Is there any way to test a GFCI breaker other than the test button? Mine was working fine but now it trips as soon as I plug my control panel into the outlet. I've checked the wiring at the plug and outlet and they seem fine. My control panel wiring still appears to be as it should. I checked everything for loose/broken wires etc. I ahve changed the circuit breaker out thinking that maybe it was bad. As I said, it was working fine one day and then the next day, it keeps tripping. I am wondering if it is possible to check it with a meter or something. Any help is appreciated.
Questions on testing GFCI breaker
- Thread starter fujieagle
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jsguitar
Well-Known Member
Not sure, but you may have wired the GFCI incorrectly. A common mistake I see is taking the neutral from the neutral bus bar to the outlet. Make sure it's coming directly off of the breaker to the outlet. The pigtail still goes to the neutral bus. (I'm sure you know this, but for anyone reading)
This is mine.
FWI, I'm using a three wire dryer outlet so I'm tying the neutral and ground in the GFCI panel.
Something to check anyway. Hope it helps.
EDIT:
Looking back, you said it was working fine so I assume you were testing your kettle with water when it tripped. Could be a small leak getting to your element connection.
This is mine.
FWI, I'm using a three wire dryer outlet so I'm tying the neutral and ground in the GFCI panel.
Something to check anyway. Hope it helps.
EDIT:
Looking back, you said it was working fine so I assume you were testing your kettle with water when it tripped. Could be a small leak getting to your element connection.
Yeah it's wired corrrectly. As soon as I plug my control panel in now, the breaker trips. The power switch and all switches on my panel are off. Thinking it has to be something in my panel. Checking my panel with a meter for continuity, everything seems alright. I think my next step is to unwire everything and start from scratch. But thanks for the confirmation on the breaker wiring though.
jsguitar
Well-Known Member
No prob. Sorry it didn't help.
SweetSounds
Well-Known Member
If the GFI is tripping, you're leaking current somewhere. If the test button on your GFI trips the breaker, and you can reset it, your breaker is good.
Start checking all of your 120v stuff in the panel. Make sure nothing is grounded inappropriately.
Start checking all of your 120v stuff in the panel. Make sure nothing is grounded inappropriately.
What kind of wiring schematic did you use? If it was one of PJ's that might be it. He uses the e-stop button to short a hot to ground and this would trip the GFCI if you didn't pop out the estop button before you plug in the panel.
grandequeso
Well-Known Member
You should never connect the ground wire from you brew equitment to the neutral bar in the spa panel. You system is technically considered "ungrounded". That ground wire does not get connected to anything. The little jumper between the neutral bar and the ground to you equiptment could be the source of you problems, it also creates a potential danger. Here is a senario, you have esentially tied the neutral (which carries current) from your system to the grounded parts (your kettles). You are washing your kettle in the sink, you touch the metal faucet with you hand, while one of your pumps is running across the way pumping cleaner through ... The metal faucet is grounded, the kettle has potential load connected to it. You just made yourself a conductor. And because you are tied on the line side of the gfci, maybe no gfci trip.
I attatched the page out of the nec code book as a source. read from (3) Non-Grounding Type Receptacles..... That is what you have when you are useing a three wire dryer cord.
I attatched the page out of the nec code book as a source. read from (3) Non-Grounding Type Receptacles..... That is what you have when you are useing a three wire dryer cord.
Trying to understand electricity sometimes is like trying to understand a woman (no offense to any women that may read this) but how does all that not come into play when your ground and neutral wires are bonded at the neutral buss in the service panel? I don't understand how the neutral carries current yet doesn't "ground out" back at the service panel where it all starts. So confused ......???????
jsguitar
Well-Known Member
That's actually my GFCI not the op's and it doesn't cause me any problems and I'm not concerned with it's safety. As a plug in device, it does not violate NEC code. Also, if there were any problems with the neutral it would be obvious when the 120v devices were not working properly. Further, any leak at all would trip the GFCI.
I agree that best practice would be to have a four wire outlet and have the GFCI wired appropriately for that scenario, but that will be an easy change when I upgrade that outlet. Until then, I am comfortable with this setup. I understand your concern for safety but I kind of feel you're being a Cassandra by giving dire warnings, saying how we would be laughed at on other forums (on the other thread) ect. every single time this comes up. If it makes you feel better then keep at it, but I and others will continue brewing with this set up based on our own level of comfort and understanding of our houses and our set ups.
grandequeso
Well-Known Member
If you want to see where your control panel is shorted, unplug it. Then take a meter, put it on ohms and test. L1 to ground, L2 to ground and neutral to ground, at the dryer plug, if it rings out on any of those you can start from there.
This is the problem, your gfci won't trip if the load you are getting shocked from is feed from the line side (unprotected side) of the gfci. That is what you are connecting your whole system to when you bond it like you have done. Essentially what you are creating is a parallel neutral path. I highly suggest you google search "parallel neutral path" learn more about and why it dangerous. Once you've done that... the fix is incredibly easy, just take out the jumper from your neutral bar to the case of your spa panel & you will safe.
In reference to my comment about other forums laughing at ... I wasn't being specific to any specific thread. I think its great that we are talking about how to make our brews safer. People may disagree with this or that. it does get a little funny hearing folks ramble on maybe a little too much mixing beer with electrical theory.
This is the problem, your gfci won't trip if the load you are getting shocked from is feed from the line side (unprotected side) of the gfci. That is what you are connecting your whole system to when you bond it like you have done. Essentially what you are creating is a parallel neutral path. I highly suggest you google search "parallel neutral path" learn more about and why it dangerous. Once you've done that... the fix is incredibly easy, just take out the jumper from your neutral bar to the case of your spa panel & you will safe.
In reference to my comment about other forums laughing at ... I wasn't being specific to any specific thread. I think its great that we are talking about how to make our brews safer. People may disagree with this or that. it does get a little funny hearing folks ramble on maybe a little too much mixing beer with electrical theory.
The reason that the ground and neutral are only allowed to be bonded at the main service panel is so that any unsafe currents on the grounded items return directly to the service ground. If we bond them together elsewhere (i.e. in a spa panel) then we create a parallel neutral as grandqueso mentioned. So, whats the harm you ask?
Under normal conditions, the grounding conductor (green or bare) carries no current. No current means there is no voltage drop along it, therefore anything "grounded" to this conductor is at the same potential (voltage) as ground. If you bond the neutral and ground at the sub panel, than stray currents from the neutral return could go thru the equipment ground on the electrical devices fed from this sub panel. If you isolate the neutral and ground at the sub panel, than any currents would go back to the main panel, and go to the service ground. These other currents are often referred to as objectionable currents. Mike Holt, a leading NEC expert and publisher of many books, has some good reading material on the topic.
I borrowed the photo above and attempted to use my non-existent graphic editing skills to show the potential path of these objectionable currents back to our boil kettle using the ground that we created in the spa panel. Remember that our 120V equipment such as our pump(s) are creating current on the neutral. The real neutral is GFCI protected in our setup by the breaker. The fake neutral that is colored green to be disguised as a ground has successfully bypassed the GFCI protection and is waiting to bite somebody.
Under normal conditions, the grounding conductor (green or bare) carries no current. No current means there is no voltage drop along it, therefore anything "grounded" to this conductor is at the same potential (voltage) as ground. If you bond the neutral and ground at the sub panel, than stray currents from the neutral return could go thru the equipment ground on the electrical devices fed from this sub panel. If you isolate the neutral and ground at the sub panel, than any currents would go back to the main panel, and go to the service ground. These other currents are often referred to as objectionable currents. Mike Holt, a leading NEC expert and publisher of many books, has some good reading material on the topic.
I borrowed the photo above and attempted to use my non-existent graphic editing skills to show the potential path of these objectionable currents back to our boil kettle using the ground that we created in the spa panel. Remember that our 120V equipment such as our pump(s) are creating current on the neutral. The real neutral is GFCI protected in our setup by the breaker. The fake neutral that is colored green to be disguised as a ground has successfully bypassed the GFCI protection and is waiting to bite somebody.
BradleyBrew
Well-Known Member
would a bad element cause the gfci breaker to trip instead of the breaker in the main box?
BradleyBrew
Well-Known Member
I've just heard of elements that are dry fired cause the breaker to kick off immediately once they are powered on.
I guess I should be more specific. My last post was only intended to discuss tripping of the GFCI circuit. A bad element could easily trip the breaker due to overcurrent. In the case of a GFCI breaker the result is the same.
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