Raw Ale / No Boil

[Tactical-Brewer]

I'd be curious about a no boil stout as well!

Side note, @aprichman, is the campden tab mainly there for chlorine or to kill the yeast? Sorry if it's a stupid question, just never seen it in a beer recipe yet.

 

[Tactical-Brewer]

I'd be curious to see how a no boil stout works as well!

Side note, aprichman, is the campden tab there for the chlorine or bacteria, yeast? Sorry if it's a stupid question, just haven't seen it in a beer recipe yet.

 

[aprichman]

I'd be curious to see how a no boil stout works as well!

Side note, aprichman, is the campden tab there for the chlorine or bacteria, yeast? Sorry if it's a stupid question, just haven't seen it in a beer recipe yet.

I toss a 1/2 tab into my HLT (a 5.5 gallon batch usually starts with around 9-10 gallons of water for me) to treat my water for chloramines. Lately I've been treating my water as a precaution even though I usually only use RO water and build my water profile via salts. This time I got lazy and used some store bought spring water to up the mineral content since I didn't have the exact salts I needed and I had to get ready to leave town for a couple of weeks. I was in a bit of a rush to get this beer brewed and put into my fermentation chamber before I left town.

My approach is that treating the water in the HLT is good practice since I can't verify if the spring water or even the RO water contains low levels of chloramines. Even at low levels chloramines can lead to some nasty off flavors that can ruin a good beer. Treating for chloramines in this way takes the guesswork out of it and I never have to worry about it being a problem.

It's a bit cautious of an approach, but I have a ton of campden tabs (they're really cheap) and since I'm planning on using city water with a filter like this I just started adding it to my brewing routine one day.

Would be interested to see your results @SuckaMooHudda if you decide to make this no boil or not

 

[Tactical-Brewer]

Awesome on the Campden Tabs. My girlfriend makes a bunch of wine so I'm sure I've got them available. I may just have to start as well since I'm using city water.

 

[ghohn]

I started no-boil in an effort to go full-retard on the brewing process. Here's an outline of my process:

1: Collect 51L (for my high 2% session beers) of carbon filtered water the night before, treat with campden also. Sitting overnight allows the currently frigid tap water to come up to room temp/off gas.

2. Move all 51L (full volume mash) into my mashtun. Heat within the mashtun with an immersion element 4.5c hotter than desired mash temp. Stir in grain. Mash for 30 minutes.

3. Lauter into kettle. Collect 45L~ish of wort. Bring to 76c. Hopsteep w/ 8oz of hops for 30 mins. Add whifloc.

4. Remove hopsack. Squeeze the sack. Immersion chiller down to pitching temperature. Recover immersion chiller hot water to clean other stuff + make an appropriately tempered water bath for kegs to ferment in for later.

5. Whirlpool like an SOB and let it sit for 30 minutes while you prep your empty kegs.

6. Pour my yeast starters into each keg then transfer wort into kegs and replenish yeast starters.

7. Add fermcap-S to each keg, set lid with 30 psi, purge 30 psi, connect spunding valve.

8. Ferment.

9. Night before putting keg into kegerator, lay keg outside on its side so that a majority of the smegma collects on the side. Carefully move into kegerator & start drankin'.

 

[skw]

I just stumbled over this thread, and this sounds like something I have to do. I am tempted however to try a post-fermentation boil, similar to this, except with more or less regular hop additions. Together with a high mash temperature, this may be a way of creating full flavored, low-alcohol beer.

 

[squaremile]

Wow I hadn't seen anything like that before! I'm guessing oxidation would be an issue, but there's lots of unique profiles you can prob develop with that combo!

 

[squaremile]

@ghohn, our processes are really similar. I mash for 20m, and just throw the hops in, but otherwise pretty close.

 

[slym2none]

Holy cow! 14 Days? I guess with kegging that's more of a possibility than with bottles, right?

I won't be doing any kegging for a long time, but I need to get a brew I can consistently have in the pipeline that's ready to drink in about 4 weeks time bottled. maybe a light pale ale or something. Gonna try raw in my next brew.

I have a Centennial Blonde that was still a little green at 1 week in the bottle, but I imagine at week 2, it will be fine.

A lot of beers are "ready" at 4 weeks in the bottle... sometimes even if they call for more conditioning time. I had a stout that was wonderful at 2 weeks that called for 6 months conditioning. It might be better at 6 months, but it was great at 2 weeks!

:fro:

 

[ghohn]

@ghohn, our processes are really similar. I mash for 20m, and just throw the hops in, but otherwise pretty close.

So you collect your runnings with no further heating right?

 

[Owly055]

All I can say is WOW!! I just stumbled onto this thread today. I'm an unrepentant iconoclast, mercilessly challenging convention at every opportunity, so this appeals to me greatly. I've never moved beyond BIAB, because I see the only benefit to conventional brewing is the filter effect of the grain bed...... and that at the cost of time and potential stuck sparges. I never boil longer than 30 minutes anymore as I see absolutely no benefit for me, I hop pretty heavily anyway...... Is it worth boiling an additional 30 minutes to save a quarter ounce of hops??? I mash either 20-30 minutes or all afternoon while I'm at work..........and see very little difference in the result, probably because beta amylase has a very short life before being denatured at my typical 152 mash temp.
For me the issue is time........ I like to brew weekly, but don't want it to be a 4 hour process. Actual time expended per brew if I go straight through start to finish is about 2.5 hours for me..........I can't beat that much. NO boil takes it to another level.

I propose doing a "hop boil" in a mason jar (sealed) during the mash, using only water, or some DME. This would be strictly for bittering. I have done this and it does work. I forget exactly why, but it was part of another exbeeriment.


H.W.

 

[Owly055]

The next step is obviously to eliminate the mash and boil altogether, and brew like rice wine / saki, where the fermentation and mashing takes place at the same time, doing a hop boil in a sealed mason jar, and adding it at some point. I have both "Chinese yeast balls", and a half liter of AG300 (fungal amylase), intended to be added to the fermenter. Gelatinization temps would need to be reached, it could include both malted and/or unmalted grains, raw out of the field or lightly kilned.....or not so lightly. There really are no "rules" for brewing, just traditions.


H.W.

 

[Tactical-Brewer]

He possibilities are definitely crazy to think about

 

[helibrewer]

If there is concern for hop utilization, you can use isomerizd hop extract. Hop extract works great for bittering.

 

[ArcLight]

If there is concern for hop utilization, you can use isomerizd hop extract. Hop extract works great for bittering.

But not for hop flavor. And will it have the same antimicrobial properties that regular hopping does?

The next step is obviously to eliminate the mash and boil altogether, and brew like rice wine / saki, where the fermentation and mashing takes place at the same time, doing a hop boil in a sealed mason jar, and adding it at some point. I have both "Chinese yeast balls", and a half liter of AG300 (fungal amylase), intended to be added to the fermenter. Gelatinization temps would need to be reached, it could include both malted and/or unmalted grains, raw out of the field or lightly kilned.....or not so lightly. There really are no "rules" for brewing, just traditions.

Barley is covered with Lacto and possibly other microbes. Unless you kill them, chances are the bacteria will create off flavors.
At least 152 for 30+ minutes has a good chance of killing most microbes. And if you mash out at >160 for a few minutes, you are even more likely to be safe.

 

[Tactical-Brewer]

So you could mash at 152 for your regular 60 minutes if you chose, and then sparge @ 168 and be set correct?

 

[keggert]

Working in the food industry I'd say you would have to get the entire wort above 161 for it to be pasteurized

 

[agrazela]

I see lots of possibilities.

I've already adopted BIAB and no-chill (or "partial-chill" I like to call it, just dunking the kettle into a utility sink of cold water to <140°F before transferring to the carboy). I'm still pot-on-a-stovetop, and it does take me a long time--even when also using a 120v heat stick--to get my 5-6gallons of wort to boiling. So I'd love to see the boil step removed, it'd easily save me 90min (or more) on a brewday, plus of course energy costs.

Whirlfloc (or kappa carrageenan) after the mashout and gelatin fining (if necessary) for clarity in styles that need it, and I guess using somewhat darker base grains (Maris Otter, Briess Ashburne Mild) to minimize DMS...I could see this working for less-than-dark styles.

Obviously you're not boiling off water, so that is going to limit you somewhat in terms of achievable gravity all-grain...but I suppose you could add back extract, maybe a little adjunct sugar--maybe mash-out a little higher temp (185°F?) to compensate for the cooling when you add those in after pulling the bag? There's also a little trick I like to call "fake decoction" where I'll do a "side boil" of about 1gal of the full-volume mash in a smaller pot while the mash commences in the big kettle, the stovetop can do that easily during the 45-60min mash, and I can lose ~2-3qts of water AND develop some of that kettle color / flavor (as long as mash pH is good, never had a tannin problem doing this). In any case, I see no reason you couldn't get OG's up to the mid-1.050's with ~70-75% mash efficiency even without a boil, and with little to no adjunct. Maybe the mid-1.060's+ with some extract/sugars.

In my experience, I can believe that your typical "hopstand" hops (added, say at ~180°F for ~15min before chilling) give you bitterness at about the equivalent of 5min of boiling as per the calculators. I also can believe that hops added at ~140°F for the duration of the "no-chill (i.e., for me, the time between carboy transfer and when it cools enough in the ferm fridge to pitch, typically 16-24hrs) gives you bitterness at about the equivalent of about 2min boiling as per the calculators. So I can easily see where you could get Pale Ale levels of bittering (30-40 IBU) from reasonable amounts of reasonable-AA% hops. I don't know that you'd be able to achieve IPA IBU levels, although I guess with enough super-AA hops, maybe. I guess you could also put some bittering hops in the "side boil." I've tried pre-isomerized alpha extracts and I do not like them...the bittering is IMO not as much as claimed, and they always add a weird "soapy" taste. But HopShots I do like...again, maybe in the side-boil mash? Maybe in a side-boil of just sugar water? I don't suppose there's any reason you couldn't do an IPA with this method.

And speaking of a side-boil, if you've got some ingredients you'd really like to make sure get sterilized (maybe lactose, maybe spices, maybe cocoa powder or PB2 or citrus zest or whatever), or that maybe need some gelatinization (steel cut oats, flaked corn, whatever) I don't see any reason you couldn't side-boil those. No reason I couldn't make my mocha café oatmeal milk stout or my grapefruit IPA with this method.

And if it really does help with head retention (and body?) then bye-bye bits of CaraPils and wheat malts? Single-malt might be easier to pull off.

Been looking for a new process modification, I'm so going to try this.

 

[user 204491]

Funny, but after reading through this whole thread and lots of similar ones on the MTF group, and I'm all in to try this method as well. I'm going to start by using it for quick-turn sours and see how it goes. Here's a recipe I threw together in Brewer's friend. Love to hear any feedback or suggestions.

----------------------------

Title: Gose Before Hoes

Brew Method: All Grain
Style Name: Gose
Boil Time: 0 min
Batch Size: 6 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 6.76 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.048
Efficiency: 75% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.054*
Final Gravity: 1.012
ABV (standard): 5.48%
IBU (tinseth): 9.36
SRM (morey): 4.17

FERMENTABLES:
5.4 lb - American - Pale 2-Row (45.4%)
5.4 lb - American - White Wheat (45.4%)
0.6 lb - German - Acidulated Malt (5%)
0.5 lb - Rice Hulls (4.2%)

HOPS:
3 oz - Nelson Sauvin, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Whirlpool for 5 min at 180 °F, IBU: 9.36**

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Infusion, Temp: 149 F, Time: 60 min, Amount: 4.5 gal, Single Infusion @149
2) Sparge, Temp: 168 F, Time: 15 min, Vorlauf, Batch Sparge
Starting Mash Thickness: 1.5 qt/lb

OTHER INGREDIENTS:
1 each - Whirlfloc, Type: Fining, Use: Boil
28 g - Ground Corriander Seed, Type: Spice, Use: Boil
21 g - Sea Salt, Type: Spice, Use: Boil
28 g - Lime Zest, Type: Flavor, Use: Kegging
28 g - Orange Zest, Type: Flavor, Use: Kegging
4 oz - Lime Juice, Type: Flavor, Use: Kegging
4 oz - Orange Juice, Type: Flavor, Use: Kegging

YEAST:
White Labs - German Ale/ Kölsch Yeast WLP029
Starter: Yes
Form: Liquid
Attenuation (avg): 75%
Flocculation: Medium
Optimum Temp: 65 - 69 F
Fermentation Temp: 58 F
Pitch Rate: 0.75 (M cells / ml / deg P)
Additional Yeast: Swansons L. Plantarum capsules

TARGET WATER PROFILE:
Profile Name: Pilsen (Light Lager)
Ca2: 7
Mg2: 3
Na: 2
Cl: 5
SO4: 5
HCO3: 25
Water Notes:

NOTES:
- Make 1L 1.04 OG starter 4 days prior to brew day with 8 Swansons L. Plantarum capsules.

- Start by conditioning grain with 3.6 oz RO water (by weight), mix well, and allow to sit for 10 minutes prior to grinding.

- Mash and sparge as usual and collect runnings into boil kettle.

- Heat wort to 180F then add hops, Whirlfloc, Corrainder, and Sea salt.

- Cool to 95F and then transfer to fermenter. Pitch lacto starter, allow to cool to ambient and sour for 2 days.

- Cool to 58F and then pitch 2L starter of WLP029.

- Ferment at 58 degrees for 5 days, then ramp temp to 68 degrees for 2 more days.

- Then cold crash @ 33 degrees for 2 days prior to kegging, fining with gelatin once beer drops below 50 degrees.

- Add lime and orange juice and zest to keg prior to packaging.

----------------------------

*For whatever reason, even if you enter a 0 minute boil in Brewer's Friend, it still shows a difference between Boil Gravity and OG, so I'll just manually adjust it to:

Original Gravity: 1.048
Final Gravity: 1.012
ABV (standard): 4.73%

**This is a total shot in the dark, but I'm going to start the whirlpool at 180 and then quickly chill to 95 to pitch the lacto, so it should only be in the alpha acid isomerization range (> 170F) for a couple of minutes. I guesstimated something like 2% utilization here as opposed to the normal 5-10% I'd use for a regular hop stand.

 

[squaremile]

I think this is an awesome method for sour beers, please let us know how it turns out! Also where did you see this on Milk the Funk? I'm on there but don't follow too closely.

 

[user 204491]

Hey, yeah, I've got high hopes that this will work out better than kettle souring for these sorts of low ABV tart beers. I was actually thinking about trying a no-boil version of the popular Liberty Peach Berliner Weisse.

Since MTF is a closed group, I'm not really sure how to post specific links here; however I've only known about the group a couple of months or so, and since I've joined there have been lots of posts about folks using the probiotics for their unique Lacto strains to do "quick turn" sours. The Swansons L. Plantarum seem to be a particular favorite as they produce a nice tartness and work well at room temps, which is why you'll notice there's no holding the beer at 100+ for 2 days in this recipe. Particularly in the last couple of weeks there have been a few guys posting about their no-boil sours using probiotics. So I just started asking questions and threw this recipe together.

 

[bovineblitz]

Anyone have any thoughts on if your wort hits ~185 for 5 minutes or so? DMS a concern?

 

[squaremile]

I'd go for it and check your results and let us know. My own experience would say there should be no concerns of perceivable DMS if you do that.

 

[squaremile]

I just kegged my mash hop and dry hop only, no boil, no chill beer. Based on the sample I drew it is definitely lacking in hop character all around, and the sample I drew before the mash hopping was really really mild in hop presence. I'm not going to use mash hopping technique again based on this in case anyone is thinking of doing this down the road.

 

[user 204491]

I just kegged my mash hop and dry hop only, no boil, no chill beer. Based on the sample I drew it is definitely lacking in hop character all around, and the sample I drew before the mash hopping was really really mild in hop presence. I'm not going to use mash hopping technique again based on this in case anyone is thinking of doing this down the road.

Are you able to do a whirlpool for your hop additions? That's what I'd planned to do for the no boil gose recipe I posted a while back (brew day Feb 14th).

 

[bovineblitz]

I'd go for it and check your results and let us know. My own experience would say there should be no concerns of perceivable DMS if you do that.

No notes of DMS in the wort sample (or the hot toddy) I tasted, seemed pretty normal. It's a semi-spontaneous sour, so it'll be a while before I can taste it, but I think it'll be okay.

 

[user 204491]

No notes of DMS in the wort sample (or the hot toddy) I tasted, seemed pretty normal. It's a semi-spontaneous sour, so it'll be a while before I can taste it, but I think it'll be okay.

Nice, sounds like you'll have a very nice "traditional" farmhouse type of thing going on there. Interested in hearing the results.

 

[bovineblitz]

Nice, sounds like you'll have a very nice "traditional" farmhouse type of thing going on there. Interested in hearing the results.

Yeah sorta, it's got 13% Munich II, a touch of oats, bit of maltodextrine, and a little midnight wheat for color. It's a sort of evolution of an all Munich I oak aged sour I did a bit ago, the oak is getting transferred in after the spontaneous bugs get a bit of a hold and that's all it's going to get. I was reading recently that raw sours seem to suffer no shelf-life issues, presumably because the bugs can 'spoil' the beer in a good way.

Edit: Just read your quick sour plan. Looks good, I'd just add that you may need to add salt at bottling to taste, and I think it's a good idea to give the zest a couple days in the fermenter so the oils infuse the whole beer, or even better soak it in vodka so it's already in solution/sanitized. Also be careful with adding a lot of orange juice, it can taste pretty weird when fermented.

 

[user 204491]

Yeah sorta, it's got 13% Munich II, a touch of oats, bit of maltodextrine, and a little midnight wheat for color. It's a sort of evolution of an all Munich I oak aged sour I did a bit ago, the oak is getting transferred in after the spontaneous bugs get a bit of a hold and that's all it's going to get. I was reading recently that raw sours seem to suffer no shelf-life issues, presumably because the bugs can 'spoil' the beer in a good way.

Edit: Just read your quick sour plan. Looks good, I'd just add that you may need to add salt at bottling to taste, and I think it's a good idea to give the zest a couple days in the fermenter so the oils infuse the whole beer, or even better soak it in vodka so it's already in solution/sanitized. Also be careful with adding a lot of orange juice, it can taste pretty weird when fermented.

Hey, thanks! Between this and the Solera thread I'm starting to think we're kindred brewing spirits

If you didn't catch it in the recipe both the zest and juice will be added only at kegging, so hopefully no further fermentation and plenty of time for everything to meld together in the keg.

As far as the salt goes I figured I'd start low with this recipe, see how I like it, and then can increase or decrease the next go around.

 

[bovineblitz]

Hey, thanks! Between this and the Solera thread I'm starting to think we're kindred brewing spirits

If you didn't catch it in the recipe both the zest and juice will be added only at kegging, so hopefully no further fermentation and plenty of time for everything to meld together in the keg.

As far as the salt goes I figured I'd start low with this recipe, see how I like it, and then can increase or decrease the next go around.

Haha yeah, definitely seems like we're on the same wavelength. Gotcha, that sounds good. Def share the results!