Rapid loss of hop aroma (again)

[Ninoid]

Aeration of hot wort is different from aeration of the cold wort pre-pitch. There's some evidence that dissolved oxygen can have an impact on the mash and oxygenate compounds there. John Palmer says any oxygenation of wort over 80 degrees can impact compounds in the wort that eventually lead to staling. And to Ninoid's point about the boil driving off oxygen, that's only true for dissolved oxygen that's still in solution. It won't reverse oxygenated compounds created by DO in the mash.

I think everyone agrees that hot-side aeration isn't nearly as harmful to beer as cold-side aeration, and homebrewers should focus first on getting oxygen out of their post-pitch process. I'm already doing closed transfers into purged kegs, and I figure for as easy as it is to drop a little sugar and yeast in my water, I'll incorporate it into my process when I'm brewing hoppy beers.

Not to mention that Brulosophy didn't find any difference with hot side aeration, I don't think you can avoid aeration when pouring grain into water, strong stiring a few times and pouring into the fermenter. At least not with my BIAB method without a pump.

 

[ExpatPete]

Ninoid, The others have provided some great methods to reduce oxygen. I know I have learned from the discussion!

And I know equipment is not always the answer, and that this does not apply to you at this point in time since you bottle and do not keg. However if/when you do move to kegging, one relatively inexpensive fermentation option that should eliminate the oxygen issues is the Fermzilla Tri-Conical made by Kegland. You can pressure ferment, add hops oxygen free, and most importantly pressure transfer to your keg without adding any O2. In my research it was one of the least expensive options. I would love to have a big shiny SS fermenter, but I have been pleased with my IPA results so far using the FermZilla. There are other similar fermenters but this is the one I am familiar with.

The full FermZilla Tri-Conical package with spunding valve and the Hop Bong to allow O2 free hop additions is $400 USD. You said you reside in Croatia, I am not sure who the European distributor is for Kegland, it may be direct from them in Europe. Cheers!

 

[Bassman2003]

As stated, the more one knows, the less one needs Brulosophy. With regards to low oxygen, they are dead wrong and I would not follow their lead.

The YOS process is 1-2 grams of sugar, 1-2 grams of yeast per gallon of strike water to treat. Heat the water to 90-100F. 20-40 minutes or overnight. Easy and makes a big difference.

Yes, get your cold side the best it can be then decide about your hot side. Low oxygen is about recovering flavors that you never had with HIDO. so if on brews HIDO, you don't know what you are missing until you get the low oxygen flavors. But they are delicate and fleeting, so a strong cold side is needed to retain them before they fade.

 

[mac_1103]

I don't think you can avoid aeration when pouring grain into water, strong stiring a few times and pouring into the fermenter

You can think what you want, but there are countless threads about how to minimize hot side oxygen and why one might want to. There's a whole separate forum on LoDO brewing. I haven't gone down that rabbit hole and obviously you don't have to either, but that doesn't mean that it can't be done. Some simple approaches have been described in this thread, and some links have been provided.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I'm posting a direct link to the YOS article that I use. In the past, these links were subject to 'moderation'. Hopefully we're past that.

https://www.themodernbrewhouse.com/deoxygenation-revisited/

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Not to mention that Brulosophy didn't find any difference with hot side aeration,

A small change that doesn't matter

combined with a small change that doesn't matter​

combined with a small change that doesn't matter​

can result in a​

change that matters.​

I saw this effect while trying changes to both bottling (this topic) and on the 'hot side' (the side topic).

I brew 2.5 gal batches. I dose individual bottles. When I was testing combinations (A, B, C, D) I was able to bottle using the 'base line' process as well as a number of combinations (just A, A&B, ABCD, ...) using the same beer. And with only 24 bottles, I could try things like "bottle condition for a week" at 75F.

What I ended up with was a process similar to what commercial brewers apparently do when they bottle condition: 70-75F with fresh yeast. Ascorbic acid seemed to make a difference for some styles. I also store my bottled cold (refridgerator) after conditioning is complete. Note that I haven't tried "cap on foam" or "minimize bottle head space to 5mm".

 

[Ninoid]

OK. You've talked me into trying to reduce the oxygen on the hot side. I've never tried it so I don't know what difference it might make to my beer, as mentioned.
As far as I understand, for 5g batch, the simplest method is to heat the mash water to 30'C, add some baker's yeast (dry in a bag) and a little sugar (a tablespoon) and leave for half an hour then heat the water and continue with the mash as usual?

 

[mac_1103]

the simplest method is to heat the mash water

The link in post #65 shows that heating the water isn't necessary.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

As far as I understand, for 5g batch, the simplest method is to heat the mash water to 30'C, add some baker's yeast (dry in a bag) and a little sugar (a tablespoon) and leave for half an hour then heat the water and continue with the mash as usual?

https://www.themodernbrewhouse.com/deoxygenation-revisited/ has a number of approaches and measured results.

'Simplest' will vary based the individual brewer.

 

[bwible]

when i used to bottle i used to do it over the open dishwasher to catch spills like this homebrewer does:
View attachment 869437

I have one of these bottling stations I got from Northern Brewer a few years ago. They were on clearance and I got it cheap. It has a tray / drip catcher with a center piece for your bottles you place under you while bottling and 2 small containers for holding bottle caps in sanitizer. For storage it also holds your capper. Though I use a bench capper. I don’t know if they stil sell these. I use it every time I bottle. I use an avinator or they sometimes call it a bottle rinser to sanitize bottles. Fill it with star san or iodophor. 4 or 5 pumps on each bottle, then I place them on a bottle tree to dry. Gone are the days of filling buckets with sanitizer for bottles. Yeah, I still fill buckets with PBW and soak first.

 

[RM-MN]

4 or 5 pumps on each bottle,

One pump coats the entire inside of the bottle. More than that doesn't do anything more. Get an empty clear bottle and try it.

 

[bwible]

One pump coats the entire inside of the bottle. More than that doesn't do anything more. Get an empty clear bottle and try it.

Homebrew OCD. Feel better being sure. Its not wasting anything. Better safe than sorry.

 

[Bassman2003]

As far as I understand, for 5g batch, the simplest method is to heat the mash water to 30'C, add some baker's yeast (dry in a bag) and a little sugar (a tablespoon) and leave for half an hour then heat the water and continue with the mash as usual?

Yes, but follow the guidelines I mentioned - 1-2 grams of sugar, 1-2 grams of yeast per gallon. Don't do it like Brulosophy Brick by brick is how you improve your beers. After you try YOS and see it is easy, then add some sodium metabisulfite on the next brew etc... The cold side is the least forgiving. What makes it all tough is if you fall down in any area, you lose the flavor/aroma.

 

[Miraculix]

One thing that I've tried in the past is to cap on foam in order to try purging as much CO2 as possible from the head space.

I used a compressed air gun that has a rubber tip and I inserted a thin plastic straw into it. The straw was intended as a coffee stirrer, but it was thin and rigid enough to work. I connected this to my CO2 tank and set the pressure very low (high pressure may put beer on your ceiling... not that I would know from personal experience).

When you blast a little CO2 into the beer, it creates some CO2-filled bubbles. Unfortunately, these are fairly large bubbles and they don't last as long as you'd get from natural carbonation, so you need to work fast to seal the cap.

I've considered upgrading to an air stone for this in order to get denser and longer lasting foam, but I mostly keg, so this has been a low priority for me.

This is the type of gun I'm referring to:
View attachment 869543

This plus minimum headspace should be near zero oxygen in the bottle after natural carbing.

I left about 5 to 7 mm so that, if there is no additional pressure from CO2, there will be no problem.

Perfect, you´re good mate!

 

[Ninoid]

I have one of these bottling stations I got from Northern Brewer a few years ago. They were on clearance and I got it cheap. It has a tray / drip catcher with a center piece for your bottles you place under you while bottling and 2 small containers for holding bottle caps in sanitizer. For storage it also holds your capper. Though I use a bench capper. I don’t know if they stil sell these. I use it every time I bottle. I use an avinator or they sometimes call it a bottle rinser to sanitize bottles. Fill it with star san or iodophor. 4 or 5 pumps on each bottle, then I place them on a bottle tree to dry. Gone are the days of filling buckets with sanitizer for bottles. Yeah, I still fill buckets with PBW and soak first.

View attachment 869550

View attachment 869551

I use the same Vinator and disinfect the bottles with Starsan before bottling.

 

[Ninoid]

Ninoid, The others have provided some great methods to reduce oxygen. I know I have learned from the discussion!

And I know equipment is not always the answer, and that this does not apply to you at this point in time since you bottle and do not keg. However if/when you do move to kegging, one relatively inexpensive fermentation option that should eliminate the oxygen issues is the Fermzilla Tri-Conical made by Kegland. You can pressure ferment, add hops oxygen free, and most importantly pressure transfer to your keg without adding any O2. In my research it was one of the least expensive options. I would love to have a big shiny SS fermenter, but I have been pleased with my IPA results so far using the FermZilla. There are other similar fermenters but this is the one I am familiar with.

The full FermZilla Tri-Conical package with spunding valve and the Hop Bong to allow O2 free hop additions is $400 USD. You said you reside in Croatia, I am not sure who the European distributor is for Kegland, it may be direct from them in Europe. Cheers!

That seems quite expensive to me because in my country 27L Fermzilla Gen 3 costs 170 euros, which would be half the price. I plan to get a fermentation fridge in the future and then I would get such a fermenter.

 

[Ninoid]

Here is a good post about hot side aeration:



The bottom line is that hot side aeration does exist and does cause some changes in beer quality, but they are negligible.
In translation, it's not worth the effort.

 

[bestcoast]

Here is a good post about hot side aeration:



The bottom line is that hot side aeration does exist and does cause some changes in beer quality, but they are negligible.
In translation, it's not worth the effort.

Not worth the effort for you. It's worth it for lots of folks in this thread. There are tons of things I do for brewing that have a very minor effect on the finished product. That's fine with me, a big part of why I enjoy homebrewing is tinkering with my process and learning new things. Other people have different reasons they enjoy the hobby and don't tinker as much.

Cold-side oxygenation is beer-destroying enough that everyone should consider ways to reduce it. Hot-side aeration is different, but there are lots of interesting techniques to mitigate it if you want to tinker. Totally fine to say it's not worth the impact for you; I just don't think that's universal.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

post about hot side aeration

The /r/homebrewing topic (link) is from 2011. Sometimes old content is timeless, sometimes is not.

the effort.

In the March 2018 issue of BYO Magazine, there was an article ('Methods of the Low Oxygen Brewhouse, link) that describes many of the individual processes.

With those descriptions, it's practical for individual home brewers to decide if the process is worth the effort.

The article seems to pair nicely with the podcasts I mentioned earlier:

• Brew Files – 160 – Oxygen – The Sometimes Enemy
• Controlling Oxygen in Beer with Colin Kaminski – BeerSmith Podcast #293
• Beer Process Control with Colin Kaminski – BeerSmith Podcast #269
• Russian River's Ultimate Guide to Oxygen Management in the Brewhouse

 

[Bassman2003]

No need to revisit the past. Ninoid has stated it is not worth the effort. Plenty of info has been given for the bottling situation and I hope it gets better.

 

[Ninoid]

No need to revisit the past. Ninoid has stated it is not worth the effort. Plenty of info has been given for the bottling situation and I hope it gets better.

Yes, I definitely need to work on cold side aeration and it's well worth the effort.

 

[ExpatPete]

That seems quite expensive to me because in my country 27L Fermzilla Gen 3 costs 170 euros, which would be half the price. I plan to get a fermentation fridge in the future and then I would get such a fermenter.

The Fermzilla is €172 Euro here. The Hop Bong to add the hops was almost the same price. Plus I added the pressure kit to also pressure transfer. So about the same price.

 

[Ninoid]

Two weeks ago I bottled the beer (first time to the top of the bottle) and left it to naturally carbonate, as I usually do. Today I tasted it after two days in the fridge and there is almost no foam at all. The beer is full-flavored and good, but the carbonation is very, very weak. I will leave it in the fridge for a few more days and check again. Maybe this beer is still lacking oxygen from the space I usually leave to the top of the bottle (3-4 cm) to properly carbonate?

 

[Bassman2003]

Low carbonation is either no yeast, no sugar or leaky caps. No sugar is the least likely so the yeast pooped out or the caps are leaking out what CO2 was created.

 

[Miraculix]

Two weeks ago I bottled the beer (first time to the top of the bottle) and left it to naturally carbonate, as I usually do. Today I tasted it after two days in the fridge and there is almost no foam at all. The beer is full-flavored and good, but the carbonation is very, very weak. I will leave it in the fridge for a few more days and check again. Maybe this beer is still lacking oxygen from the space I usually leave to the top of the bottle (3-4 cm) to properly carbonate?

I have never experienced any detrimental effect on carbonation when filling up to the almost top and I do this since a long time with every batch. There is no connection.

If you leave it in the fridge, there will be almost zero further carbing. Better shake the bottles gently to rouse the yeast and leave them at room temperature.

 

[Ninoid]

I have never experienced any detrimental effect on carbonation when filling up to the almost top and I do this since a long time with every batch. There is no connection.

If you leave it in the fridge, there will be almost zero further carbing. Better shake the bottles gently to rouse the yeast and leave them at room temperature.

I'll definitely leave it at room temperature for a while longer. Maybe it just happened that it was poorly carbonated. The last few weeks it's been a little below 20'C in the room where my beer is stored, and it's a wheat beer, so maybe it needs a little more time to carbonate.

 

[Ninoid]

I've been doing some research on my beer diary and have noticed that most wheat beers have low foam after two weeks of carbonation. It will obviously need some more time. The main thing is that it's not related to filling the bottles to the top.

 

[Dancy]

I've been doing some research on my beer diary and have noticed that most wheat beers have low foam after two weeks of carbonation. It will obviously need some more time. The main thing is that it's not related to filling the bottles to the top.

I bottle only and have often found two weeks in the bottle is simply not enough time to reach full carbonation. When I started brewing, I remember that two week recommendation being the norm, but at least in my experience, it has been an inadequate amount of time.

 

[brewSJ]

I think that might depend on the yeast. I routinely sample a bottle after 1 week and they’re always carbonated (albeit not yet conditioned). I only use dry yeast though, and the yeast in my fermenter is done in under a week too.

 

[Ninoid]

I bottle only and have often found two weeks in the bottle is simply not enough time to reach full carbonation. When I started brewing, I remember that two week recommendation being the norm, but at least in my experience, it has been an inadequate amount of time.

In my experience, it's usually enough, but in warmer weather and barley beer (no wheat, no oats) around 5% ABV.