I recently brewed a Czech Pils and will be kegging this weekend. I was thinking of brewing another beer, in particular a Czech Dark lager and racking the wort onto the Pils yeast cake. Anybody see any problems with this?
Racking onto a yeast cake. Help
- Thread starter knollybru
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
TANSTAAFB
Well-Known Member
Nope, consider that pils a big a$$ starter!
Typically, you would only need about 1/4 of a fresh yeast cake. Maybe a little more for lagers. So I would save 1/2 - 3/4 out and use for a few more future brews.
After storing longer than 1-2 months in the fridge the yeast slurries would be better off with a new starter before pitching.
After storing longer than 1-2 months in the fridge the yeast slurries would be better off with a new starter before pitching.
Probably fine, but what was the OG of the Pils, and how long has it been fermenting?
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2012
- Messages
- 2,418
- Reaction score
- 3,058
I'd agree with 1/4 to no more than 1/2. Give you idea of what yeast slurry can do. I brewed a Irish Red with Wyeast 1084 Irish Ale, SG of 1.054 knowing I was going to use some slurry for a Barleywine. Barleywine SG was 1.100, scooped out just under 2 cups of slurry and pitched into 5.5 gallons of wort. I'd have to check my notes, but I think I held the temperature at 64* during fermentation. Two weeks later and it was down to 1.015. Transferred to a secondary keg on oak two weeks after that and it was at 1.011. Healthy yeast slurry is some powerful stuff.
TANSTAAFB
Well-Known Member
Yeah, but that's ale yeast. You need significantly more lager yeast. Use Mr. Malty yeast calculator. BUT personally I want to mess with the yeast as little as possible to reduce risk of infection. I used to wash yeast all the time until I read an article where they had tested washed yeast slurry and unwashed (basically the yeast cake) and found that the yeast is spread throughout the slurry and that there is nothing really detrimental in that slurry. I think your risk of overpitching a lager is slim to none but use the calculator and measure it out if you like.
Cavpilot2000
Well-Known Member
The first time I pitched onto an ale yeast cake (brown ale followed by a big stout), I didn't use a blowoff tube, and instead used a regular airlock on a brewbucket. I oxygenated the hell out of it, and in the middle of the night (about 5-6 hours post-pitching) I was awakened by a BOOM and the sound of a bucket lid falling onto the floor.
It actually blew the lid clean off, ripping the rubber gasket out of it in the process, and sprayed fermenting kreusen all over my kitchen cabinets and ceiling. Try removing dark beer foam from a white popcorn ceiling...not fun.
Moral of the story: expect a fast, powerful fermentation, and if you ever do it with an ale, use a blowoff tube.
A lager will be less vigorous - I just did it the other day, pitching a Munich Dunkel onto an Oktoberfest cake (WY 2308). I had strong signs of fermentation by morning (8 hours post-pitch) at 52 F.
It actually blew the lid clean off, ripping the rubber gasket out of it in the process, and sprayed fermenting kreusen all over my kitchen cabinets and ceiling. Try removing dark beer foam from a white popcorn ceiling...not fun.
Moral of the story: expect a fast, powerful fermentation, and if you ever do it with an ale, use a blowoff tube.
A lager will be less vigorous - I just did it the other day, pitching a Munich Dunkel onto an Oktoberfest cake (WY 2308). I had strong signs of fermentation by morning (8 hours post-pitch) at 52 F.
Thanks for all the advise everybody. I really don't want to handle the yeast at all, if possible. I'm not worried about blowoff b/c I use a 7.9 gal Speidel fermenter. I will consult Mr. Malty though. My main concerns I guess was the possibility of over pitching which I think is unlikely with a lager. The other being weird flavors being carried over from the previous beer.
I don't know, maybe I'm over thinking this.
I don't know, maybe I'm over thinking this.
Cavpilot2000
Well-Known Member
Assuming you tasted the first beer during racking and it didn't have any off flavors, your yeast should be clean and good to go.
For a lager, yeah, don't worry about overpitching - you won't. Just pour from kettle into the fermenter full of yeast, sit back, and watch the fireworks!
btbnl
Well-Known Member
So do people simply drain the beer from the fermenter and pour the new wort straight in, or try to clean the krausen debris etc first, or move the yeast to a clean fermenter before adding the wort?
troglodytes
Well-Known Member
I second this question, as I'm abot to do the same thing. I was thinking about draining the fermentor, collecting the slurry into sanitized containers. Cleaning the fermentor and then pitching the slurry.
Cavpilot2000
Well-Known Member
Nope. I just pour it right in - no cleaning, nothing.
Remember, if you did everything right, sanitation-wise, in both batches, the inside of the fermenter should be sanitary and free of any organisms other than yeast.
That said, if your first beer was sitting in that fermenter for a month or more, maybe I'd rack the slurry, but at the normal 2-3 weeks, I don't hesitate.
And again, I disclaim that this is merely my experience, in which the simplest approach simply works. I think concerns overpitching (with an ale) or cell count are overblown. That said, if you follow my method and it doesn't work for you, I disclaim any responsibility (because the fault probably lies in a flaw elsewhere).
So bottom line: it works for me with zero issues, and results in a vigorous, fast, and thorough fermentation.
btbnl
Well-Known Member
Understood. My only concern would be flavors from the residual krausen gunk, but attempting to clean that probably has a higher risk of introducing contamination than just leaving well alone.
How many cycles have you done with the same yeast cake? Have you ever left it sealed in the fermenter for any length of time (eg. overnight) before pitching onto it (with my schedule I often end up kegging the last batches day before I brew the next).
Cavpilot2000
Well-Known Member
I have never pitched on a single cake more than once, but I usually try to harvest some from the cake for later batches.
I completely agree that if you tried to clean stuff, you increase the risk of infection/contamination.
Caveat: I don't think this works at all if you dry hopped the last beer in the primary, but I think that goes without saying (but I said it anyway).
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
I would never dump fresh beer into a crusty primary. Just for the fact theres no reason to. Just spray some Starsan into a mason jar, cereal bowl whatever and dump the yeast cake in. Clean the bucket, rack and dump in the yeast. You will do no damage moving the yeast around. I almost always use a slurry and have never reused a crusty primary. Totally not worth worrying about.
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
I've reused a yeast cake three or four times. They say the yeast can morph after using it to many times giving different flavors than the first time you pitch it. I figure after 3/4 times I've gotten my moneys worth and start from scratch with a new packet. I've never left an empty primary overnight and pitched on it but sealed mason jars in a fridge I've used a month later if not more
Cavpilot2000
Well-Known Member
Homebrewers have been pitching on yeast cakes for decades. If it were a fundamentally flawed or excessively risky process, it would have been culled long ago.
There's nothing crusty about it. It's nice and silky smooth. Think of it like pitching on 20 vials of White Labs.
But if it's not your thing, to each his own.
I realize I didn't answer this question before.
I usually don't leave a latency period. I just plan ahead to rack the first beer on my brew day. So while Beer #2 is chilling, I am racking beer #1 off the lees.
I'm not sure I would trust the yeast cake to sit exposed overnight. Maybe it's fine, but covered with beer, it is protected. Once you take the beer off...who knows?
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
Not the yeast being crusty the bucket and Krausen ring.It dries out in no time...and gets crusty. I like starting with a clean bucket.
Cavpilot2000
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I get that. There is something reassuring about sparkling clean stuff stu start your brew in.
And you're right, there is no reason specifically to do this, but it does work. However, if it doesn't appeal, I get it. Me: I've done it several times, but mostly I don't, because I don't usually use the same yeast back-to-back (I'm usually alternating between German lagers and ales, so re-using the previous yeast isn't often an option).
nesbit6363
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2014
- Messages
- 47
- Reaction score
- 4
I think I'm about to try this myself, my main concern was infection also. I don't know if I'm going to rack right on to the yeas or take it out first and clean the fermenter.
If I was going to take it out my idea was to leave a small amout of the beer in the fermenter to loosen the yeast then pour it in a sanitized container. Does this sound like a good idea?
If I was going to take it out my idea was to leave a small amout of the beer in the fermenter to loosen the yeast then pour it in a sanitized container. Does this sound like a good idea?
MindenMan
Well-Known Member
A small amount of beer or boiled water will work just fine to loosen up the yeast cake. Reusing the yeast cake is done all the time with good results; I wouldn't keep using all of the yeast cake as after you get past the second or third batch you can have a gallon or more of yeast cake in the bottom of your fermenter. Generally speaking a pint of yeast cake into the next batch is plenty of yeast to have a healthy fermentation.
TANSTAAFB
Well-Known Member
Yep. I use .5 gallon Mason jars sanitized with Starsan, leave a little beer behind, swirl it up and dump it in! I washed yeast for years and realized I was wasting my time after reading experiments that showed that there is yeast throughout the trub slurry and the other stuff in there won't hurt a damn thing! The yeast is fine sitting under beer in the fermenter so I think it's fine sitting under beer in a mason jar and IMO minimizes the risk of infection as long as your practices are sanitary.
