Quick Sour method

[christyle]

The place really seems like a high school jock opened his dream bar. I don't see any indication that they will be brewing anything, but it was busy when I stopped in. I'll check it out again soon to see if there are plans to brew on site or not. I'm pretty sure it's a legal issue calling yourself a brewery when you don't brew...

 

[wardens355]

OK so I measured the pH of the beer that I used the same blend which I am using for this big commerical brew. 52 days past pitching the bugs its at 3.2

I have no idea how that stack up to other sours. Is that any good? I assume it will continue to sour but it already tastes to my liking...

I brewed my first two sours about a year ago, one with Roeselare and the other with Wyeast's de Bom blend. I transferred to secondary after a month or two, then aged for around 6 more months before transferring to keg. Then I used the secondary cakes, fresh Wyeast Brett Brux, and fresh cultures of Wyeast Lacto and Pedio to brew a subsequent couple batches of sour beer. I have been racking one at a time and splitting the cake into two new batches, and now have 10 sour batches developing. I pitch various Russian River and Boulevard Love Child dregs whenever I open those bottles.

I have been measuring pH whenever I pull a sample (not often). I just measured the Roeselare batch from a year ago and it is around 3.8 (finally becoming faintly sour). The de Bom blend batch is around 3.15 (took maybe 2 months to start developing real sour, but took more time for the Brett character to steer away from pure horse butt, now drinks well and am going to bottle). Batches from the subsequent brews have been becoming acidic very quickly. A couple I made around 2 months ago came in at around 3.05 and 3.15. My latest batch was brewed 2 weeks ago and included a sour Brett stout. I was curious about the specific gravity and pH, so I thieved a sample this past weekend. Gravity was 1.015 and pH was already 3.2.

I don't know what qualifies as good for pH, and I would guess the best gauge is tasting the product. I have read about titratable acidity being more value than pH, but for me, all the beers I have with pH 3.2 or less are perceivably quite sour.

 

[m00ps]

hmm ok thanks thats good to know. Yeah Ive always considered taste is the #1 factor but Ive just seen a lot of people talking about taking pH readings of their sours. Ive only ever checked the mash before now

 

[BGBC]

Wow, lots going on here. I think I skipped over this thread initially because I assumed it was a kettle souring question

Collaboration sounds cool, and good on the brewery for being open to this. I'm a little surprised that they seem to be ceding so much control over the batch. I hope they have good sanitation in place, etc.

One thing that I'd be concerned about is consistency from batch to batch, if the brewery decides to continue with this after the first batch. If this is just a one-off special brew, not as critical. (Kettle souring would be more repeatable though...)

For you personally and in case the brewery wants to keep this mixed culture going after the first batch, there's a great AMA thread with Jester King head brewer Garrett Crowell where he discusses how they store and handle their house culture (which was started from a mix of commercial pitches, wild-caught yeast, and bottle dregs). See the last post on this page, among others in the thread:

Garrett Crowell AMA

Is the recipe basically a pils/wheat combo? If you're concerned about the beer being too thin/overly dry, I would recommend mashing high (156-158 even). The higher you mash though, the longer it might take to reach FG. Does the brewery have a turnaround time in mind? Or are they open to waiting it out?

Not sure about the nitro idea, but maybe they can try it out with a single 5 gal keg to see if it works.

What kind of barrel is it? And if they already have the barrel, what are they doing with it until it's filled? Unless it's a wine barrel, I'd be wary of using a freshly dumped spirit barrel for a sour (esp a lighter sour).

Sorry for the long response

 

[wobrien]

Wow, lots going on here. I think I skipped over this thread initially because I assumed it was a kettle souring question



Collaboration sounds cool, and good on the brewery for being open to this. I'm a little surprised that they seem to be ceding so much control over the batch. I hope they have good sanitation in place, etc.



One thing that I'd be concerned about is consistency from batch to batch, if the brewery decides to continue with this after the first batch. If this is just a one-off special brew, not as critical. (Kettle souring would be more repeatable though...)



For you personally and in case the brewery wants to keep this mixed culture going after the first batch, there's a great AMA thread with Jester King head brewer Garrett Crowell where he discusses how they store and handle their house culture (which was started from a mix of commercial pitches, wild-caught yeast, and bottle dregs). See the last post on this page, among others in the thread:



Garrett Crowell AMA



Is the recipe basically a pils/wheat combo? If you're concerned about the beer being too thin/overly dry, I would recommend mashing high (156-158 even). The higher you mash though, the longer it might take to reach FG. Does the brewery have a turnaround time in mind? Or are they open to waiting it out?



Not sure about the nitro idea, but maybe they can try it out with a single 5 gal keg to see if it works.



What kind of barrel is it? And if they already have the barrel, what are they doing with it until it's filled? Unless it's a wine barrel, I'd be wary of using a freshly dumped spirit barrel for a sour (esp a lighter sour).



Sorry for the long response

Thanks for that AMA link, what a great read.

 

[BGBC]

Thanks for that AMA link, what a great read.

It's full of good info. It's been a while since I actually read it through. I think I found my afternoon activity...

 

[m00ps]

Thanks Ill check out the link

I think its a wine barrel. But they also got a bourbon barrel thats empty too. I just want to see what its like. Ive never had a nitro sour

The malt bill is like 55%pils / 25%flaked wheat / 20%flaked oats as it stands now. I based this off my most recent sour which used regular wheat instead of the oats. It was basically a wit grain bill fermented with a saison yeast and my sour culture. This was the one that I brought them fermentor samples and they decided to give this whole collaboration a shot. It got drier than anything ive done so far, 0.0996 if I remember right but doesnt feel thin at all. Not really sure what happened there

 

[m00ps]

So weve got the keg-sized starters all done and are planning a brew day for once these guys get back from some beer festival in ireland. I convinced them on my proposed grain bill with a fermentor sample of this blackberry sour I have going. It used the exact same yeast and bugs and I brought them. Its essentially the same beer as I was planning to make with them but with blackberries instead of peaches. Its a few days short of being 2 months old now and its hard to believe how sour it is. I think the tartness of the blackberries adds to it, but its definitely on the higher end of sourness for beers. I assured them that peaches wouldnt accentuate the sourness as much

 

[Ungoliant]

I hope it all goes well for you. Keep us posted!

 

[sweetcell]

I assured them that peaches wouldnt accentuate the sourness as much

i read recently that peaches and apricots contain a surprising amount of acidity, they just don't taste it because they contain so much sugar. once the sugar is fermented out, you're left with just the sourness...

YMMV?

 

[m00ps]

So....apart from the side stuff with the brewery (theyve been dragging their feet due to some managerial changes on the restaurant side of things and Im ready to move on to other things with other breweries), I think my idea to try and speed up sour character development worked. Note that NONE of this is exbeeriment level due to the total lack of a control and differing recipes.

So I brewed 2 sours with my sour blend, one piggybacked off the other sort of. I made a ~1.2L starter, let it go for 2 weeks. Tasted the starter wort, and it was nice and sour by then. I pitched about 2/3 of it (not decanted) into my first saison that had been going for a bit over a week. Then I just built the starter back up, and a few weeks later did the same thing with my second one. Here's the quick details:
#1 - brewed 7/1/15, soured 7/12/15, bottled 10/29/15
WY3711 & WLP566, decent amount of rye, some sugar
#2 - brewed 8/11/15, soured 8/20/15, bottled 11/9/15
WLP585, YB Wallonian Farmhouse, ~45% flaked wheat/oats, some sugar

Last night I had SWMBO try both sours side by side with me (shes more of a sour fan than me). #1 had a very nice rounded sourness. Like what youd buy off the shelf from JP, Crooked Stave, Prairie, etc. SWMBO liked the smell of that one more. But surprisingly, despite being younger, #2 was actually much more sour. Like mouthpuckering, coats your tongue and seems to seep into your lower jaw. I've only had a couple beers this sour before. SWMBO seemed to think this one had more complexity too, but Im thinking it might just be how long that amount of sourness lingers on your palate

anyway, my unscientific ignorant conclusion is that maybe the long starter helped #2 work faster. By the time I pitched it, it was 5-6 weeks old (although half was replaced with new wort). Now, if you include the long starter in the timeframe, its a bit less time saving, but it at least doesnt tie a fermentor up for as long. I dunno *shrug*

I did the same with the sours I recently bottled. I'll look at my notes to see how long those sour starters sat before pitching

 

[skeezerpleezer]

How is the Brett character? Or are you only going for "sour"? Is the sour lactic or acetic?

 

[m00ps]

How is the Brett character? Or are you only going for "sour"? Is the sour lactic or acetic?

Im not too good at descriptions, but its got a lot of brett flavors. Its far from a "clean" sourness. Smell is very barnyardy with a lot of lemon. Definitely lactic sourness and really deep, like when you take the first sip it coats the underside of your tongue and lower jaws. Then does something weird to your saliva glands I feel like. It sticks around for a while after each sip

 

[mesooohoppy]

Did this ever get brewed at your local brewery?

One of my 2 gallons of last year's sours did not make it. It was super thick and viscous, I think that means it was sick.. right? The other gallon was okay and got bottled.

I currently have 4 gallons in my closet. Hoping all 4 come out.