Question about starters: cheaper/easier options?

[UndeadFred]

Okay I have been contemplating this, or possibly alternatives. What keeps someone from putting wort into a 22 Oz bottle, capping it and putting it in an oven at say 250F for an hour? I suspect the pressure would equalize at the approximate 15 PSI. That should not blow the cap nor bottle and the liquid should still hit 250. The plastic in the cap seal should be at the end of its range there but be okay. And if not, maybe sealed mylar bags? Probably when you go that far it is easier to pressure can but if you are only going to do it occasionally it might be a viable way to do it...

 

[Bellybuster]

I've successfully used pasteurized apple juice for starters.. And it is real easy although I haven't worked out the price comparison.

easiest starter going, I've been using apple juice for years when I have no wort. Seriously I have no idea why I can wort at all when I can get apple juice for 79cents a litre.
for those that are about to... I know you will.... don't knock it till you try it.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Apple juice is commonly used for starters for lacto, as it's at a good pH already. However it lacks most of the nutrients needed for propogation of yeast/bugs so if you do use apple juice, pitch a good amount of yeast nutrients to compensate. Also the different sugar composition will affect the yeasts ability to consume more complex sugars, so this is fine for single pitches but if you harvest from starters or collect yeast slurry from after fermentation this may be a problem after a couple generations.

@UndeadFred I'd rather freeze the wort than attempt that.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Double post, ignore.

 

[Owly055]

Soooooooo everything you described sounds like you do have some method to ensure you have an adequate amount... Just sayin'.

So do you just measure SG to find when you hit the FG and it still has a yeast cake on top?



Now that is quite a statement. You should contact Wyeast and White Labs and tell them how to optimize their yeast quality. (I assume you meant the most viable and/or active yeast. Same conversation as the sterilize/sanitize as you mentioned before. That is unless you do bake your plastic screwtop in the over at 500*F dfor 3 hours. Do you?)

I crop early in fermentation while active fermentation is going on...... No need to be sarcastic. Young active yeast on top of the ferment is what I'm after. I harvest from the bottom at times too, but this yeast is super active as is obvious from the time it takes it to start fermenting and the rate it ferments. It avoids the process of "washing" yeast. Of course the longer it is kept in the fridge the lower the level of activity, but I brew at least once a week.

H.W.

 

[PGEduardo]

One thing I did recently with excellent results is pull off a couple liters of hot wort from my brew and rapidly chill that down, pitching into that. The next morning I pitched that 'mini batch' into the main carboy at high krausen.

Took off like a champ, even with a notoriously slow starting Oktoberfest strain. I think this will be my go to approach with liquid strains in the future...

 

[Owly055]

Not to split hairs here but...

It is splitting hairs for practical purposes. I'm not concerned about botulism spores for obvious reasons. I'm not going to go anal about sterilization and buy and autoclave, though at one time I actually had one, believe it or not. We aren't doing surgery here, we're brewing beer. My methods are arguably lax..... I won't attempt to deny that. For example I don't use bubblers/fermentation locks anymore.....They just aren't necessary with the fermenters I use...... In over 100 brews, I have NEVER had an infection (accidental). The only off flavors I've encountered have been the result of fermenting too warm (over a year ago) when I didn't yet have a program for controlling fermentation temp within limits. Brewing is a pretty forgiving hobby if you take some care. Apparently where I live the environment is not teeming with nasty microbes as it appears to be in some areas.

H.W.

 

[rjstew]

6+L starter each time!

My lagers at ~1.05 typically require a 2.5 liter starter for a 5.5 gallon batch. Ales much less. All starters made on a stirplate a full-throttle.

Do you only make big lagers/massive ales in 10 gallon batches?

Harvest yeast from each brew and use when possible in future brews. You're brewing every two weeks so no starter is needed, just the right amount of slurry.

If you routinely require big starters like that are there effective ways to reduce their required calculated size and/ or cost. These do seem needlessly large for all but the biggest ales or big lagers. Don't get me wrong I'm all for an appropriately sized starter.

• Effective use of a stir plate will reduce the required starter size.
  
• Buy DME in bulk
  
• Make a 1.040 brew of wort and pressure can it as described in the linked articles.

Also dry yeast is cheaper and more and more starins are becoming available. But again I like the variety that liquid strains provide so am just throwing the idea out there.

Yeah, I do 11 gallon batches and my beers typically range from 7-10%. For example, my last beer was a DIPA, next beer is a breakfast stout, then 7% porter, beer after that is a quad. If my OG is 1.07 and the yeast is 2 months old, I need 533 billion cells. I have a stir plate. That equates to a 4 liter starter. For my breakfast stout with an OG of 1.084, that's 5L. However, since I only have a gallon jar, the largest starter I can make is 3L. I always like to overpitch a bit since I have to step up to make the 2nd starter anyway.

 

[Gavin C]

It is splitting hairs for practical purposes. I'm not concerned about botulism spores for obvious reasons. I'm not going to go anal about sterilization and buy and autoclave, though at one time I actually had one, believe it or not. We aren't doing surgery here, we're brewing beer. My methods are arguably lax..... I won't attempt to deny that. For example I don't use bubblers/fermentation locks anymore.....They just aren't necessary with the fermenters I use...... In over 100 brews, I have NEVER had an infection (accidental). The only off flavors I've encountered have been the result of fermenting too warm (over a year ago) when I didn't yet have a program for controlling fermentation temp within limits. Brewing is a pretty forgiving hobby if you take some care. Apparently where I live the environment is not teeming with nasty microbes as it appears to be in some areas.

H.W.

It's not splitting hairs to state that your not going to sterilize with boiling water as you said you will. It was your sarcastic remark about brewers having access to boiling water for sterilization that is the source of disagreement. Nothing else. No one was suggesting except you, that sterilization of anything other than canned wort was feasible or required.

It is very important to sterilize canned wort. Botulism is everywhere. It is not associated with slovenly brewing practices. Make some wort, don't inoculate it with yeast, don't sterilize it and you have created an ideal breeding ground for this deadly pathogen and toxin.

In a thread discussing such matters like pressure canning wort, it is misleading and entirely incorrect to suggest boiling will sterilize. It will not.

This hobby may be forgiving but botulism is not.

 

[Owly055]

It's not splitting hairs to state that your not going to sterilize with boiling water as you said you will. It was your sarcastic remark about brewers having access to boiling water for sterilization that is the source of disagreement. Nothing else. No one was suggesting except you, that sterilization of anything other than canned wort was feasible or required.

It is very important to sterilize canned wort. Botulism is everywhere. It is not associated with slovenly brewing practices. Make some wort, don't inoculate it with yeast, don't sterilize it and you have created an ideal breeding ground for this deadly pathogen and toxin.

In a thread discussing such matters like pressure canning wort, it is misleading and entirely incorrect to suggest boiling will sterilize. It will not.

This hobby may be forgiving but botulism is not.

This thread is about starters..........NOT "canning wort" as you suggest. If you look back, I was suggesting top cropping yeast.......... My comment had absolutely NOTHING to do with canning wort...... It had to do with top cropping and thus using top cropped yeast instead of using a starter.

Are you suggesting that we should pressure can top cropped yeast???? Get real!!! Look at the context instead of spouting off nonsense. Sanitizing a ladle to top crop is an entirely different topic from pressure canning wort.

Please explain........do you advocate pressure canning top cropped yeast? Or are you suggesting that I should autoclave my ladle. and presumably my container for top cropped yeast? The reality is that top cropped yeast is stored in the fridge where botulism is of ZERO concern......... If you are going to can your top cropped yeast, by all means pressure can it!! You won't get botulism...........but you won't get fermentation either.

Note that the thread title is "question about starters: cheaper easier options?" Please extract your ___ from your ___ This kind of drivel only confuses the issue. You are beginning to sound like a moron!


H.W.

 

[Gavin C]

This thread is about starters..........NOT "canning wort" as you suggest. If you look back, I was suggesting top cropping yeast.......... My comment had absolutely NOTHING to do with canning wort...... It had to do with top cropping and thus using top cropped yeast instead of using a starter.

Are you suggesting that we should pressure can top cropped yeast???? Get real!!! Look at the context instead of spouting off nonsense. Sanitizing a ladle to top crop is an entirely different topic from pressure canning wort.

Please explain........do you advocate pressure canning top cropped yeast? Or are you suggesting that I should autoclave my ladle. and presumably my container for top cropped yeast? The reality is that top cropped yeast is stored in the fridge where botulism is of ZERO concern......... If you are going to can your top cropped yeast, by all means pressure can it!! You won't get botulism...........but you won't get fermentation either.

Note that the thread title is "question about starters: cheaper easier options?" Please extract your ___ from your ___ This kind of drivel only confuses the issue. You are beginning to sound like a moron!


H.W.

You seem ...........................to be making a .............................deliberate effort to ...........................selectively read your own ............................and my own posts. Your .................................interpretation of my comments is quite puzzling to say the least but ....................then that's in all likelihood more a reflection on _____________________my inability to converse >>>>>>>>>>>>on your heavily punctuated level. ........................................................



Hope that works out well for you.

 

[passedpawn]

Hey now everyone. We're all on the same team!

If you're going to can wort, it needs to be sterile. That means 250F, which means pressure canning at 15psi.

If you're not canning wort, that is you're not saving it in closed containers at room temp, no worries. If you're boiling your wort before you use it, no worries.

If you throw around question marks and exclamation marks like they are growing on a tree out back... well, during the war those things were rationed. 2 a week per family. Because we were worried for our boys over there. Time sure have changed.

 

[UndeadFred]

Yeah, actually freezing is what I already do and it works fine. However I don't like taking up already tight freezer space. Press canning will probably be the long term result but wort plus apple juice is eure tempting...

 

[gbx]

I hate making starters too so I always repitch (the pitching rate calculators will tell you how much you need) I almost never make only 1 batch from a pack of yeast (even dry yeast). When I do need to make a starter, I will brew a 3-5gal batch of <1.040 session beer and top crop it or repitch on the cake. Making a starter you can drink makes it more fun.

 

[kombat]

What keeps someone from putting wort into a 22 Oz bottle, capping it and putting it in an oven at say 250F for an hour?

Nothing. But it won't sterilize the wort.

I suspect the pressure would equalize at the approximate 15 PSI.

I suspect it will "equalized" at 0 psi after the jar explodes. Canning jars are not meant to withstand such internal pressures. They're meant to contain a vacuum. Screwing the lid down tight will prevent air from escaping the jar (which is another crucial part of the canning process: eliminating oxygen from the liquid and headspace of the canned product), and will cause pressure to build as the jar heats until the container eventually fails and explodes.

The jars do not explode inside the canner because the lids are not screwed down air-tight. The pressure inside the jars is 15 psi, but the pressure outside the jars (i.e., in the chamber of the pressure canner) is also 15 psi, meaning the pressure is equalized and there is no stress on the jar walls. Inside a regular oven, however, the pressure remains 0 psi while the pressure in the jars builds to 15 psi, which (I suspect) will cause the jars to explode.

If it were possible to safely sterilize canned foods to 15 psi / 250 ° F in a regular oven, why would anyone ever buy a pressure canner? Why wouldn't all those people canning foods/wort just use the oven they already have?

That should not blow the cap nor bottle and the liquid should still hit 250.

I disagree. I believe the jars will explode.

If you want to safely sterilize and can wort, you must use an autoclave or pressure canner.

EDIT: Just realized you may be referring to a regular beer bottle instead of canning jars. In that case, yes, a regular beer bottle would be able to withstand 15 psi internal pressure (after all, we bottle carb many styles to higher CO2 volumes than that). However, there's still the matter of evacuating the oxygen from the liquid and headspace. Capping it would trap O2 inside the liquid and bottle, and oxygen is one of the key ingredients for the types of nasties that can contaminate your wort. Pressure canning evicts O2 from the liquid and headspace of the container.

Also, I'm not convinced that the liner in regular beer bottle caps could survive such temperatures.

 

[passedpawn]

I suspect it will "equalized" at 0 psi after the jar explodes.

lol

Yea, I think he meant bottles. Would probably work just fine in an oven. Not a bad idea really. However, I'd sure appreciate pictures of the aftermath.

 

[UndeadFred]

The liner is the catch. And yes, I mean beer bottles.. maybe even hand selected "good ones"....

I suppose experiment #1 would be to put a couple of caps in the oven at 250F for an hour. Check the liners. Most plastics can handle 250F.. what might happen here is that the seal goes on the bottle though because it becomes too soft.

I've sanitized bottles in the oven already with 100% success, but StarSan is a lot easier... I ran out that day.. did what I could.. Soda Glass is perfectly fine at 250F if you don't thermally shock.

Experiment #2 then would be to try this with water. I'd put the bottles in a bowl or kettle in the oven in case they did pop.

Experiment #3 then would be to try with 1.040 wort... and then check it 4 weeks later.. see if anything has soured, gravity changed, pH changed... etc...

The amount of O2 in the neck of the bottle.. eh.. I'd take my chances with that.. really it's not going to be much. I could purge with CO2, but I don't even know if it's worth it... Cardboard flavored starter beer would probably improve the flavor..

But I have to admit I've been using dry because it's hard to plan on which weekend I can brew and then it's even harder to have an hour on a weeknight for me.. so, something like canned wort is a great idea.. I like my beers at at least 1.055 and won't pay $16 for two vials.. so it's been dry yeast so far.. I'm finally doing it right with liquid yeast and a starter and it's been a PITA because I don't have the time during the week to do it..

I have frozen boiled (and I boil again) wort in quart mason jars, and except when I filled over the neck on one, it's worked okay.. even in that case it cracked the jar I was able to safely peel away the pieces and use the wort.. but it takes up a lot of space in the freezer.... so I can only do a couple of those at a time... So doing something else makes sense..

I just don't know if getting a canning rig is worth it though for the 8-9 brews a year I actually get to do....so that is why I'm looking at alternatives..

I am stingy enough that I'd "mini-mash" a gallon or so of Rahr 2-row for starters... but I have to do that in my "free" time...

I suppose that is what they make $4.50/lb DME for...sigh...

 

[kombat]

I've sanitized bottles in the oven already with 100% success

Bottles are an entirely different thing. You can heat a bottle up to 250° F at standard atmospheric pressure, no problem. You cannot, however, heat liquid up to 250° F at standard atmospheric pressure. The highest you can get will be 212° F, at which point it will boil. No matter how much heat you apply, the liquid itself will only be 212° F. In order to get it to 250° F, you have to prevent it from boiling, and the way you do that is by applying pressure (15 psi, to be exact).

The amount of O2 in the neck of the bottle.. eh.. I'd take my chances with that.. really it's not going to be much. I could purge with CO2, but I don't even know if it's worth it... Cardboard flavored starter beer would probably improve the flavor..

The problem isn't oxidation, it's microbial growth. Removing oxygen from the environment is a key part of canning, to reduce the ability of contaminants like clostridium botulinum from being able to gain a foothold and start reproducing in an otherwise ideal environment.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Yes but there actually would be an increase in pressure as well due to the expanding contents. The liquid would take up roughly 4.4~% more volume increasing the pressure on the gasses in the headspace of the bottle, also the process of heating up the gases will increase the pressure as well through increased kinetic energy. How much more? Not sure, I'll have to dust off ye old heat and thermal when I get home from work and try and work this out. I'm not sure it's enough to get to 15 PSI though...

Anyone know what the headspace in a typical bottle is in ml, or oz? If not I can go measure it tomorrow...

 

[Owly055]

Hey now everyone. We're all on the same team!

If you're going to can wort, it needs to be sterile. That means 250F, which means pressure canning at 15psi.

If you're not canning wort, that is you're not saving it in closed containers at room temp, no worries. If you're boiling your wort before you use it, no worries.

If you throw around question marks and exclamation marks like they are growing on a tree out back... well, during the war those things were rationed. 2 a week per family. Because we were worried for our boys over there. Time sure have changed.

I was offering an alternative to expensive starters. That alternative is top cropping....... or washing yeast. Rather than buying DME and using a stir plate for each brew, it's far more cost effective to harvest yeast from a previous brew. That in effect is using one brew as a starter for another. What after all is a starter but a small brew? I don't appreciate being battered with BS that doesn't apply........ We all know that botulism is not an issue with yeast that has been cropped and is stored in the fridge.

I mentioned before there is the third alternative of making a starter either with DME or malted grain that is ultimately incorporated into your brew. If for example your recipe calls for 12 pounds of 2 row, mash a small percentage of that in advance....without the hops, and later incorporate it into the main brew. Or use DME and alter the recipe to incorporate the DME without changing it's malt profile. There is absolutely no reason to throw away the fermented wort used for making a starter if you plan accordingly.

I always go with one of these alternatives. If I'm using a yeast that requires a starter, such as White Labs products, I always design the starter to incorporate into the brew..... It's just common sense.

It's also worth mentioning that there is a PH issue where botulism is concerned. At PH below 4.5 it can't survive..... or at least cannot reproduce. 4.8 to 5 is optimal for fermentation. Using a concentrated wort with a PH of 4.5, diluting it later to use, and adjusting it upward a few points is not rocket science, preventing botulism is not rocket science.

I apologize for losing my temper with that idiot...... It was I thought very clear what I was suggesting. The object here is to reduce the cost and labor of making starters. Which does not necessarily mean canning wort, another labor intensive process that I consider unnecessary. Let me remind you that the title of the thread is: "Question about starters: cheaper/easier options?" It's not "how to can wort".

H.W.

 

[Gavin C]

I apologize for losing my temper with that idiot......

This idiot accepts your very gracious apology. Quite the gent.

 

[motobrewer]

I apologize for losing my temper with that idiot......

how do you expect anyone to read this post? There's only 50 periods and not a single question mark!

Try using more punctuation next time.

 

[m00ps]

man I love HBT. This is my Keeping Up With the Kardashians...

 

[UndeadFred]

Bottles are an entirely different thing. You can heat a bottle up to 250° F at standard atmospheric pressure, no problem. You cannot, however, heat liquid up to 250° F at standard atmospheric pressure. The highest you can get will be 212° F, at which point it will boil. No matter how much heat you apply, the liquid itself will only be 212° F. In order to get it to 250° F, you have to prevent it from boiling, and the way you do that is by applying pressure (15 psi, to be exact).

The problem isn't oxidation, it's microbial growth. Removing oxygen from the environment is a key part of canning, to reduce the ability of contaminants like clostridium botulinum from being able to gain a foothold and start reproducing in an otherwise ideal environment.

Got it and got it..

You cap the bottle BEFORE you heat it up. when the water boils at 212F the steam will enter the small headspace and (I think) kill off whatever is in that headspace... it will also pressurize the bottle and it should be able to get the remaining liquid (which will be 99.99%, right?) to get up to 250F and 15 PSI.

PV=nRT .. n and R are constants, V should be a constant in a sealed bottle.. so P and T should go up in a linear fashion (assuming ideal gas is close enough).. and that is what I'm saying.. you'd have 250F steam in the headspace (which will kill) and the water would boil at the higher temperature with the higher pressure caused by the higher temperature.. that is how a pressurized boiler works. It's how the pressurized radiator on your car works.

It's just a thought.. it might be cool for a lot of us if we can figure it out. I think the issue might be the liner on the bottle cap but even there I am wondering if it couldn't be torn off and a nylon crush washer inserted instead at capping..

I'm brainstorming at present...

Fred

 

[UndeadFred]

Yes but there actually would be an increase in pressure as well due to the expanding contents. The liquid would take up roughly 4.4~% more volume increasing the pressure on the gasses in the headspace of the bottle, also the process of heating up the gases will increase the pressure as well through increased kinetic energy. How much more? Not sure, I'll have to dust off ye old heat and thermal when I get home from work and try and work this out. I'm not sure it's enough to get to 15 PSI though...

Anyone know what the headspace in a typical bottle is in ml, or oz? If not I can go measure it tomorrow...

Cool.. I am an ELECTRICAL engineer (Well, software now, actually but by dgree) and I tried my darndest to forget Thermodynamics after I got my degree! I know enough to be dangerous though, obviously! I just assumed this had been tried already and there was something I missed.. but maybe not...

We might be able to heat higher than 250F in this case as well. What is important isn't the 15 PSI.

What is important is for the LIQUID to get to 250F for 20-30 minutes.. or hotter..

Remember, there will be a phase transition here too I think because at some point the liquid would likely be boiling in the bottle.. but maybe I am wrong about this if the volume increase is quicker.. Don't know. I just assumed otherwise..

Okay.. if you have water in a pressure cooker, what gets that water to 250F and the headspace in the cooker to 15 PSI? The fact the vessel is closed off right? So how is that different than the bottle.. Fun thought experiment if nothing else...

Fred

 

[thekraken]

@UndeadFred, now you got my thinking about pressure canning in bottles. That could be slightly easier to use than the mason jars. Are we sure they could survive the internal pressure? Are we sure the seal could be reliably maintained? At least with mason jars you know if a seal is maintained or not which is crucial from a safety standpoint.

 

[UndeadFred]

@UndeadFred, now you got my thinking about pressure canning in bottles. That could be slightly easier to use than the mason jars. Are we sure they could survive the internal pressure? Are we sure the seal could be reliably maintained? At least with mason jars you know if a seal is maintained or not which is crucial from a safety standpoint.

I actually agree with that.. The two concerns I think are will the seal hold when heated and will the pressure rise too much.. I do know pressure canners don't need to have the jar covered with water and instructions on-line say to "add the amount of water needed to get the correct pressure".. so it all might matter... and you are right once the bottles are cooled back down they will be at atmospheric pressure internally again, and all you'd have for spoilage is.. well maybe they would end up carbonated?

Don't know. I have wild arsed ideas like this all the time..

Fred

 

[thekraken]

My canner only needs about 1.5 inches of water, I don't think pressure is depended on water quantity. After the air is evacuated the steam is what does all the work. You just need enough water in the canner to last the length of the cook.

 

[iijakii]

I hate making starters too so I always repitch (the pitching rate calculators will tell you how much you need) I almost never make only 1 batch from a pack of yeast (even dry yeast). When I do need to make a starter, I will brew a 3-5gal batch of <1.040 session beer and top crop it or repitch on the cake. Making a starter you can drink makes it more fun.

This is the best option. Especially with those PurePitch and other 200B stuff cropping up, sessions are great but you can even go pretty decent ranged.

 

[iijakii]

Also, any breweries near you? I've been hearing a lot about people running by breweries with mason jars and grabbing some slurry. This week I emailed a bunch near me and a few have said to come on down. Next week sometime I'm going to grab some chico slurry from one and a second is open to giving yeast out too, just waiting to hear what lager strain they have. I'm wanting to do a 10gal Pilsner soon and screw making multiple step starters. Getting a jar of slurry would be sweet.