Questions about extract kits

[Vintage Iron]

I have a question that I've always wondered about. Keep in mind, I'm very GREEN on this hobby, so don't judge me for "dumb questions". LOL

Anyway, my question revolves around the directions that came with the Northern Brewer kits that I've brewed so far. All three of the kits I've used, come with both extract malts AND some grains with a small brew bag-sock to put them in. The directions usually say:

1) Gather and heat 3 gallons of water
2) Put grains in bag and steep for 20min or until the temp gets to 170deg.

That's where my question comes about... Which is more important in this case; 20 minutes, or 170 deg? The reason I ask is because my Turkey burner will get that water up to 170 in about 5 min, which doesn't seem to be enough steep time to me. What I usually do is run the water up into the low 160's, then kill the burner for about 12-15min, letting the grains steep, then refire and bring up to upper 160's-170deg before removing the grain bag.

I know that extract kits are a more simplified version of true all-grain brewing, so I'm hoping someone with more experience/thoughts will chime in on what is more important for this steeping...time or temp?

 

[flars]

Time is more important than temperature except you don't want to get the grains too hot. It was thought that tannin extraction would occur at over 170°F. Some tannins may be extracted but a brewing water pH of 6.0 or greater will readily extract tannins from the grain husks. I sometimes begin the steep in cold water on my stove top. When I heat the water with less the full power it takes about 20 minutes to reach 165°F. I haven't noticed tannins being extracted even though my water has a pH of 7.4. Possibly don't notice any flavor from tannins because of the small amount of grains steeped even with the elevated pH.

You will lose some flavor and color contribution to your beer if you do steep for less than 20 minutes.

I rinse the steeped grains with warm water to extract more color and flavor from the grains. That is not in the instructions but why not get as much as possible out of the grains. With the moderate steeping temperature I don't mind if the grains actually steep for 45 minutes. I'm in no rush anymore to get the brewing done as fast as possible.

 

[Amadeo38]

I see what they’re trying to do with the instructions but it’s clearly poorly elaborated. Supposedly the majority of extraction from grains occurs within 20 minutes. When we brew all-grain, the simplest method is to steep at a single temperature the entire time, most commonly 148-152. To put it simply, the lower and higher temperatures extract different types of “fermentables” or “non-fermentables”, respectively. The instructions appear to be asking you to bring your water slowly through this range to get a nice blend of alpha and beta amylase from your steeping grains. I would start steeping at 145 and tune the burner in so that it slowly rises to 160 over the course of 20 minutes.

Like the previous post says, try not to bring your grains above 170F to avoid possible tannin extraction.

 

[whiskeyjack]

What you are doing is fine. Like previously mentioned put them in sooner if you want and let them steep the entire time until around 170. It's usually just steeping grains that don't need a proper mash so any temp works

 

[RM-MN]

All the above are correct. Now, think ahead. A long way down the road (like maybe tomorrow or next year) you will decide that you are ready to go to all grain brewing and get more choices and new adventures. At this point the temperature becomes much more important as the conversion from starches in the malted grains to sugars that you can ferment into alcohol happens in a quite small range of temperatures. Too low and the enzymes aren't activated and you get no sugars. Too high and you destroy the enzymes and get no sugars so I recommend that as soon as possible you practice steeping your grains at the temperature that can cause starch to sugar conversion even if your grains cannot benefit from that. Try bringing the steeping water to 148 to 158 degrees before adding the grains. If you can do that every time, you can brew all grain beer.

 

[Redpappy]

I usually bing the water up to 160, drop my grains in and let them steep for 30 min. About 15 min in I dip the grains like a tea bag a few times. At 30 min I pull the grains out and add my extract .

 

[Renegade Brewer]

Yep, what he [emoji1312] said, but there are few dos and don’ts with specialty grains.

Do: mill the grains, but don’t pulverize them into flour

Do: steep at around 152 for 30 min

Do: use a grain bag

Don’t: squeeze the grain bag when removing the grains. This can result in the release of tannins.

Don’t: heat the grains to over 170 or you’ll scorch the grains resulting in astringency.

Don’t: boil the grains.

Also you may want to consider cold steeping your dark grains the night before to reduce the tannin extraction

 

[Muff]

Or just turn your burner down so at about 20 min your water temp is near 160

 

[RM-MN]

Yep, what he [emoji1312] said, but there are few dos and don’ts with specialty grains.

Do: mill the grains, but don’t pulverize them into flour

Do: steep at around 152 for 30 min

Do: use a grain bag

Don’t: squeeze the grain bag when removing the grains. This can result in the release of tannins.

Don’t: heat the grains to over 170 or you’ll scorch the grains resulting in astringency.

Don’t: boil the grains.

Also you may want to consider cold steeping your dark grains the night before to reduce the tannin extraction

You were doing pretty well except for the red ones. Some of us doing all grain BIAB do pulverize the grains to flour. We squeeze the bag like it owes us money. People who do decoctions take a portion of the mash that is thick with grain and boil it for a few minutes before returning it to the mash. None of us suffer from tannins.

The rules are slightly different for specialty grains in an extract batch but not much. Steeping is a process that is very like making tea with a tea bag. It takes longer with cooler water than with hot. You can leave the grains in and bring the water to a boil (as some instructions will have you do) without extracting tannins. The pH is the control over tannin extraction and it also requires heat to do the work but heat alone does not extract tannins. Steeping the dark grains in cool water does reduce some of the harshness.

 

[Renegade Brewer]

You’re right, I often forget about the BIAB guys. My BIAB customers ask me to mill the grain to a .25 vs the .38 my mill is normally set at. As for decotion mash, that’s not a thing anymore. There is no real reason to do one unless you are in it for the experience or a traditional outdated technique made obsolete by the highly modified malts we have access to today.

As for tannins, I follow the teachings of pope Jamil, and learned never to boil the grains, take them above 170, or squeeze the grain bag. John Palmer even teaches this in “how To Brew” which is pretty much the new Brewer’s bible.

 

[chickypad]

I don't brew those styles so I'll let others argue the decoction issue, but can we please put the squeezing thing to rest. Those of us who brew BIAB have proven over and over squeezing is not the culprit. Even John Palmer and Jamil admit there are myths in brewing that they have supported which later prove to be false - see for example the thread below. Any way, directly from How to Brew section on steeping:"Remove the grain bag from the pot, giving it a squeeze to drain the excess wort and avoid dripping on the stove".

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...-palmer-and-jamil-zainasheff-weigh-in.176837/