Rapid loss of hop aroma (again)

[Ninoid]

It's really easy, just bottle above a bowl and the drippings get caught in there.

The beauty of bottle carbonation is that the oxygen in the headspace is literally the only remaining real root of your problem. You can try around a hundred different things or just remove it and be done with it.

Yes, I understand that I just need to fill the bottle to the top. I've read a lot about this problem and concluded that most of the oxygen in the beer can be removed by letting the yeast use it up during natural carbonation.
I came across a suggestion to turn the bottles upside down so that the oxygen from the headspace will dissolve in the beer and be used up by the yeast. This procedure is most commonly used with wine.

 

[Miraculix]

Yes, I understand that I just need to fill the bottle to the top. I've read a lot about this problem and concluded that most of the oxygen in the beer can be removed by letting the yeast use it up during natural carbonation.
I came across a suggestion to turn the bottles upside down so that the oxygen from the headspace will dissolve in the beer and be used up by the yeast. This procedure is most commonly used with wine.

But wine is not bottle carbed.

The turning around might increase surface area between air and liquid, so there's a chance that more oxygen gets dissolved into the liquid during the time that the yeast is active in the bottle, but I don't think that all of it goes into solution within this short time frame. And the portion that's being left over will oxidise your hops later on.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I do this and since I started, hop aroma for ages from my bottles.

For those interesting in A/B testing, how long is "ages"?

As for process, it sounds like the only change to the classic bottling process is

remove as much air from the headspace as possible. Fill the bottles up until five mm below the rim

So use existing yeast and bottle condition at ambient temperature for 2 to three weeks. What is your typical temperature range for ambient temperature?

 

[Miraculix]

For those interesting in A/B testing, how long is "ages"?

As for process, it sounds like the only change to the classic bottling process is

So use existing yeast and bottle condition at ambient temperature for 2 to three weeks. What is your typical temperature range for ambient temperature?

I've had still good hop aroma after 3-4 months. Of course it will change a little bit but it won't disappear. My bottles behave similarly to commercially filled bottles that were capped on co2 foam. Ambient for me is between18-23 c.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

That looks like a good description for anyone who wants to do A/B testing of their bottling process.

Thanks @Miraculix !

 

[ExpatPete]

Read less Brulosophy. Your beers will thank you.

If you don't mind my asking why do you say that? I kind of enjoy Martin. I don't really learn a ton since most are inconclusive tests, but I like watching them anyway. But I am a relatively new brewer (30 brews) so learning about brewing is a target rich environment for me!

 

[Ninoid]

But wine is not bottle carbed.

The turning around might increase surface area between air and liquid, so there's a chance that more oxygen gets dissolved into the liquid during the time that the yeast is active in the bottle, but I don't think that all of it goes into solution within this short time frame. And the portion that's being left over will oxidise your hops later on.

Yes. That could happen. I've turned bottles upside down once before because I was trying to induce more carbonation in a beer that was pretty flat, and I noticed dried yeast residue on the cap when I put the bottles upright in the fridge.

 

[Bassman2003]

@ExpatPete It is a touchy subject but how useful is learning some "wrong" things when you are new to anything? Better to learn the right ways from the beginning even if they might be more complex or difficult imho. Yes, Martin is a pleasant person. They are not all bad, but it seems the more one knows, the less one needs Brulosophy.

 

[ExpatPete]

@ExpatPete It is a touchy subject but how useful is learning some "wrong" things when you are new to anything? Better to learn the right ways from the beginning even if they might be more complex or difficult imho.

Right. Fair enough. I am spending more time in this forum HBT. There are some great threads to learn from.

 

[ExpatPete]

Right. Fair enough. I am spending more time in this forum HBT. There are some great threads to learn from.

And to add to that last comment I am in a brewing club in SW Virginia, The Star City Brewers Guild. There are some fantastic brewers in the Guild. Being able to discuss and discuss while sampling a brew is a great way to learn.

 

[mac_1103]

If you don't mind my asking why do you say that?

They almost never get a statistically significant result because they don't understand statistics and often fail to properly isolate the variable they are ostensibly testing. Most of it is about as helpful as someone on this forum saying "I tried that once and it didn't seem to make much difference."

 

[Ninoid]

I personally really appreciate what the guys from Brulosophy are doing because it fits my philosophy. I love beer (I've been drinking it for 40 years), I love making things with my hands, and I love experimenting to achieve a goal more simply, cheaper, and faster, and their work further encourages me to experiment. Second, they do it without achieving direct financial gain, which is very hard to find these days.

 

[bestcoast]

There was already your post about how little space above the beer in the bottle makes a big difference. I haven't started using that yet because it makes my bottling time longer and creates a mess when it overflows, but I go with the line of least resistance and leave a few centimeters of space. I will have to seriously work on that.

Back when I was bottling, oxygen reduction was the only thing that fixed the fact that all my IPAs sucked after week one. The main thing I did was no headspace in my bottles. You can also try to minimize oxygen at other points in the process. I got a Tilt so I wouldn't need to take samples from the fermenter. And I sometimes use bakers yeast to reduce dissolved oxygen in my strike water. My IPAs stay fresh until they're gone now.

Also to your first post, you don't need to see a darker color in order to know it's oxygen. The hop aroma is the first thing to go, before other symptoms of oxygenation show up.

 

[Ninoid]

Let me add that I tried some of Brulospohy's experiments myself with partial success, so I agree that the results of their experiments should not be taken as scientific fact, but rather as an incentive to try to change some things ourselves, which, by the way, is written at the end of each of their experiments.

 

[Ninoid]

Back when I was bottling, oxygen reduction was the only thing that fixed the fact that all my IPAs sucked after week one. The main thing I did was no headspace in my bottles. You can also try to minimize oxygen at other points in the process. I got a Tilt so I wouldn't need to take samples from the fermenter. And I sometimes use bakers yeast to reduce dissolved oxygen in my strike water. My IPAs stay fresh until they're gone now.

Also to your first post, you don't need to see a darker color in order to know it's oxygen. The hop aroma is the first thing to go, before other symptoms of oxygenation show up.

I haven't taken samples either for years. I don't even measure FG anymore because I learned by the look and aroma when the beer is done. I'm wondering how you use baker's yeast to take oxygen from water? Which strike water does this refer to? After putting the yeast in the fermenter, I don't add any more water to the beer.

 

[bestcoast]

I haven't taken samples either for years. I don't even measure FG anymore because I learned by the look and aroma when the beer is done. I'm wondering how you use baker's yeast to take oxygen from water? Which strike water does this refer to? After putting the yeast in the fermenter, I don't add any more water to the beer.

By strike water, I mean the water you're using to mash. For oxygen-sensitive styles, I'll pour my water into the kettle the night before and then put in a bit of white sugar and bakers yeast. I can't remember the exact proportions right now, something like a spoonful of sugar and 10g of yeast. Over right, the yeast will soak up almost all of the dissolved oxygen. I learned about the technique on HBT. I don't have a DO meter, but someone on here does and did some testing to find that this method is very effective. Obviously there are many other ways oxygen gets into your wort, including in the mash and such, but this is easy enough that I use it.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I'll pour my water into the kettle the night before and then put in a bit of white sugar and bakers yeast. I can't remember the exact proportions right now, something like a spoonful of sugar and 10g of yeast. Over right, the yeast will soak up almost all of the dissolved oxygen. I learned about the technique on HBT.

Web search (/1/, /2/) "yeast oxygen scavenging" or "yeast deoxygenation method" to get to a good "source of truth".

In addition to the overnight option, there are two good brew day options.

----------

/1/ I'm finding that LLMs have trouble with brewing topics that were or still are controversial.

/2/ I'm not going to try to include a direct link.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

learning about brewing is a target rich environment for me!

Here are some targets to consider:

• Brew Files – 160 – Oxygen – The Sometimes Enemy
• Controlling Oxygen in Beer with Colin Kaminski – BeerSmith Podcast #293
• Beer Process Control with Colin Kaminski – BeerSmith Podcast #269
• Russian River's Ultimate Guide to Oxygen Management in the Brewhouse

 

[Ninoid]

By strike water, I mean the water you're using to mash. For oxygen-sensitive styles, I'll pour my water into the kettle the night before and then put in a bit of white sugar and bakers yeast. I can't remember the exact proportions right now, something like a spoonful of sugar and 10g of yeast. Over right, the yeast will soak up almost all of the dissolved oxygen. I learned about the technique on HBT. I don't have a DO meter, but someone on here does and did some testing to find that this method is very effective. Obviously there are many other ways oxygen gets into your wort, including in the mash and such, but this is easy enough that I use it.

I don't worry about oxygen on the hot side because it will evaporate during boil anyway.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

From a different perspective (of hot-side aeration): the YOS process is cheap & easy (but can take some time); adding OxBlox / BrewTan-B / the "trifecta" is easy; and mash capping is easy once one has the cap.

The observation that anecdotal reports vary as to effectiveness is valid.

Maybe the key to success is to try all three changes at the same time (that's what I did).

My point is that the ingredients are in-expensive and the process steps are simple. Give it a try. If it works for you, you end up with better beer.

 

[ExpatPete]

By strike water, I mean the water you're using to mash. For oxygen-sensitive styles, I'll pour my water into the kettle the night before and then put in a bit of white sugar and bakers yeast. I can't remember the exact proportions right now, something like a spoonful of sugar and 10g of yeast. Over right, the yeast will soak up almost all of the dissolved oxygen. I learned about the technique on HBT. I don't have a DO meter, but someone on here does and did some testing to find that this method is very effective. Obviously there are many other ways oxygen gets into your wort, including in the mash and such, but this is easy enough that I use it.

Not arguing at all, I am here to learn. But isn't this the stage where we WANT oxygen? Isn't that why we oxygenate the wort prior to pitching yeast?

 

[ExpatPete]

Here are some targets to consider:

• Brew Files – 160 – Oxygen – The Sometimes Enemy
• Controlling Oxygen in Beer with Colin Kaminski – BeerSmith Podcast #293
• Beer Process Control with Colin Kaminski – BeerSmith Podcast #269
• Russian River's Ultimate Guide to Oxygen Management in the Brewhouse

Awesome! Thank you for the links.

 

[Miraculix]

Not arguing at all, I am here to learn. But isn't this the stage where we WANT oxygen? Isn't that why we oxygenate the wort prior to pitching yeast?

No, he's talking about the water for the mash. What you are talking about is oxygen in cold wort pre pitch.

According to what I've read 30-60 minutes is enough time for the yeast to scavenge all the oxygen from the water.

 

[Ninoid]

Today I bottled my Wheat Ale and I changed only one part of my process, which was to fill the bottles to the top. True, this is not a beer with a hoppy aroma so I won't notice any noticeable change, but I did it now so that it would become a habit for me in the future.

Could there be problems with too much pressure in the bottles because of that?

 

[bestcoast]

Not arguing at all, I am here to learn. But isn't this the stage where we WANT oxygen? Isn't that why we oxygenate the wort prior to pitching yeast?

Aeration of hot wort is different from aeration of the cold wort pre-pitch. There's some evidence that dissolved oxygen can have an impact on the mash and oxygenate compounds there. John Palmer says any oxygenation of wort over 80 degrees can impact compounds in the wort that eventually lead to staling. And to Ninoid's point about the boil driving off oxygen, that's only true for dissolved oxygen that's still in solution. It won't reverse oxygenated compounds created by DO in the mash.

I think everyone agrees that hot-side aeration isn't nearly as harmful to beer as cold-side aeration, and homebrewers should focus first on getting oxygen out of their post-pitch process. I'm already doing closed transfers into purged kegs, and I figure for as easy as it is to drop a little sugar and yeast in my water, I'll incorporate it into my process when I'm brewing hoppy beers.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

According to what I've read 30-60 minutes is enough time for the yeast to scavenge all the oxygen from the water.

There is also "20 min in warm water (vs room temperature) alternative.

A little bread yeast (destined to be nutrient), a little sugar, some additional time.

 

[Miraculix]

Today I bottled my Wheat Ale and I changed only one part of my process, which was to fill the bottles to the top. True, this is not a beer with a hoppy aroma so I won't notice any noticeable change, but I did it now so that it would become a habit for me in the future.

Could there be problems with too much pressure in the bottles because of that?

I did say "leave about 5 mm free", which is the space where the water can go if it expands due to temperature changes. If there's no space, it might crack the bottle.

Regarding pressure from co2, no additional risk from this method.

Also with non hoppy beers you will see a difference in shelf life and flavour development.

 

[Miraculix]

Aeration of hot wort is different from aeration of the cold wort pre-pitch. There's some evidence that dissolved oxygen can have an impact on the mash and oxygenate compounds there. John Palmer says any oxygenation of wort over 80 degrees can impact compounds in the wort that eventually lead to staling. And to Ninoid's point about the boil driving off oxygen, that's only true for dissolved oxygen that's still in solution. It won't reverse oxygenated compounds created by DO in the mash.

I think everyone agrees that hot-side aeration isn't nearly as harmful to beer as cold-side aeration, and homebrewers should focus first on getting oxygen out of their post-pitch process. I'm already doing closed transfers into purged kegs, and I figure for as easy as it is to drop a little sugar and yeast in my water, I'll incorporate it into my process when I'm brewing hoppy beers.

Yep, same for me. If I have the extra half an hour, I usually do it. I heat the water to 30 c and drop in a pack of bread yeast and some sugar.

 

[Ninoid]

I did say "leave about 5 mm free", which is the space where the water can go if it expands due to temperature changes. If there's no space, it might crack the bottle.

Regarding pressure from co2, no additional risk from this method.

Also with non hoppy beers you will see a difference in shelf life and flavour development.

I left about 5 to 7 mm so that, if there is no additional pressure from CO2, there will be no problem.

 

[Skeeter686]

I did say "leave about 5 mm free", which is the space where the water can go if it expands due to temperature changes. If there's no space, it might crack the bottle.

Regarding pressure from co2, no additional risk from this method.

Also with non hoppy beers you will see a difference in shelf life and flavour development.

One thing that I've tried in the past is to cap on foam in order to try purging as much CO2 as possible from the head space.

I used a compressed air gun that has a rubber tip and I inserted a thin plastic straw into it. The straw was intended as a coffee stirrer, but it was thin and rigid enough to work. I connected this to my CO2 tank and set the pressure very low (high pressure may put beer on your ceiling... not that I would know from personal experience).

When you blast a little CO2 into the beer, it creates some CO2-filled bubbles. Unfortunately, these are fairly large bubbles and they don't last as long as you'd get from natural carbonation, so you need to work fast to seal the cap.

I've considered upgrading to an air stone for this in order to get denser and longer lasting foam, but I mostly keg, so this has been a low priority for me.

This is the type of gun I'm referring to: