neither too sweet or too hoppy. I will say that the hop flavor seemed more "raw" than "cooked", or what hops taste like after being boiled. Not to say that they were bad tasting, just different. I also think that this flavor was heightened due to the amount in suspension. Otherwise I think this will turn out to be a good sessionable drinker.

The flavor seems stable to me, no "green" taste like most of my beers this early in, so I am going to keg it and put it on CO2 and let the cold help drop out the hop particles. I will report back in a week or so and let you know how it is going. So far I would say it has been a success. Not sure yet if I would keep a no boil beer in the rotation, but I will see after it has some time to settle and carb.

Pic to follow.

Last night I just had to try this - couldn't wait the full 2 weeks for carbonation. It's been in my keezer for 5 days on 12 lbs CO2. It poured with a nice, white, tight head and appeared to be carbed well - plenty of bubbles rising up. No more hop debris floating around, just a nice pale straw color. It was hazy, like a hefe, but pleasing to look at (at least to me). Mouthfeel is good - the carbonation seemed to help with that. Very smooth and pleasing - sort of "pillow-y" like the talk in the thread about that mouthfeel. Perhaps it is the proteins that don't coagulate because there is no boil (pure speculation on my part). Malt taste is very good - I don't detect any difference from a boiled beer. Hops still taste different, but good. Again, like the difference between raw vs cooked vegetables. Sort of "juicy" too. The bitterness was spot on and balanced the malt well. Looks like I got lucky going with 8 oz. of hops. And there is no doubt that they are centennial hops.

Overall, it did not seem like a 3.7% ABV beer. Tasted / felt like a 5-6% beer. The head lasted all the way down the glass and left plenty of lacing. I had one with dinner tonight and again was pleased with it.

I'm still not sure if I will keep something like this in a regular rotation, but it definitely has potential for creating a low AVB beer with a pleasing taste and plenty of "drinkability". I will update from time to time as I work my way through the keg and report back on the stability and if the flavor profile changes with time.

 

[Brewenstein]

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1454636511.554650.jpg

And the lacing.
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1454636544.876978.jpg

 

[Tactical-Brewer]

So awesome! I will do this one day soon

 

[Owly055]

I'm very pleased with my first go at no boil no chill, though it really is partial boil due to the use of a 3/4 gallon (approx) hop decoction boil of 15 minutes, which was a success as far as getting excellent hop utilization.

The wort is bubbling away merrily, and in fact was showing very significant fermentation within 2 hours due to a very heavy top crop pitch.

Adding whirlfloc to the hop decoction boil at 5 min was an unqualified success, as the wort dropped clear while cooling.

I seem to have poked a stick in a hornet's nest yesterday with the thread I started on this brew about taking time efficiency to extremes with a 79 minute brew day. Comments were divided between those who were convinced that I must hate brewing to want to brew so fast, those who were convinced I was going to have an infection, those who insisted that this could only result in crap beer, and those who were outraged that I dared to use the word "decoction" to describe my hop decoction. It was all rather entertaining.

My next brew day will be pretty normal with a typical 4.5 gallon brew, but the following one will be a brew day of less than one hour!! With a 10 minute mash, which I've done successfully before, and a decoction boil of 15 minutes, and no chill, I expect to complete a 2.5 gallon all grain brew in under one hour!! I get full conversion in 10 minutes if I do it correctly, but attenuation is a bit below normal. I'll compensate for the reduced fermentability by adding AG300 amylase to the fermenter to break down unfermentable sugars.

I can already hear the howls of outrage when I announce a 52 minute brew day ;-)

H.W.

 

[agrazela]

Oh come on now, there were some who encouraged you and want this to succeed!

(Of course if it sours, those people will go back to hating you, and will hunt you down and boil you in wort.)

 

[squaremile]

That beer above looks amazing! Wow! So glad it turned out well!

Also Owly, I'm doing 60m brews. 10m to heat, 20m mash, 5m drain, 20m hopstand, 5m chill. Totally go for it, made over 30 batches with some variations.

 

[agrazela]

Me three!

Today's brew a 6gal no boil (for my first time) pale ale, 30min mash, 15 min hopstand, cool kettle to 140 in the sink, more hops, then transfer. Just put it in the BmB a few minutes ago to chill in temp chamber, it looks exactly the way any of my previous boiled batches would look at this stage.

And boy was that a fast brew day! This is almost like cheatin'

 

[David_Trucks]

I read this whole thing and maybe I missed it, but, is anybody adding corn sugar to boost the ABV? I like my beers to be a little more potent than 3.whatever %. If so, seems like it'd be best to boil the sugar separately and just add anytime prior to pitching, correct?

 

[joshesmusica]

I read this whole thing and maybe I missed it, but, is anybody adding corn sugar to boost the ABV? I like my beers to be a little more potent than 3.whatever %. If so, seems like it'd be best to boil the sugar separately and just add anytime prior to pitching, correct?

Or just add more grains to the mash? I don't see any reason these have to be 3.whatever%, I think that the main posters in this thread just enjoy them being that low.

 

[agrazela]

I read this whole thing and maybe I missed it, but, is anybody adding corn sugar to boost the ABV? I like my beers to be a little more potent than 3.whatever %. If so, seems like it'd be best to boil the sugar separately and just add anytime prior to pitching, correct?

Mine is shooting for ~5.0-5.5% abv, 30-35 ibu. Full-volume BIAB; 9# pale malt, 0.5# munich, 0.25# C60L, 0.25# wheat malt, mashed 156F for 30min, then drained bag over kettle while raising to 185f (maybe 15min). Stirred in 1g kappa carrageenan dry-blended into 1# cane sugar. 2oz galaxy 180f for 15 min (covered), sink-chill (uncovered) to 140f (took maybe 10min) and add 4oz EXP 6277 at 140f, then everything into the fermenter.

Next morning 64f, dropped quite clear, ready to oxygenate and pitch:

 

[squaremile]

Looks great! Also Yeah, no reason they have to be low ABV, the ibu issue is not a problem with a low ABV no boil beer, but you could prob up the alcohol with sugar or just get some isomerized extract and use that to balance more grains.

 

[dantheman13]

Cool thread! I recently just did a raw ale too. I mash hopped with debittered hops. I poured the first runnings and sparge into a small Vadai 6 gallon barrel, and allowed it to cool over night before pitching Safale T-58. After primary calmed down, which was quick, I topped up the barrel with a gallon of my house solera. Here is a brew day video on youtube if you are bored (sorry for the bad audio/video):

 

[drgonzo2k2]

Well, I just finished up my first no boil brew day, and I have to say, it went so smoothly it honestly felt like cheating a bit. I didn't even have time to get my mash tun cleaned out before it was already time to drain the wort into the fermenter. That was definitely my fastest brew day yet, and I'm really looking forward to tasting the results. The recipe I used is below if anyone else would like to try a Gose this way. It's a little different than the recipe I posted several pages back. Once I let my gravity sample settle out in the test jar it pretty much looked like all the other "regular" beers I'd brewed at that point.

FYI - This is actually a 6 gallon (fermenter volume) recipe. Due to the way Brewer's Friend works with no boils, to get the math right you need to setup the recipe targeting your fermenter volume, figure out your "boil volume" then switch it back to targeting kettle volume, and set both your batch size and boil size to the same. Then the math works out right. It's a little wonky, but it works!

Title: Gose Before Hoes

Brew Method: All Grain
Style Name: Gose
Boil Time: 0 min
Batch Size: 6.63 gallons (ending kettle volume)
Boil Size: 6.63 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.049
Efficiency: 75% (ending kettle)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.049
Final Gravity: 1.011
ABV (standard): 4.96%
IBU (tinseth): 0
SRM (morey): 3.9

FERMENTABLES:
5.4 lb - American - Pale 2-Row (45.4%)
5.4 lb - American - White Wheat (45.4%)
0.6 lb - German - Acidulated Malt (5%)
0.5 lb - Rice Hulls (4.2%)

HOPS:
3 oz - Nelson Sauvin, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Dry Hop for 5 days

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Infusion, Temp: 149 F, Time: 60 min, Amount: 4.5 gal, Single Infusion @149
2) Sparge, Temp: 168 F, Time: 15 min, Vorlauf, Batch Sparge
Starting Mash Thickness: 1.5 qt/lb

OTHER INGREDIENTS:
1 each - Whirlfloc, Type: Fining, Use: Boil
28 g - Ground Corriander Seed, Type: Spice, Use: Boil
21 g - Sea Salt, Type: Spice, Use: Boil
28 g - Lime Zest, Type: Flavor, Use: Kegging
28 g - Orange Zest, Type: Flavor, Use: Kegging
4 oz - Lime Juice, Type: Flavor, Use: Kegging
4 oz - Orange Juice, Type: Flavor, Use: Kegging

YEAST:
White Labs - German Ale/ Kölsch Yeast WLP029
Starter: Yes
Form: Liquid
Attenuation (avg): 75%
Flocculation: Medium
Optimum Temp: 65 - 69 F
Fermentation Temp: 58 F
Pitch Rate: 0.75 (M cells / ml / deg P)
Additional Yeast: Swansons L. Plantarum capsules

TARGET WATER PROFILE:
Profile Name: Pilsen (Light Lager)
Ca2: 7
Mg2: 3
Na: 2
Cl: 5
SO4: 5
HCO3: 25
Water Notes:

NOTES:
- Start by conditioning grain with 3.6 oz RO water (by weight), mix well, and allow to sit for 10 minutes prior to grinding.

- Mash and sparge as usual and collect runnings into boil kettle.

- Heat wort to 180F then add hops, Whirlfloc, Corrainder, and Sea salt.

- Cool to 95F and then transfer to fermenter. Pitch 6 Swansons L. Plantarum capsules and allow to sour for 2 days.

- Cool to 58F and then pitch 2L starter of WLP029.

- Ferment at 58 degrees for 5 days, then ramp temp to 68 degrees for 2 more days.

- Dry hop at 65F for 5 days.

- Then cold crash @ 33 degrees for 2 days prior to kegging, fining with gelatin once beer drops below 50 degrees.

- Add lime and orange juice and zest to keg prior to packaging.

 

[David_Trucks]

I'm hoping to use this method tomorrow. I'm wondering though- does anyone no chill with this raw ale method? I typically no chill regularly and do not have issues. I'm thinking the biggest worry would be infection. How long you suppose it would take to bring the temp from 170 down to 140 using no chill?

 

[squaremile]

I'm hoping to use this method tomorrow. I'm wondering though- does anyone no chill with this raw ale method? I typically no chill regularly and do not have issues. I'm thinking the biggest worry would be infection. How long you suppose it would take to bring the temp from 170 down to 140 using no chill?

Ive done no chill about 5 times with no boil. 4 times fine, one time not. If you are making a hoppy beer and no chill, you really need to use Whirlfloc to avoid a very unpleasant beer (my one miss). I've gotten away with no WF while chilling and it's fine. Otherwise go for it.

 

[David_Trucks]

Ive done no chill about 5 times with no boil. 4 times fine, one time not. If you are making a hoppy beer and no chill, you really need to use Whirlfloc to avoid a very unpleasant beer (my one miss). I've gotten away with no WF while chilling and it's fine. Otherwise go for it.

Ok thanks. It will be hoppy- probably about 7 ounces for 4 gallons. I remember reading your post at one point about something going wrong without WF. What was it exactly? Unexpected bitterness?

 

[David_Trucks]

Also, I can't decide if I should call it "Raw Dog" or "No boil and chill"

 

[hobomoto]

Its spelled "raw dawg," and, yes, you should definately call it that lol.

 

[Stillraining]

Interesting thread just read the whole thing.. Only issue is see is the cost of all the additional hops needed..Seems to offset or even reverse any money saved in the heating Energy needed for a boil. I'm at 3 hours or less now for a traditional brew day so I can see cutting maybe 45 min off with the no boil..3.00 of propane savings maybe is all .
Might have to give this a try though as I don't like hoppy beers anyway.

Carry on...as its one of the more interesting reads I have ever had on this forum.

 

[ghohn]

If you buy hops in bulk and don't use the super expensive ones, I'd say you are still winning (even on hoppy beers)


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[agrazela]

If you buy hops in bulk and don't use the super expensive ones, I'd say you are still winning (even on hoppy beers)


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If you add more hops to your beer in general, I'd say you are winning! :fro:

But seriously, I'm at the point where in hoppy brews I'm already adding large quantities of hops, and the vast, vast majority of them after flameout anyway. So what's an extra couple ounces of good flavorful hops--especially perhaps some of these newer super-high IBU NZ/Aus hops--versus an ounce of "typical" bittering hop?

I'll tell ya mate: a few pennies a pint, and a ton more AWESOMENESS!!!

 

[masonsjax]

I haven't read the entire thread, so apologies if this has been covered already. I would (and have) use a paint strainer, hop spider, whatever for the hop stand and then use those hops as a bittering addition on another batch. It works pretty well and makes me feel better about using more late hops. Any hops that were used post boil could be potentially reused for bittering.

 

[slym2none]

Do you brew back-to-back batches? If not, how are you storing them?

I am honestly curious.

 

[masonsjax]

I often do back to back brews, but have also just squeezed out the hop bag, throw the whole thing in a zip lock freezer bag and put it in the fridge for a couple of days or the freezer for longer.

 

[David_Trucks]

Alright, so I went ahead and did a no boil brew today. So far, so good. It was nice to be done sooner than normal and the sample actually tasted similar in bitterness to my other IPAs.

I put in an oz of summit (after mash) and turned on the gas. It got to 180 before I realized it. No problem, tho, cooled to ~ 160 and added 4 more oz of high bitterness hops (summit, chinook) and whirlpools for a bit.

I didn't have Whirlfloc so I just used Irish moss. Not sure how much it helped, but again, the sample was very tasty.



I plan to pitch my starter tomorrow morning (I'm a no chill brewer).
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1455594490.498980.jpg

 

[drgonzo2k2]

Please keep us posted....... I love to experiment!! Keep it up!

H.W.

Hey, so I got the Kombucha Kriek kegged and carbed up yesterday, and I have to say I was actually pretty impressed with the results. It's definitely not the same as an actual Kriek beer, but for something you can whip up in your kitchen and be drinking in just a couple of weeks it's pretty darn good. It's nice and tart with almost a maraschino cherry sort of after taste. I carbed it to 2.4 volumes just like I would an ale, but since it can't really hold much of a head it dissipates pretty quickly, almost like a champagne.

 

[slym2none]

I often do back to back brews, but have also just squeezed out the hop bag, throw the whole thing in a zip lock freezer bag and put it in the fridge for a couple of days or the freezer for longer.

Nice! Thanks for the info.

 

[Owly055]

I will be starting my 45 minute record attempt (for me) in 5 minutes 5:30 PM

This is a 20 minute mash, in which I will pull 1 qt of wort during the mash for a hop decoction at 10 minutes for a 10 minute boil..... Oops gotta go!

5:42: I'm in mash range (145-155) all my equipment is out, and hop additions measured, grain pot returned to the shed where I keep my grain 12 minutes elapsed time. I dug the hops out of the freezer and measured them while the mash was heating, between stirring. The colander is out and ready to use.

Temp cranked back to slow rise ( 1 deg per 2 minutes), and 1 tsp powdered amylase added to the mash, stirring frequently, fiddling with flame to target 150 by 5:52 when I remove the decoction. And I have time to write!!

5:49: Just poured myself a beer between stirring and writing, and added hops to the pot for the decoction... why wait?

5:52: Just pulled the decoction and put it on high heat on the back burner. 22 minutes elapsed time decoction is quite grain rich, so it really IS a decoction.

5:56: Monitoring conversion and stirring both pots Brix 9

5:57: Decoction at full boil

5:59 Mash temp 154, turned flame down a touch checked conversion brix 9.5

6:00 gravity 1.040, target 1.044

6:02: continuing mash beyond 20 minute target time

6:04: Mash conversion stabilized, bag was lifted and put into colander to drain while heat was turned
to high

6:10: bag is drained and wort has hit 165 pasteurization temp

6:14: Process and clean up / put away completed grain bag in washing machine, etc, pot
covered and set where it will remain until tomorrow when I pitch yeast. I'm doing
primary in the brew kettle for a couple of reasons. partly time saving, partly to give
me an additional clarification stage, and partly because the fermenter I intend to use
is sitting in starsan because of a lacto infection, and another week won't hurt a thing.


Elapsed time 44 minutes!!

Note that I got behind on my writing toward the end when many things were going on. I just had time to scribble times. Now I'm sitting here congratulating myself and sipping a brew and looking at what I could have done differently.

#1: I will crush my grain a bit finer.... conversion took longer than I expected, but I had nearly 50% munich 10.... which is why I use the amylase

#2: I will look at how I can remove my decoction liquid without as much grain

Other than that, everything went completely according to plan. Here is the brew recipe, which I changed on the fly due to not as much Mosaic as I planned.... I didn't feel like opening a new half pound package for this:

45 minute Mosaic Speed Brew

OG actual 1.046
IBU 40.5
SRM 18
estimated ABV 4.5 % taking into account short mash

2.5 gallon brew
2 pounds each of wheat and Munich 10, and 2 ounces midnight wheat
1 ounce each of Nugget and Mosaic boiled 10 minutes
1 ounce of Chinook whirlpool

This should be a punchy hop bursted brew right on the low end of the IPA range, with a medley of fruit and spice. The wort has exactly the rich red color I had hoped for due to the 2 ounces of Midnight Wheat. It should be a nice lower gravity beer, with some decent body and lots of flavor.

Note that next time I probably will use two row instead of wheat.

The results will be in within about 3 weeks, and the proof will be in the pudding... or rather the beer. Needless to say this was a mad rush toward the end, and I have no intention of going to this extreme with every brew. This was done to see if I could hit the 45 minute target, and to demonstrate that a decent all grain brew can be accomplished in well under one hour. I've spent the last week refining my process plan, and I printed out a schedule, and followed it closely. A major part of the time efficiency was organization. Everything I use to brew is very close to the kitchen stove, and I know exactly what I need. It also entails doing a few things in parallel, such as measuring hops while I am running water, getting things out while heating and mashing, and running my decoction during the latter portion of the mash. I look forward to taking an FG reading.

H.W.


This bit added Sunday AM: I pitched the yeast, a process that takes so little time it is not worth counting....... less than a minute to lift the lid and toss the yeast in

Note that brewhouse efficiency is showing about 75%. Typically I hit over 80% with the boil off of a 30 minute boil, and a bit higher when I sparge. I consider 75% completely acceptable for what I'm doing.

Note also that I discovered this morning with a spur of the moment experiment, that my 1500 watt hot plate turned to max is gives almost exactly the temp rise rate I want using water in the same quantity as my mash volume.... actually slightly less...... for a 20 minute mash with as temp rise from 145 to 155 during the mash. This means that I have a fairly precise heating rate without having to fiddle with the flame. Next time, I will start a couple of degrees hotter........ say 147, lift it off the stove, and onto the hot plate, which will reduce the workload of occasionally stirring and fiddling with the flame to keep the rise rate where I want it, the one aspect of my "inline mash" that is irritating.

H.W.

 

[squaremile]

Wow! This was really cool to read! That is very similar to my process but my time goes up due to a longer whirlpool.

 

[Owly055]

Wow! This was really cool to read! That is very similar to my process but my time goes up due to a longer whirlpool.

Your definition of "whirlpool" is different from mine. Mine is really a "hop stand". I just toss the hops in, and consider the whirlpool done as the wort is cooling very slowly at that point. As I use pellet hops, I just leave them in, so the whirlpool is not a distinct step, but is happening as the wort is slowly cooling. My kettle is laminated stainless and pretty heavy so it cools quite slowly. I figure tossing my hops in at 165 as the wort is cooling is the equivalent of a 160F whirlpool for about 15 minutes.......just as wild ass guess. I've never worried too much about maintaining a precise temp of say 160F for 15 minutes for whirlpool...... 160 was the entry point. Does that make sense? When I was using a chiller, I simply stopped the flow at about 165 and tossed my whirlpool addition considering the fact the the residual cooling would quickly bring the temp down to 160. I absolutely will not remove the chiller at this temp and return it due to contamination concerns. If a person were using a RIMS system with a pump, you could maintain a whirlpool temp exactly, but for the rest of us it is pretty imprecise.

H.W.

 

[squaremile]

Yeah that's what I do actually, I throw them in at 170, then stir every 10m until I decide to chill it down.

 

[ghohn]

I do the same as square mile does in the previous post. I've gone to a hop spider type device (just a finely woven laundry bag) to serve two functions; recover wort from the hop sponge + keep my keg poppers clear of the green stuff (keg ferment).


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[Owly055]

My hop decoction in both my no boil / no chill brews has worked out very well. Not only does it allow me to get good hop utilization, but allows the whirlfloc to do it's job. I was broadly attacked for calling it a decoction the first go around, but this time I scooped both wort and grain (about a quart) from my mash and boiled it with the hops....... It was easier, but I ended up with a thicker decoction than I wanted. I need to come up with a scoop that filters out most of the grain.
In this process it added zero time to do the 10 minute boil of one quart, and very little energy..... actually none, as the heat was used to help raise the mash to pasteurization temp. It's a side process that makes sense to me as there really is no penalty and significant benefit. It could be said that it is no longer a no boil process, but that would be pretty nit picky, as only about 10% of the wort is boiled.

H.W.

 

[Brewenstein]

My hop decoction in both my no boil / no chill brews has worked out very well. Not only does it allow me to get good hop utilization, but allows the whirlfloc to do it's job. I was broadly attacked for calling it a decoction the first go around, but this time I scooped both wort and grain (about a quart) from my mash and boiled it with the hops....... It was easier, but I ended up with a thicker decoction than I wanted. I need to come up with a scoop that filters out most of the grain.
In this process it added zero time to do the 10 minute boil of one quart, and very little energy..... actually none, as the heat was used to help raise the mash to pasteurization temp. It's a side process that makes sense to me as there really is no penalty and significant benefit. It could be said that it is no longer a no boil process, but that would be pretty nit picky, as only about 10% of the wort is boiled.

H.W.

Thanks for the update. I was following the other thread and was irritated when it got shut down.

I didn't think there was anything that bad about the bickering that got that thread locked, but whatever. I guess you in-and-of yourself are just too controversial for most.

 

[drgonzo2k2]

Regardless of what happened in other threads, let's really try to keep this one on topic as it is very informative, and I would like to keep contributing to it

 

[squaremile]

Just kegged/carbed my 10th and 11th no boil beers. Both totally clean, no off flavors, one is a touch on the bitter side for the gravity and style. I have now made 11 of these, 1 was infected with lacto I believe from a compromised better bottle that also damaged a boiled beer, all others have been clean. I thought one batch with pils malt had DMS, but I only got it in one bottle and may have really been oxidation. I haven't tasted any older than 2m, so not sure about long term stability. I have done both chill and no chill with positive results. Whirlfloc is a must especially for no chill, but one chilled beer without Whirlfloc was great but hazy. At this point I personally have enough info to accept doing just a mash and a pasteurization rest as a valid way to make clean ales that do not have a discernable "no boil" character.

 

[Owly055]

Regardless of what happened in other threads, let's really try to keep this one on topic as it is very informative, and I would like to keep contributing to it

Perhaps in the interest of keeping it going, I should refrain from posting ;-)


H.W.

 

[ghohn]

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[ghohn]

just a mash and a pasteurization rest

What temp is everyone doing their pasteurization rests at? I do 75c but haven't been brave enough to go any lower.


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[ghohn]

just a mash and a pasteurization rest

What temp is everyone doing their pasteurization rests at? I do 75c but haven't been brave enough to go any lower.




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