Quick Sour method

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m00ps

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So I've been working with a new local brewery here to do a collaboration recipe. They want to do a sour after seeing how they are quickly becoming more popular and have tried several of mine. The thing is, I dont think they realize exactly what it takes to make one in terms of time needed in the fermentor (where they could be churning out 5+ batches) and sanitary practices (which ill just leave up to them).

I have a sour blend ive been propagating which is a mixture of various bottle dregs from some of my favorite breweries and it seems to be unusually potent. The last sour I made, I did a starter of my blend to pitch into a secondary. The starter was 10 days old and was already more sour than most sour beers Ive tried. All of the sours ive made ive bottled in under 3 months, which doesnt seem to be recommended. Although they continue to develop in the bottle, they are already very sour at bottling

The recipe I designed for them will be using WLP585 Saison III (which is incredibly bright and tart just by itself) along with an equal pitch of my sour blend. I want to use a large portion (like wit levels) of flaked wheat to combat the expected thin body from high attenuation. Its a small 10gal test batch so I told them I can supply the yeast pitch.

My plan is to make my sour starter 2 weeks or more in advance so it already has a low pH which will hopefully get everything rolling quicker. I told them I think I could get them a sour in under 2 months. Think it'll work?
 
Oh and I plan to convince them to use no fermentation temperature control and possibly warm it up and hold it there to see if that helps the bugs act quicker to sour it.

They currently only use wlp001/us-05 for all their beers so I think they are open to my experience using more "exotic" yeasts
 
Seems like they would just want to do a kettle sour, as to not infect any of their equipment with bacteria.
What is in your sour blend?
If its a pedio/brett blend, then that's probably where you are getting the long aging times.
 
im not exactly sure whats all in it. A lot of dregs from Prairie Artisan ales, jolly pumpkin, crooked stave, and Anchorage beers.

ive never done a kettle sour but if it could speed it up I might look into it. I have no idea how it gets things soured as fast as it does. The decanted starter liquid from the last one I made tasted better than like half my final beers which, now that I think about it, i have mixed feeling about. Maybe I somehow just hit a sweet spot with pH and the very diverse set of microbes.

as far as I know, they are just going to serve it as normal and do a crap ton of cleaning afterwards. The first batch is just on a small 10gal system so I guess if it goes over well they can worry about making a sour in their big conicals later.
 
When I do my "fast" American sour, I pitch a starter made of low fat greek yogurt into 110* wort, and if I maintain the temp, I can hit a ph of 3 in about 24 hours. Then start the boil, keep the ph, but kill the bacteria, and nothing is infected. Ferment with sacc just like a regular beer.

A sour made with pedio would be much different, as you'd need to use some brett to clean it up, which would take several months or even a year in some cases, depending on the brett strain.
 
so update:
I am amazed at how quickly this soured. 27 days since racking into a secondary on top of a 2 week old, decanted 1L culture of my sour mix and the beer is already ENTIRELY sour. The flavors will continue to develop of course, maybe another point or two gravity drop. It sitting at 0.0998 right now. I brought a sample from the fermentor to the brewery yesterday. After trying the sample, they ordered the ingredients to make a batch today.

I have no idea how this mixed sour culture is able to do this based on all my research into making sours. I did read up on sour worting, but I prefer this method because it produces something more complex and develops over time while still requiring a shorter window to be ready
 
side note: is anyone familiar with a " Pro Am " competition circuit? They mentioned something about it. not sure what im getting myself into...
 
I think you should get into the bacteria brokerage business, I'd be the first in line ;)

With that said. I have 2 gallons of 2 month old sour in my room right now. Pitched roeselare for the 'yeast' and added almanac bottle dregs 8 days later. I have no idea what I am doing, LOL. I haven't checked it since I added the dregs, but i think I'm going to add some kumquats from our tree into it (oh yeah, a gravity reading would probaby help)..

I am curious to as how long this is going to take. Will the bottle dregs I added help speed up the process? Sorry, don't mean to derail, I am having a hard time wrapping my head around how some say you need a sour to age for atleast 6-8 months and the OP has a sour in a little over a month..
 
Well I brought a sample from my ferment or of my now 30 day old sour to the brewery and they all tried it. Long story short, they now want to do a full commercial sized batch as opposed to a 10gal test batch. I'm growing the yeasts now and we are pitching that into a 5gal keg to make a large starter. Pretty excited. But yeah I may have to start giving this blend out to people if it keeps performing like this

My idea is to give the Brett and sacch a week head start since I don't know exactly what's in this sour blend. From digging around, it seems here may be a chance of some killer wine yeasts being in there so I don't want it to mess with the initial fermentation.
 
I've only done 6 sours so far but I've used the same blend and added a few more dregs along the way for each. I read I needed like 6 months but even the first one was mouth puckering sour at 2 months. Gravity was stable so I bottled it. Like I said , no idea how this repeatedly keeps happening
 
I've only done 6 sours so far but I've used the same blend and added a few more dregs along the way for each. I read I needed like 6 months but even the first one was mouth puckering sour at 2 months. Gravity was stable so I bottled it. Like I said , no idea how this repeatedly keeps happening

Have taken pH readings of your sours at 2/4/6/etc months?
 
No I need to buy a pH meter. I just go by taste. I've had enough sours to be able to tell if something is sufficiently developed. Maybe this brewery I'm working with has a meter we can use. I'll update what the pH is after a month if they do
 
It'll be interesting to see the numbers compared to your tasting notes. I had two carboys of carmenere wine from the same batch but one had a significant bite to it. But the pH and TA readings were almost identical.
 
So im curious to see what others think of this plan. I am currently working on building up the starters for the 3 yeast blends Im planning on using - WLP585, Brett Amalgamation, and my house sour blend. Im giving the sour blend at least a week head start because that seemed to help with my last sour.

the brewery said we can just build a starter in a 1/6 barrel keg. I figure thats my normal batch size so Ill just do a normal sized starter for the brett and WLP585. Those big starters will get pitched at the same time into their full sized conical. Forget how large it is

There may be some killer wine yeasts in my blend so Im going to give the other two a week head start in case it would mess with fermentation. So my sour blend will need to be in a separate big starter. Not sure what size I want to use. I figure any size would work eventually, but bigger (2-3gal maybe) would make for faster souring.

Has anyone tried making a starter in a keg? or primary fermented in a keg? How did you rig an airlock to the lid? Or could we just repeatedly release pressure as it ferments out. Theyve got sanke kegs BTW. They are planning to use weak runnings from a previous batch of their pale ale or wheat as the starter wort.
 
Has anyone tried making a starter in a keg? or primary fermented in a keg? How did you rig an airlock to the lid? Or could we just repeatedly release pressure as it ferments out. Theyve got sanke kegs BTW. They are planning to use weak runnings from a previous batch of their pale ale or wheat as the starter wort.

I have not used this kit but know of it
 
I would throw in there that a sour mash would get the beer done in the same amount of time. I used a 5 gallon igloo cooler with a heating element installed and attached it to a temperature control to maintain 100 degrees for 3 days. I then sparged and brewed like normal except with a 10min boil to kill the lacto. Within 3 weeks I had a very simple Berliner Weisse fermented and force carbed.
 
yeah i researched it, but ive never done one. The brewery is kind of letting me figure out how to do this sour so id want to do something Ive done a few times before. Plus, from my research it looks like there typically isnt as much complexity in sour worting or mashing since there is minimal flavor development over time.

i think ill just pitch my culture and cross my fingers...
 
The lactic souring organisms reproduce more quickly than the other organisms in a blend of microbes, that is why your culture has started to make wort sour very fast as it's been repitched. You get the acid but tend to lose the complexity (because the lactic organisms are just producing acid and the brett, etc. does not have time to do its part). This is why Wyeast and other yeast manufacturer's do not recommend a starter for their sour blends.

If you just want a beer that is sour in flavor, this will work nicely, but in my experience it will not approach the complexity and "intangibles" of a beer produced with more traditional methods and, critically, time.

Again, whether or not this information matters depends entirely on your goal. I just thought I'd provide input based on my experience because it seems from your responses that you think your collection of microbes is unusual, but any commercially available blend will behave this way if repitched over successive generations.

Please don't take this as a negative post. On the contrary: everyone can get a non-kettle-soured sour beer in only a few weeks or months! Just repitch sour dregs a few times. Either way, it is awesome that you get to collaborate and produce a sour beer on a commercial scale. Best of luck!
 
interesting....so maybe it is best to let the brett and sacch get a decent head start before using my blend. Thanks for the info.

I think ill keep using my blend to sour things quickly, and do maybe a month primary before using them. For this commercial batch, im mostly concerned with getting it ready as soon as I can using methods im experienced with though. So ill probably only do like a week or two before pitching the sour blend
 
Cool thread here, and kinda exciting for OP. hope it continues to go well for you. Is there any way of isolating or analyzing what type of wild yeasts/bacteria are present and dominant?

My sour bugs were initially propagated from Jolly Pumpkin dregs. Wowza, they can be aggressive also (even soured some extra 12%, 85 IBU barleywine). I get quick souring generally, though it certainly takes time (12 months+) for the flavors to really come together.
 
So I had a great talk with the brewers last night and they want o put part of the batch into a recently acquired barrel and then serve that portion on nitro. I've never even heard of or considered a nitro sour. It might be just the right thing to account for how dry sours get (my current one I harvested from is 0.995 right now). I included around 35% flaked wheat in my recipe to help, but I am interested to see what anyone thinks of the nitro...
 
OK thanks, good to know. Im bringing the brewery my 2L sour starter in the next day or two so they can start building it up to 5 gallons. I figure the longer that sits, the better. Meanwhile they still need to get the right grains for the recipe since it uses some that they dont keep on stock.
 
So, I cracked my 2.5 month old sour last night and was really surprised at how sour it already was. It had a spicy flavor as well, is that the brett?

I'd like to give it a couple more months to mellow out, but i am really surprised how quickly this soured! Going to have to start reading up on re-using yeast! :)
 
Ive never gotten anything spicy from brett. Its always been straight up fruit salad when used alone, or tart and bit funky when used with a sacch. Maybe thats the sacch yeast
 
OK so I measured the pH of the beer that I used the same blend which I am using for this big commerical brew. 52 days past pitching the bugs its at 3.2

I have no idea how that stack up to other sours. Is that any good? I assume it will continue to sour but it already tastes to my liking...
 
Subscribed for interesting info

The collaboration sounds cool! I had hopes of this with a local "Brewery" that was opening. It just opened. It's just a sports bar. Unsure how they can call themselves a "Brewery"..... [/end sidetrack]
 
Subscribed for interesting info

The collaboration sounds cool! I had hopes of this with a local "Brewery" that was opening. It just opened. It's just a sports bar. Unsure how they can call themselves a "Brewery"..... [/end sidetrack]

maybe with your help, they can really be one. I started by introducing myself and bringing in a cold 6pack for them to try
 
The place really seems like a high school jock opened his dream bar. I don't see any indication that they will be brewing anything, but it was busy when I stopped in. I'll check it out again soon to see if there are plans to brew on site or not. I'm pretty sure it's a legal issue calling yourself a brewery when you don't brew...
 
OK so I measured the pH of the beer that I used the same blend which I am using for this big commerical brew. 52 days past pitching the bugs its at 3.2

I have no idea how that stack up to other sours. Is that any good? I assume it will continue to sour but it already tastes to my liking...

I brewed my first two sours about a year ago, one with Roeselare and the other with Wyeast's de Bom blend. I transferred to secondary after a month or two, then aged for around 6 more months before transferring to keg. Then I used the secondary cakes, fresh Wyeast Brett Brux, and fresh cultures of Wyeast Lacto and Pedio to brew a subsequent couple batches of sour beer. I have been racking one at a time and splitting the cake into two new batches, and now have 10 sour batches developing. I pitch various Russian River and Boulevard Love Child dregs whenever I open those bottles.

I have been measuring pH whenever I pull a sample (not often). I just measured the Roeselare batch from a year ago and it is around 3.8 (finally becoming faintly sour). The de Bom blend batch is around 3.15 (took maybe 2 months to start developing real sour, but took more time for the Brett character to steer away from pure horse butt, now drinks well and am going to bottle). Batches from the subsequent brews have been becoming acidic very quickly. A couple I made around 2 months ago came in at around 3.05 and 3.15. My latest batch was brewed 2 weeks ago and included a sour Brett stout. I was curious about the specific gravity and pH, so I thieved a sample this past weekend. Gravity was 1.015 and pH was already 3.2.

I don't know what qualifies as good for pH, and I would guess the best gauge is tasting the product. I have read about titratable acidity being more value than pH, but for me, all the beers I have with pH 3.2 or less are perceivably quite sour.
 
hmm ok thanks thats good to know. Yeah Ive always considered taste is the #1 factor but Ive just seen a lot of people talking about taking pH readings of their sours. Ive only ever checked the mash before now
 
Wow, lots going on here. I think I skipped over this thread initially because I assumed it was a kettle souring question ;)

Collaboration sounds cool, and good on the brewery for being open to this. I'm a little surprised that they seem to be ceding so much control over the batch. I hope they have good sanitation in place, etc.

One thing that I'd be concerned about is consistency from batch to batch, if the brewery decides to continue with this after the first batch. If this is just a one-off special brew, not as critical. (Kettle souring would be more repeatable though...)

For you personally and in case the brewery wants to keep this mixed culture going after the first batch, there's a great AMA thread with Jester King head brewer Garrett Crowell where he discusses how they store and handle their house culture (which was started from a mix of commercial pitches, wild-caught yeast, and bottle dregs). See the last post on this page, among others in the thread:

Garrett Crowell AMA

Is the recipe basically a pils/wheat combo? If you're concerned about the beer being too thin/overly dry, I would recommend mashing high (156-158 even). The higher you mash though, the longer it might take to reach FG. Does the brewery have a turnaround time in mind? Or are they open to waiting it out?

Not sure about the nitro idea, but maybe they can try it out with a single 5 gal keg to see if it works.

What kind of barrel is it? And if they already have the barrel, what are they doing with it until it's filled? Unless it's a wine barrel, I'd be wary of using a freshly dumped spirit barrel for a sour (esp a lighter sour).

Sorry for the long response :eek:
 
Wow, lots going on here. I think I skipped over this thread initially because I assumed it was a kettle souring question ;)



Collaboration sounds cool, and good on the brewery for being open to this. I'm a little surprised that they seem to be ceding so much control over the batch. I hope they have good sanitation in place, etc.



One thing that I'd be concerned about is consistency from batch to batch, if the brewery decides to continue with this after the first batch. If this is just a one-off special brew, not as critical. (Kettle souring would be more repeatable though...)



For you personally and in case the brewery wants to keep this mixed culture going after the first batch, there's a great AMA thread with Jester King head brewer Garrett Crowell where he discusses how they store and handle their house culture (which was started from a mix of commercial pitches, wild-caught yeast, and bottle dregs). See the last post on this page, among others in the thread:



Garrett Crowell AMA



Is the recipe basically a pils/wheat combo? If you're concerned about the beer being too thin/overly dry, I would recommend mashing high (156-158 even). The higher you mash though, the longer it might take to reach FG. Does the brewery have a turnaround time in mind? Or are they open to waiting it out?



Not sure about the nitro idea, but maybe they can try it out with a single 5 gal keg to see if it works.



What kind of barrel is it? And if they already have the barrel, what are they doing with it until it's filled? Unless it's a wine barrel, I'd be wary of using a freshly dumped spirit barrel for a sour (esp a lighter sour).



Sorry for the long response :eek:


Thanks for that AMA link, what a great read.
 
Thanks Ill check out the link

I think its a wine barrel. But they also got a bourbon barrel thats empty too. I just want to see what its like. Ive never had a nitro sour

The malt bill is like 55%pils / 25%flaked wheat / 20%flaked oats as it stands now. I based this off my most recent sour which used regular wheat instead of the oats. It was basically a wit grain bill fermented with a saison yeast and my sour culture. This was the one that I brought them fermentor samples and they decided to give this whole collaboration a shot. It got drier than anything ive done so far, 0.0996 if I remember right but doesnt feel thin at all. Not really sure what happened there
 
So weve got the keg-sized starters all done and are planning a brew day for once these guys get back from some beer festival in ireland. I convinced them on my proposed grain bill with a fermentor sample of this blackberry sour I have going. It used the exact same yeast and bugs and I brought them. Its essentially the same beer as I was planning to make with them but with blackberries instead of peaches. Its a few days short of being 2 months old now and its hard to believe how sour it is. I think the tartness of the blackberries adds to it, but its definitely on the higher end of sourness for beers. I assured them that peaches wouldnt accentuate the sourness as much
 
I assured them that peaches wouldnt accentuate the sourness as much
i read recently that peaches and apricots contain a surprising amount of acidity, they just don't taste it because they contain so much sugar. once the sugar is fermented out, you're left with just the sourness...

YMMV?
 
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