Quick Lager Method *UPDATED*

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I don't want to do a lager but this stuff is making me want to experiment with one.
 
Thanks for posting this. I'm about 72 hours into primary on my first ever lager, and was planning to do something similar to this.

One note regarding the alternate method of dropping to 30-32 deg quickly rather than stepping it down: I heard Jamil speak on one of his podcasts that ramping down to lager temps slowly leads to less yeast off-flavors. Any thoughts on that?
 
I believe I just unwittingly used your method virtually to a T. Kegging on Saturday and will report back
 
JPrather said:
One note regarding the alternate method of dropping to 30-32 deg quickly rather than stepping it down: I heard Jamil speak on one of his podcasts that ramping down to lager temps slowly leads to less yeast off-flavors. Any thoughts on that?
Click to expand...


Yep, I've heard him say the same thing. Anecdotally, based on many reports from others as well as my own experience, it really doesn't seem to make a difference.
 
Is there any harm in just waiting longer before warming up to 'clean up'? Could an idiot proof 'quicker' (not quickest) lager method be:

Under 1.060: Wait 7 days at 50-55 and then spend 10 days at 65-68 before cold crash+keg/bottle
Over 1.060:Wait 10-12 days at low temp and then two weeks at high temp before cold crash+keg/bottle

I only ask because I dislike micromanaging my beers by their % attenuation.

Thanks ahead of time! :mug:

ZB
 
ZebulonBrewer said:
Is there any harm in just waiting longer before warming up to 'clean up'? Could an idiot proof 'quicker' (not quickest) lager method be:

Under 1.060: Wait 7 days at 50-55 and then spend 10 days at 65-68 before cold crash+keg/bottle
Over 1.060:Wait 10-12 days at low temp and then two weeks at high temp before cold crash+keg/bottle

I only ask because I dislike micromanaging my beers by their % attenuation.

Thanks ahead of time! :mug:

ZB
Click to expand...

That would work totally fine :)
 
I have been going 7 days at 50 and 7 at 65 then seven 33. I bottle on the seventh day of the 33. I have bottled 3 batch's like this and have the 4th in the cold chamber. I have not used the ramp. It don't take long to go from the 50 to 65 and even less to chill to 33. I am just a rookie but I like Lager's taste and this is tasting pretty good to me. Thanks Brulosopher
 
Would this method work for ales, like Strong Scotch Ales, that are supposed to be fermented at near-lager temperatures?
 
Love it. I'm a big lager brewer and would love to try and shave some time off the process w/o sacrificing the smooth lager flavor. I brewed a Vienna lager this weekend so I am going to try the quick 'Lager Method.' I will likely keep the STC-1000 temp probe against the bucket since my heat source is a heating pad on the opposite side of the bucket from the insulated probe (vs. using a light bulb for heat).

One question: all of this is being done in primary. That includes adding gelatin? Do you harvest and re-use your yeast that now includes gelatin?

Good stuff.:mug:
 
JPrather said:
One note regarding the alternate method of dropping to 30-32 deg quickly rather than stepping it down: I heard Jamil speak on one of his podcasts that ramping down to lager temps slowly leads to less yeast off-flavors. Any thoughts on that?
Click to expand...

I have crashed rather than ramping down many times. Assuming your fermentation is finished before you do it, there are no off flavors.
 
Thanks for the replies. One other thing I wanted to ask about:

In your article you mention adding Gelatin once the beer gets under 50deg. Is there any particular reason to do this "once the beer gets under 50" rather than waiting until its crashed near freezing?

I've heard lots of people say different things about that, and some say that waiting for the beer to reach its coldest before adding Gelatin will maximize the amount of Cold Break that the gelatin can help drop out.
 
I use the "Tasty method" and it works great. I don't rush it quite that much though as I'll leave it in the last step for a week or two before I keg. I also then do "lager" the beer a couple of weeks as that really is a second phase. So end to end about 5-6 weeks.

Could I give some advice though? Your instructions done mention the specific temps you want the beer, but rather what to do with the probe etc - and assumes that everyone is employing active cooling. In MN ( and I assume the reset of the ice box of three northern US these days) I have been using my garage as the cooling source and as such I don't need to cool, but instead actively heat to keep temps where I want. The Tasty method specifies temps of the wort so it doesn't make any assumptions about how the user is getting there.

Great article!
 
I brewed and kegged a doppelbock using your method. It turned out fantastic...thanks.
 
Denny said:
FWIW, Greg Noonan talked about this schedule in his book "New Brewing Lager beer" 30 years ago, and he was quoting from the German text by Narziss, which is far older than that. It's great that Tasty and Marshall are publicizing a technique that works so well, but let's give credit where it's due.
Click to expand...


Totally agreed! I've never read that book... I should probably grab it ;)
 
FlyDoctor said:
Of course Denny. To be fair - Tasty is the first to point out that the method is not his. At least on the BN shows.
Click to expand...

I've actually never heard him take credit for the method he talks about it, it seems he's very quick to point out it's more of a play on the Narziss method. I've admittedly never read Noonan's book, hadn't even heard of it until recently, and I was mucking around with speeding up lager brewing before I heard Tasty talk about it. Even so, I'm not sure there's much any of us "new" brewers can come up with that hasn't already been discussed or done before us, which is pretty incredible!

I don’t take credit for developing this method, rather I was inspired by smaller craft breweries making tasty lager beers who I assumed are forced to go grain to glass quickly just to maintain their business. I simply wondered, “if they can do it, why can’t we?”
Click to expand...

My hunch is, "they" were likely inspired by the likes of Narziss and Noonan.

I also admit I've not read any actual Narziss texts, mostly for linquistic reasons, but from what I've found online over the last couple years, it seems he advocated for a method wherein the wort was chilled to near freezing, most cold break is removed, the wort warm back up to cool pitching temp (41˚F), then temps are ramped gently to encourage attenuation. Kai's write-up was the most cohesive I could find.

I did some poking around and found that Noonan recommends lagering for at least 1 week per 2 °Plato of original gravity-- so for a 1.048 OG Pils, the lagering portion would take 2 weeks along, after primary fermentation; Bock and other big beers can lager for as long as 100+ days. I'm far too impatient for that :mug:
 
Hey Brulosopher, I don't mean to question your technique too much, but have any beers produced using this method won any awards in competition? I can see the nice pictures of clear beer, but am skeptical of the flavor is really the same as the traditional long lager method. I would love to try this method as helles is one of my favorite styles, but I am worried about losing a batch (I guess all I'd have to do to save it would be continue lagering ).
 
I just bottled my first lager, a Schwarzbier, which was fermented using the quick lager method. I used the recipe 'Doing it in the Dark' out of Brewing Classic Styles. I used the quick lager method, with the addendum that after a week at 34, I ramped back up to 65 to do an ale, where it sat until I had time to bottle it (just one fricking big ferm chamber for me). The sample at bottling was fantastic! No off flavors there, just crisp, roasty, goodness.

It might be a good XBMT, though, but I think maybe he did one for this? or at least did a hybrid yeast to make a lager, which would be kinda similar, with good results.
 
I'm pretty slow, but I'm still confused by the 50% attenuation. If I have a OG of 1.060 and a FG of 1.014 am I supposed to do the ramp up at 1.030 or 1.037?
 
gometz said:
Hey Brulosopher, I don't mean to question your technique too much, but have any beers produced using this method won any awards in competition? I can see the nice pictures of clear beer, but am skeptical of the flavor is really the same as the traditional long lager method. I would love to try this method as helles is one of my favorite styles, but I am worried about losing a batch (I guess all I'd have to do to save it would be continue lagering ).
Click to expand...

I totally understand! I don't enter many comps, but I have won awards (no BOS') for lagers using this "modified Narziss/Noonan" method.

ZebulonBrewer said:
I just bottled my first lager, a Schwarzbier, which was fermented using the quick lager method. I used the recipe 'Doing it in the Dark' out of Brewing Classic Styles. I used the quick lager method, with the addendum that after a week at 34, I ramped back up to 65 to do an ale, where it sat until I had time to bottle it (just one fricking big ferm chamber for me). The sample at bottling was fantastic! No off flavors there, just crisp, roasty, goodness.

It might be a good XBMT, though, but I think maybe he did one for this? or at least did a hybrid yeast to make a lager, which would be kinda similar, with good results.
Click to expand...

I have a quick vs traditional lager schedule xBmt planned, just gotta figure out how to approach it.

BurntOrngeLonghorn84 said:
I'm pretty slow, but I'm still confused by the 50% attenuation. If I have a OG of 1.060 and a FG of 1.014 am I supposed to do the ramp up at 1.030 or 1.037?
Click to expand...

(OG-expFG)/2= 50% attenuation

So...

(1.060-1.014)/2 = 1.023

But honestly, I've started ramping at ~20% attenuation and have had great results.
 
I have only tried this method once on a bohemian pilsener that I made this January with wlp800 yeast. It was a diacetyl butter bomb for 3 weeks of lagering, started to subside on week 4 and disappeared between week 5 and 6. Im guessing this is how this strain of yeast behaves but just wanted to throw my experience out there to et people know you may have to still have patience and let a lager...well lager! Beer is great now for what its worth.

I will have to try out more exbeerimentation with this next winter when I do lagers
 
Brulosopher said:
(OG-expFG)/2= 50% attenuation

So...

(1.060-1.014)/2 = 1.023

But honestly, I've started ramping at ~20% attenuation and have had great results.
Click to expand...

Are you sure this is right? It seems counter-intuitive to me. What seems intuitive to me is that with that formula you find out that 23 points is half of your expected amount of attenuation(which is 1.060-1.014=46), so 1.060-1.023 = 1.037 is 50% attenuated.
 
Maybe it's simpler to do the ramp up as the krausen begins to fall. I read that somewhere and it seemed to work great for me the one time I made a lager.
 
Raisoshi said:
Are you sure this is right? It seems counter-intuitive to me. What seems intuitive to me is that with that formula you find out that 23 points is half of your expected amount of attenuation(which is 1.060-1.014=46), so 1.060-1.023 = 1.037 is 50% attenuated.
Click to expand...

You are correct. I was just about to post the same thing.
 
mclaughlindw4 said:
Maybe it's simpler to do the ramp up as the krausen begins to fall. I read that somewhere and it seemed to work great for me the one time I made a lager.
Click to expand...

This is what I do. Krausen begins to fall and the yeast cake starts to form on the bottom of the fermenter. I've taken gravities at this time and its always around 70% done then I just set the temp up to 60 for a few days for D rest.
 
gometz said:
Hey Brulosopher, I don't mean to question your technique too much, but have any beers produced using this method won any awards in competition? I can see the nice pictures of clear beer, but am skeptical of the flavor is really the same as the traditional long lager method. I would love to try this method as helles is one of my favorite styles, but I am worried about losing a batch (I guess all I'd have to do to save it would be continue lagering ).
Click to expand...


I use this basic method (or similar) all the time.
*Chill to 48
*Day 1-5 @ gradual 1 degree a day from 48-52
*Day 6-7 @ 52-54
*Day 8-10 Take out of fermentation chamber and put in basement @60-64
*Day 10-14 Upstairs @ 66-68
Back downstairs and gradually crash to 31 in chamber about 5 degrees every 12 hours. Day 18-21 Keg. Lager and carbonate @31. Drinking by 4-6 weeks.

*Sometimes I use gelatin, sometimes not.... kind of depends on the yeast a bit. Danish Lager yeast seems to stay in suspension longer for me so I often use gelatin with that yeast.

I used this on my Dortmunder that placed 1st at St. Louis NHC first round this year. Same technique on my Dortmunder that placed 1st in KC NHC first round last year too.

This method/similar variations can absolutely make great looking AND tasting lagers.
 
Raisoshi said:
Are you sure this is right? It seems counter-intuitive to me. What seems intuitive to me is that with that formula you find out that 23 points is half of your expected amount of attenuation(which is 1.060-1.014=46), so 1.060-1.023 = 1.037 is 50% attenuated.
Click to expand...

Huh. First time I did this method was with 800 and tonight I'll be kegging 10 gal of BoPils I made with 800 18 days ago. Super clean.

brettwasbtd said:
I have only tried this method once on a bohemian pilsener that I made this January with wlp800 yeast. It was a diacetyl butter bomb for 3 weeks of lagering, started to subside on week 4 and disappeared between week 5 and 6. Im guessing this is how this strain of yeast behaves but just wanted to throw my experience out there to et people know you may have to still have patience and let a lager...well lager! Beer is great now for what its worth.

I will have to try out more exbeerimentation with this next winter when I do lagers
Click to expand...

Argh, you're right. My bad!
 
Brulosopher said:
Huh. First time I did this method was with 800 and tonight I'll be kegging 10 gal of BoPils I made with 800 18 days ago. Super clean.
Click to expand...

Well if that's the way you do it then that's the way you do it :)

I just have to adjust the number in my mind, in the way I'm used to thinking that's 77.5% attenuated, 22.5% to go.
 

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