Question regarding Beersmith Water Profile use.

[Punkjah007]

I have been using my parents spring water to brew which is about 7.25ph so I use Lactic Acid to bring it down to a more manageable level. I am new to using brewing salts on a beer. I would like to make a stout using a profile I found. My question is; Would I still use lactic acid to bring down my pH level, then add my brewing salts? or just use the brewing salts?

Currently I am using Beersmith III.

 

[MaxStout]

The pH of the water is kind of moot, as it doesn't have much buffering capability. What's more important is the mash pH and alkalinity.

If you are brewing a stout, you likely won't need to add any acid, as the roast malts will bring down the mash pH by themselves. Also, some mash salts will lower the pH, mainly calcium chloride and calcium sulfate (gypsum).

Do you know the mineral content of the spring water? If you don't you're kind of guessing at your mash chem. You can get it tested by sending a sample to Ward Labs.

 

[doug293cz]

The pH of the water is kind of moot, as it doesn't have much buffering capability. What's more important is the mash pH and alkalinity.

If you are brewing a stout, you likely won't need to add any acid, as the roast malts will bring down the mash pH by themselves. Also, some mash salts will lower the pH, mainly calcium chloride and calcium sulfate (gypsum).

Do you know the mineral content of the spring water? If you don't you're kind of guessing at your mash chem. You can get it tested by sending a sample to Ward Labs.

Yep, it's the alkalinity and mineral content of the water that is important in determining mash pH (along with the grain bill.) If you don't know what the alkalinity and mineral content of your starting water are, then you're shooting in the dark. If the water is commercial spring water, the supplier might be able to provide the required information, but if it's from a private spring, you should get it tested. If you don't want to get it tested, then you can start with either distilled or reverse osmosis (RO) water, which both start out with ~0 minerals and 0 alkalinity. For the blank water options, you have to add all of the desired minerals yourself.

Brew on

 

[Punkjah007]

the roast malts will bring down the mash pH by themselves. Also, some mash salts will lower the pH, mainly calcium chloride and calcium sulfate (gypsum).

So it sounds if I use salts then I should forget the lactic acid because certain salts will lower the pH. Or if I wanted to use the lactic acid, then don't use salts that would lower the pH as well? Essentially, you would use one or the other, not both.

I do have the results of the Spring water test. Lately, I have been cutting it with 2 gallons of distilled water to try and cut the bicarbonates down, which was recommended to me. I actually like using their water because it is better than the city's tap water and it has a nice crisp taste to it.

pH 7.7
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 392
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.65
Cations / Anions, me/L 7.7 / 7.7 ppm
Sodium, Na 8
Potassium, K < 1
Calcium, Ca 99
Magnesium, Mg 29
Total Hardness, CaCO3 368
Nitrate, NO3-N 4.7 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 10
Chloride, Cl 26
Carbonate, CO3 < 1.0
Bicarbonate, HCO3 361
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 297
Total Phosphorus, P 0.01
Total Iron, Fe < 0.01

 

[day_trippr]

My inner Amazing Kreskin sees Reverse Osmosis water in your future

 

[mac_1103]

Yeah, that water is wicked hahd.

 

[doug293cz]

the roast malts will bring down the mash pH by themselves. Also, some mash salts will lower the pH, mainly calcium chloride and calcium sulfate (gypsum).

So it sounds if I use salts then I should forget the lactic acid because certain salts will lower the pH. Or if I wanted to use the lactic acid, then don't use salts that would lower the pH as well? Essentially, you would use one or the other, not both.

I do have the results of the Spring water test. Lately, I have been cutting it with 2 gallons of distilled water to try and cut the bicarbonates down, which was recommended to me. I actually like using their water because it is better than the city's tap water and it has a nice crisp taste to it.

pH 7.7
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 392
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.65
Cations / Anions, me/L 7.7 / 7.7 ppm
Sodium, Na 8
Potassium, K < 1
Calcium, Ca 99
Magnesium, Mg 29
Total Hardness, CaCO3 368
Nitrate, NO3-N 4.7 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 10
Chloride, Cl 26
Carbonate, CO3 < 1.0
Bicarbonate, HCO3 361
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 297
Total Phosphorus, P 0.01
Total Iron, Fe < 0.01

Salts generally don't provide large adjustments for alkalinity. A minimum level of Ca (greater than 50ppm) is needed for good enzyme action in the mash, yeast health, and to aid yeast flocculation. Sulfate and chloride ions affect flavor more than anything, with sulfate enhancing bitterness, and chloride enhancing maltiness and mouth feel. So, salts are mostly used to meet these requirements.

With the high level of alkalinity that you have, acid is going to be needed in addition to any salts that you add. This can be lactic acid, phosphoric acid, sulfuric acid, or hydrochloric acid (the first two are most common in brewing), acidulated malt (just another "natural" source of lactic acid), or acid from dark malts. Dark malts alone are probably not going to be enough with your high alkalinity.

Put your (diluted) source water profile into your brewing software, also input your target water profile, grain bill, and target mash pH. Then use whatever manipulation tools your software provides to adjust your salt, acid malt, and acid or base (never use both) additions to get into your target mash pH range, and close to your target water profile. Hitting the mash pH target is an order of magnitude more important than hitting a specific target water profile.

Brew on

 

[Punkjah007]

My inner Amazing Kreskin sees Reverse Osmosis water in your future.

Y'know, I've thought about that already a few times. Lets say I just wanted to use it for beer, and not necessarily in my house all the time. What do people buy for that?

 

[jdauria]

My inner Amazing Kreskin sees Reverse Osmosis water in your future.

Y'know, I've thought about that already a few times. Lets say I just wanted to use it for beer, and not necessarily in my house all the time. What do people buy for that?

For me, as I also have hard water, I just buy jugs of distilled water at the store. Or during Covid, I signed up with a water company and had 5 gallon jugs of DI water delivered every 2 weeks. With distilled you are starting with water that has zeros across the board, while RO has a slight amount of minerals. But you can get like 3 and 5 gallon jugs of RO water at like BJ's, Sam's Club, even some supermarket. Other option is an RO system in the house. I decided not to do that, since it wastes a lot of water to make 1 gallon of RO and in a town that has water bans every year, felt that was not the best idea. Plus RO systems can take time to produce the amount of water needed to brew a 5 gallon batch.

 

[jdauria]

Yeah, that water is wicked hahd.

Someone has watched too many Sam Adams commercials..."From Boston"

 

[mac_1103]

I've thought about that already a few times. Lets say I just wanted to use it for beer, and not necessarily in my house all the time. What do people buy for that?

Depends on what you have access to where you live.

 

[day_trippr]

My inner Amazing Kreskin sees Reverse Osmosis water in your future.

Y'know, I've thought about that already a few times. Lets say I just wanted to use it for beer, and not necessarily in my house all the time. What do people buy for that?

What size batches do you brew? I do 10 gallon batches, started with a 50 gallon per day system, but eventually upgraded it to 100 gpd, which takes roughly 5 hours to load the typical 20 gallons of brewing water needed into my 3v2p singler tier HERMS rig. That size system goes for around $200+/-. It's used almost exclusively for brewing...

Cheers!

 

[Punkjah007]

typically 5 gallons. but I try to do 2 beers within a couple days. I have 2 temp control fridges and I try to keep them parallel so the work lines up (so racking and kegging is 1 day instead of 2 days).

I'm in the Midwest. As far as I know there are no water restrictions, though when we have dry spring/summers we do try to keep usage down.

 

[MaxStout]

If you otherwise like your local tap water for other household uses, then you really only need the RO for brewing water. You don't have to set up a whole house system. You can buy a good RO system that connects to a faucet. You just need a drain for the waste water. You can get a good system for around $150, and it will pay for itself quickly. @Buckeye_Hydro is a sponsor on HBT, and Russ is very helpful if you have questions.

Once you have a system, you'll find other uses for RO water. I use mine for water in the coffee maker (no descaling!), mixing Starsan, drinking, etc.