Questions before beginning round 2

[CMcPherson]

So… even though my first batch was a lark, it’s been racked and in secondary. I didn’t do any testing and the juice source was questionable so I don’t have high hopes for it. I’ll still let it go as an experiment.

So now I’m ready for round 2 and I have enough knowledge to only make me dangerous.
I picked up 4 gals of fresh cider from my local orchard. Enough for two 2 gal batches.
It’s 100% juice that has been flash pasteurized.
Question #1:
Since it’s pasteurized, that means there will be no natural yeast to ferment is that correct?
I ask because I was interested in letting the natural yeast ferment one 2 gal batch and then adding commercial yeast after.
Assuming that’s the case, any addition of K Meta will have only an anti-oxidation effect, correct?
Also, I think that I understand that adding K Meta now will eliminate the possibility of MLF later?
I seem to understand that MLF is the Holy Grail of hard cider so I want to do what I can now to help it later.

Question #2:
Acid/pH testing.
I’m just a bit confused here I think.
I’m shopping for a test so that I can make note of beginning acid/pH and also monitor along the way.
I’m seeing:
Wine making pH test strips (I’m sure that they’re just standard test strips and not very accurate):
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DDWR4AQ/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Titratable Acidity Test Kit (I’m sure that this is more accurate than test strips)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0064OFVGE/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Acid test kit
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00838TMA0/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Hand held meter
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FJFEB2O/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Personally, I’d rather use a hand held electronic meter but will use whatever is most appropriate and most accurate.

 

[Maylar]

So now I’m ready for round 2 and I have enough knowledge to only make me dangerous.
I picked up 4 gals of fresh cider from my local orchard. Enough for two 2 gal batches.
It’s 100% juice that has been flash pasteurized.
Question #1:
Since it’s pasteurized, that means there will be no natural yeast to ferment is that correct?

Correct.

I ask because I was interested in letting the natural yeast ferment one 2 gal batch and then adding commercial yeast after.
Assuming that’s the case, any addition of K Meta will have only an anti-oxidation effect, correct?

K-Meta in primary is for killing bacteria and wild yeast. Not necessary for pasteurized juice. An anti oxidant is moot at that level.

Also, I think that I understand that adding K Meta now will eliminate the possibility of MLF later?
I seem to understand that MLF is the Holy Grail of hard cider so I want to do what I can now to help it later.

I highly recommend that you forgo any thoughts of MLF until you've made some incredibly good cider and you know exactly what you're doing. Learn to walk before you try to run.

Question #2:
Acid/pH testing.
I’m just a bit confused here I think.
I’m shopping for a test so that I can make note of beginning acid/pH and also monitor along the way.

Personally, I’d rather use a hand held electronic meter but will use whatever is most appropriate and most accurate.

I'll let someone else advise on this. I'm going to order an electronic meter too, just to see what it can tell me.

 

[CMcPherson]

An anti oxidant is moot at that level.

Does this mean that it's better done at bottling?
Same with Pectic Enzyme. Is that added pre-pitch or just before bottling?

Can you offer any insight on testing for acid in cider during fermentation?
What I'm reading mentions testing done for TA (I see it referred to as Total Alkalinity and Titratable Alkalinity) using a titration kit measuring in g/l testing for Malic Acid. Included is reference also to pH testing measuring on the 0-14 scale.
What it doesn't explain is at what point each is done. Or, more importantly why each is done.
What is the most commonly accepted acid testing regime throughout the fermentation process?

I know that I'm coming off a bit OCD but I didn't get anywhere near an accurate SG reading and didn't even consider a pH reading when I threw together my first batch. I just want to be sure that I'm doing what I can to insure the best possible product.

 

[citytransplant]

Same with Pectic Enzyme. Is [pectic enzyme] added pre-pitch or just before bottling?

Add pectic enzyme 12 hours before pitching yeast.

I don't test acid levels. I do take specific gravity readings however: original gravity and then again after fermentation. This is my first season making cider and I'm still trying to get the basics down. With much help from the kind folks on this forum, I'm quite pleased with what I've produced so far.

Good luck.

 

[SerifSansSerif]

Correct.

Partially wrong. Pasteurized juice has no yeast in it, but if exposed to air, it can ferment.

And cider ferments very readily.

(just correcting it for those interested in doing a wild fermentation with pasteurized juice)

 

[MarkKF]

I've never taken a ph reading. I usually take S. G. before pitching, when racking after fermentation slows and when kegging. That's helpful to get ABV but as long as you aren't adding sugar thru the roof the F. G. is the only one you need, to know it's done. I've used enzyme and I've forgot to. It doesn't really change the flavor. That's my two cents.

 

[CMcPherson]

So is acid testing only for those that press their own apple juice?

 

[Maylar]

So is acid testing only for those that press their own apple juice?

I haven't tested for acid (yet), but as I understand it people do that at bottling time to give insight into making final taste adjustments. Acidity and tannins are 2 of the key taste parameters that can be tweaked to suit.

Does this mean that it's better done at bottling?
Same with Pectic Enzyme. Is that added pre-pitch or just before bottling?

K-Meta as an antioxidant is used after primary. It's recommended to maintain about 50 ppm sulphites, though I dunno how to measure that so I just use campden tabs every other racking. For small batches that will be consumed in short term I don't bother with it at bottling.

Pectic enzyme helps the cider clear. Most effective when added just prior to pitching, but can be done in secondary too.

 

[CMcPherson]

Thank you everybody.

 

[bernardsmith]

Not an expert but there are two or three separate issues associated with the pH of the must. The first is that if the pH is too low (the acid level too high) then that can stress the yeast. You are looking for apple juice to have a pH of around 3.5. If the orchard that sold you the juice is making juice for people who drink their cider unfermented then the pH is not likely to be a problem. But if you are making meads or fruit wines then you may want to check the pH.

The second issue about pH is that knowing the pH enables you to fine tune the amount of K-meta you want to add as you age the cider. You need LESS SO2 the lower the pH. Unless you are planning to age this for years or you are making hundreds of barrels of cider for most home cider/wine makers this issue is moot - You crush a campden tablet and dissolve one in a little water and add that to each gallon of cider you are making each time you rack. That will inhibit oxidation. Again, you don't then NEED a pH meter.

The third issue has to do with taste and here pH is not the issue but TA - and in my opinion, if you are making a couple of gallons of cider then your taste buds are far better than a pH meter. Taste the cider before you bottle it. If it needs something to give it more zing then add malic acid (apples are essentially malic acid - not tartaric or citric acid). TA measures the amount of acid in the wine or cider while pH measures the strength of the acids. But your taste will tell you far better than any instrument whether the cider is too bland or too sharp or just about right.. If it is too acidic you might "neutralize" or balance the acidity with... sugar (so you will need to stabilize the cider and then add enough sweetener to correct the acid : sugar balance..

Now about MLF: the best way to deal with this at this stage in your cider making career is to use 71B as your yeast. 71B has an affinity for malic acid and it can metabolize malic and convert some of it to lactic acid. This is not the same as the bacterial action of MLF but it does change the sharp edges associated with malic acid to the far smoother edge associated with lactic acid... of course, that process takes time - about 9 months - so if you intend to drink your cider a few weeks after pitching the yeast you are not likely to taste this... If you do intend to go through an MLF process you do need to determine whether lactic acids have been produced - and that is done with a chromatographic kit. BUT - MLF in the presence of sorbates will spoil your cider... so IF you do intend to add MLF bacteria then do not stabilize the cider.

 

[CMcPherson]

Thank you!!!
I see that you are from Saratoga. I grew up in Glens Falls. I spent many Saturday nights at SPAC.

If the orchard that sold you the juice is making juice for people who drink their cider unfermented then the pH is not likely to be a problem.

That's the case so that eliminates that concern.

Unless you are planning to age this for years or you are making hundreds of barrels of cider for most home cider/wine makers this issue is moot - You crush a campden tablet and dissolve one in a little water and add that to each gallon of cider you are making each time you rack. That will inhibit oxidation. Again, you don't then NEED a pH meter.

No muli-year aging or larger than 5 gal batches for me yet.
I was planning on using powdered K-Meta instead of campden tabs because it would give me more control but I see now that level control isn't needed for me at this level.

TA measures the amount of acid in the wine or cider while pH measures the strength of the acids.

As simple as this is... this explains for me exactly what was hanging me up.

...so you will need to stabilize the cider and then add enough sweetener to correct the acid : sugar balance..

Stabilize with K- Sorbate?

Now about MLF: ... that is done with a chromatographic kit. BUT - MLF in the presence of sorbates will spoil your cider... so IF you do intend to add MLF bacteria then do not stabilize the cider.

I can now see why it's been recommended that I hold off worrying about this for now.
By "stabilizing", you mean adding K- Sorbate? That is used stop fermentation correct?

Can't this be used to test for MLF:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0064OFVUK/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[bernardsmith]

Not quite... you stabilize by first racking often enough to ensure that the remaining number of yeast cells are few and then you add K-meta and k-sorbate in tandem (together) one without the other is not effective -