questions adding honey

[butler1244]

I'm a new brewer and I recently purchased a Honey Weizen extract kit from northern brewer...it comes with 1lb of honey. From what I read on the reviews, some people added the honey with 10 minutes left in the boil, others added it immediately after boil. Also, they said the taste of honey was very subtle and hard to notice.

If I added some more honey how does this affect the beer? I was planning on adding more than the recipe called for during the end of the boil, or adding it to the secondary.

 

[GetLooseontheGoose]

You will want to put it in somewhere between last five minutes and flame out. Just like a mead, you do not want to boil the honey. Honey sounds more exotic than it really is. Usually you will hardly taste any, but I think with patients the flavor will come back out. (let beer condition for a few months) By adding more honey you will have a higher OG.

 

[birvine]

I was given a tub of 25 lb of honey so was gung-ho to add honey to a number of brews. I added it at the end of the boil then cooled and into primary. However, I detected no honey at all; I detected a warmth to the beer that I attribute to higher alcohol content and was babbling that much sooner after a few glasses!

So, it sees that a honey-flavoured grain is preferred for a honey flavoured beer.

Finally, I used honey for priming bottles in one batch and again, no particularly noticeable honey flavour.

For what it's worth I do not proclaim to have any great wisdom in beer-making and have not been bestowed with taste-buds of the beer gods, so your or others' results may be different.

B

 

[trevorc13]

Because honey is mostly sugar, it will ferment out. You can bottle with honey and get some flavor, but for the most part I think that the honey is for a higher gravity and a different mouth feel.

 

[butler1244]

Thanks for your responses. I'll plan on ending it near the end of boil. If I decide to add it to secondary, do I need to make sure it's sterilized first or is honey already sterile?

Trevorc, I see you have a citrus honey wheat bottled...did you add orange peel? If so, is that added during boil?

 

[trevorc13]

Yes I added orange and lemon peel 15 minutes before the end of the boil. Unfortunately I feel that this may have affected the head retention of the beer. I'm not sure if this is the case, but I added about an ounce total and I have zero head to the beer. My theory is that the oils in the peel killed the head. You may want to ask around about this though since it was just my first batch with citrus added.

 

[Shinglejohn]

honey addition... The great debate....
Almost as infamous as " do i need secondary?"

I have added in the last 5, at flameout, and in secondary. All three came out fantastic but different.

The more character you desire, the later you should add it. Consider the drink you are trying to make when deciding exactly how much character you want.

 

[Golddiggie]

I've had better luck adding honey during the wort cool-down stage... When your wort hits under 110-100F, add the honey. This way, you WON'T boil off all the flavors the honey has to offer. Basically, if the honey gets over ~140F you might as well use sugar.

Also, the type of honey seriously impacts any flavor you'll get from it. Clover honey will be far different than wildflower honey.

I've also added honey during secondary (in my first brew, a honey porter) and some of the flavor WAS able to come through (one pound in 5 gallons of brew is going to be subtle). If you want some noticeable honey flavor added to the brew, go with a stronger flavored honey, and add it when the wort is cooler (below 100F is best, but you still need it above about 80F in order to go into solution faster)...

There are TONS of people making mead that don't boil/heat their must at all. A great number barely heat their water at all, before adding the honey. I'm talking about getting the water up to 90-100F at most here. It requires more mixing to get the honey into solution, and you need the honey to be a liquid (crystallized honey is a *****). I used this method in one of my batches (the last one I started a couple of months back now) and it has been going great. The other batches I made, where I heated them to ~145F for a couple of minutes, took longer to ferment.

So, IF you want to add the honey before you put the wort into the primary, then do it during the cooling stage of the wort. Otherwise, add it after fermentation has been going for a week or two. Things will pick back up again since you're giving the yeast more sugar to munch on... If you want more honey flavor, then have some more on hand (and use something you like, with more flavor already) and add more as you decide... My honey porter ended up with three pounds of honey in it before it was done fermenting. I also primed with honey (didn't feel right to use white sugar in such a brew)... I'm continuing with using honey to prime, since it's easy to use... I also don't like to use white, super-processed, sugar in anything I make...

 

[butler1244]

So general consensus is to add it late or post boil. I'll probably end up adding the honey that comes with the kit as I cool the wort, then add some more a week after fermentation. I'm pretty sure the kit comes with clover honey...then add some local wildflower honey that I have on hand.

If I decided to use honey for priming, is there a guide on how much to add per bottle? Do you add it to each bottle or do a bulk prime?

Thanks again to everyone for your help

 

[Golddiggie]

Add the honey just as you would sugar, or DME, for priming (into the bottling bucket before you rack the brew into the bucket)... You'll need to use 1.25x the sugar weight in honey to prime to the same level. This is due to honey being 80% water/non-sugars.

I use the calculator in Beer Smith for how much sugar (or honey in my case) to use. So if to get the desired CO2 volume level for the brew, you might use 3 ounces of sugar, but 3.75 ounces of honey. I like to use the calculator, since it allows you to input the brew's temperature (at priming) to help figure out how much sugar to use. It also means that you get to set the CO2 volume level YOU want, not just the blind "5 ounces sugar per 5 gallons of brew" you get from the [typical] kit.

 

[butler1244]

I read up some more on honey priming while at work (great job), and one thing I read is that honey can have inconsistent amounts of sugar which can cause exploding bottles or low carbonation. Have you run into this at all or is it something I don't need to be concerned about?

 

[butler1244]

Yes I added orange and lemon peel 15 minutes before the end of the boil. Unfortunately I feel that this may have affected the head retention of the beer. I'm not sure if this is the case, but I added about an ounce total and I have zero head to the beer. My theory is that the oils in the peel killed the head. You may want to ask around about this though since it was just my first batch with citrus added.

That's interesting that it had zero head. I just ordered some raw unfiltered orange blossom honey to add instead of adding orange peel. Hopefully the honey will give it a hint of citrus without risking losing the head.

 

[Golddiggie]

I read up some more on honey priming while at work (great job), and one thing I read is that honey can have inconsistent amounts of sugar which can cause exploding bottles or low carbonation. Have you run into this at all or is it something I don't need to be concerned about?

I've been using the wildflower honey found on the grocery store shelves for priming. I also tend to prime more into the middle of a style's CO2 volume range. That way, even if it has more sugars in it, I won't go too high. If it has less, then it should still be carbonated. So far, I've had zero issue using honey. I think that with honey is captured, and bottled, these days, you have very little to worry about. For one thing, they're not just pulling it out of the honey comb going directly into jars. It's blended, so even if one hive is high, or low, in actual sugar content, the next could be the opposite, balancing things out.

If you use the same honey (apiary source, and even type) for your priming, that will also help (the way I see it)... So you can adjust as you think you need to...

Keep in mind, if you let fermentation finish in the brew (giving it enough time before bottling) then your chance of having bottle bombs is really reduced. Having good bottles also helps. I've been using the Grolsch style bottles for my brews so far (it's those, or soon to be kegs). I like the fact that there's zero waste using the bottles, and you don't need another tool (capper) in order to close them. Eventually, you'll need to replace the rubber seal, but that's after many batches. With no crimping of the top, I don't need to worry about a bottle not sealing fully, or crimping too tight and stressing the glass.

I did bottle condition/carbonate my first two batches inside plastic lined boxes (I was a little paranoid about bombs, so I protected myself)... I might still do this for future batches, that are bottled in part, or whole.

I think that people that claim honey is inconsistent are simply not using an accurate scale to weigh it (having thought about the comment for a few minutes)... I have a digital scale that goes as low as 1/8th of an ounce (in 1/8th increments for weight). If I wanted to get uber-accurate, I could use my powder scale, using it in either grams or grains to measure the honey. I think that's severe overkill though. Zero out your scale, with the measureing cup on it, add the amount of honey you'll need, then pour the heated wort over it to dissolve the honey. Pour that into the bottling bucket, once cooled to a safe temp (for the beer going onto it) and then fill the bucket with your brew... If you're concerned about it not mixing fully, use a sanitized spoon to mix it some more (carefully) and then start bottling away.

Once you've done it a few times, you might adjust the amount you use (or not) to be more your liking. I carbonated my honey porter on the low end of the range and it had a nice, thick, head on it after it had long enough in bottles (2 weeks minimum at ~70F, 3 weeks is better). I went a little higher in the range for my American amber ale... I have a pale ale and Irish amber ale that are a little ways way from being bottled... I'm probably going to target the middle of the range for both of those too (maybe a little higher)...

It's not brain surgery you know...

Above all else (as often said) RDWHAHB!

 

[weirdboy]

I think that people that claim honey is inconsistent are simply not using an accurate scale to weigh it

No, those people claim honey is inconsistent because part of it is water, and water evaporates. So, 1 pound of honey that it 18% water has less sugar than 1 pound of honey that is 10% water.

It has nothing to do with the consistency of the apiary or anything like that.


So far as priming with honey goes: You prime with such a miniscule amount of the overall fermentables in a batch that it really doesn't matter what you use in my opinion. Most people simply cannot taste the difference between corn sugar and cane/beet sugar, honey, or DME used for priming unless you are making a beer that has almost no other flavor in it. In a hefeweizen this is not the case.

 

[Golddiggie]

IF the jar is properly sealed, you won't get evaporation of the little water there is. This is also why you measure honey by WEIGHT (and all priming sugars too)... The first pound of honey I used was a jar that only held 12 ounces of water (once the honey was removed, I filled it to the same level with tap water)... Also, if you use the honey in say, a year or two (or three) you won't see enough evaporation (IF you close the top properly) to make any difference. I've had honey on the shelf for years and there was zero volume loss (so zero evaporation)...

The people that have tried my brews, primed with honey, notice a different mouthfeel compared with the same brews primed with sugar, or even straight CO2. Different in a pleasant way.

Don't be afraid to prime with honey. It has a higher sugar content than DME does. Using something that has flavor in it, as well as sugar content, isn't a bad thing. Corn sugar, is just sugar, zero flavors will be added (it's so white-bread)... For me, I'd rather use something that adds at least something to the brew, even if most people cannot tell what it is.

If you REALLY want to test it out for yourself, split a batch into 2 or 3 parts and prime each part with something different. Do one with corn sugar, one with honey (either the same you used in the brew, or one that compliments the one used in the brew) and another with either DME or cane sugar. Mark the bottles, or kegs, in a generic way (1, 2, 3) and then get some friends over to do a blind tasting. Or just try them yourself and see what YOU think...

In the end, who really cares if someone else says it won't make any difference. If YOU like the results, keep doing it. If not, then change/adjust until you find something YOU like...

 

[weirdboy]

IF the jar is properly sealed, you won't get evaporation of the little water there is.

Yes, once it's in the jar that's true. But before it gets in the jar there's a lot of opportunities for evaporation loss. Not all honeys are the same % fermentable sugars.

The people that have tried my brews, primed with honey, notice a different mouthfeel compared with the same brews primed with sugar, or even straight CO2. Different in a pleasant way.

Do you do double-blind taste tests? You can literally give someone (my wife, for instance) the same beer twice and tell her one has honey in it, and she will like the one with honey better.

 

[Golddiggie]

Yes, once it's in the jar that's true. But before it gets in the jar there's a lot of opportunities for evaporation loss. Not all honeys are the same % fermentable sugars.

You have solid proof of this?? I seriously doubt that a harvest of honey will sit around long enough, before being put into jars, for you to get enough evaporation to make any difference. The % of fermentable sugars are close enough to not really impact things here. Hence the general rule of using 1.25x sugar weight when using honey. IF you want to ultra-analyze this, go ahead, but you're the minority.

Do you do double-blind taste tests? You can literally give someone (my wife, for instance) the same beer twice and tell her one has honey in it, and she will like the one with honey better.

I don't, since I don't really care (right now) about comparing. I've had good results (to date) with using honey so why F with something that works? I am planning on making a batch, and splitting it up, to compare carbonating with honey and using CO2. That will need to wait until I have my kegging setup though, so probably a month (or two) away... I will be using either 2.5 or 3 gallon kegs for the split batch for that test.

Also, if you bothered to run the numbers, a shift of just 8% water content won't be critical (or really even all that important) if you carb to the middle of a style range. A 5% shift in sugar content/amount will impact a brew [maybe] 0.1 CO2 volumes.

We're NOT talking about brain surgery level precision where you need to worry if the honey is more, or less, water content. Going by the 'rule of thumb' that it's 80% sugar will give you good results (without bottle bombs)... I would NOT use the '5 ounces of sugar' that most kits/recipes call for since it's a very generic amount. Especially since brew temperature impacts how much sugar you'll need to use.

I would also say that honey you find in the grocery store probably has more consistent sugar/honey ratios than what you'll get from a small apiary. But, unless you actually have access to hardware to check how much sugar content is in each bottle/jar of honey, you'll probably never know. There ARE charts out there that will list what a type of honey has in it, if you care to look for them.

 

[butler1244]

Do you do double-blind taste tests? You can literally give someone (my wife, for instance) the same beer twice and tell her one has honey in it, and she will like the one with honey better.

That's too funny, but makes sense. If you make one seem fancier or better, then 9 out of 10 times people will say they like that one more.

You guys supplied me with a lot of good information...thanks again. I'll end up priming some with honey and some with corn sugar and see if I notice a big difference.

 

[ThereThere]

I added some honey directly to my primary after about 5 days once the krausen subsided cause I am using my secondary for another beer. Does this make me a bad person?

 

[birvine]

Yes! LOL!!

B