Question about Dark Milds

[terrapinj]

After looking through the Mild recipes in the Brown Ale section i noticed that the vast majority of them are based off of Orfy's recipe

MO
Crystal 60
Chocolate
Fuggles

I'm not very familiar with the style but have been interested in session ales and this seems like a pretty awesome style that I def want to brew soon.

I've read the BJCP guidelines on the style a few times and am familiar with the flavor profiles necessary for the style. I'm curious if the common ingredients above are based on historical ingredients or if they are based more on the success and popularity of Orfy's recipe

Anyone with different recipes that they enjoy is welcome to post here as well

I'm thinking of doing something similar to above but with some victory or biscuit malt and using EKG with some palisades

 

[shanecb]

I was going to say, a little biscuit malt will probably make a fine addition. I like that idea. Some brown malt would be decent, as well.

 

[jfr1111]

Orfy's recipe is great and all, but from reading on various other sites, the mild category encompasses a HUGE variety of recipes and techniques. Some companies choose to go all malt while others get their colour from Invert syrup and brewer's caramel. Some milds finish roasty and dry while others are more caramel and malt oriented and don't have any roasted malts.

I remember reading somewhere that the typical homebrewer's recipe for mild is usually pretty far from what the big guys are doing. I think it was Kirsten that said so on the Perkins blog. A lot of mild recipes supposedly contain a fair to big proportions of adjuncts and sugars and we, as a whole, don't tend to do so.

But who cares ? Brew what you want and like.Biscuit/victory/special roast is not unheard of in milds. Heck, Bob's recipe uses special roast and it is ridiculously good. Plus, it think it was brewed commercially in the Staes. So there's that.

And even if you want to enter it in a competition, I very much doubt many judges have tasted the real thing in England and their perception of the style will be skewed towards homebrew examples rather than authentic commercial milds.

 

[Bithead]

I was researching milds this past spring and found the Barclay Perkins post at the link below that gives a little history. I'm still trying to get the 1917 Whitbread GA recipe on the brew schedule.

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2009/04/lets-brew-wednesday-1917-whitbread-ga.html

 

[edb23]

I brewed a mild that came out AMAZING, and it's basically the same as what you're talking about doing. here's the recipe

5lbs marris otter
Biscuit 8oz
Crystal 60L 8oz
Roasted Barley 2oz
EKG 1oz at first wort
1oz at 15
White Labs English Ale

thats for five gallons by the way

 

[terrapinj]

here's what i'm thinking

never used amber malt before but seems like it would be appropriate for this style, any feedback on amounts etc is greatly appreciated

Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal

Estimated OG: 1.037 SG
Estimated Color: 18.4 SRM
Estimated IBU: 20.9 IBUs
90min boil

6 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) 76.7 %
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM) 12.8 %
8.0 oz Amber Malt (22.0 SRM) 6.4 %
3.0 oz Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) 2.4 %
2.1 oz Chocolate Malt (450.0 SRM) 1.7 %

0.50 oz Goldings, East Kent [6.10 %] 60.0min 12.0 IBUs
0.75 oz Goldings, East Kent [6.10 %] 15.0min 8.9 IBUs

1.0 pkg SafAle English Ale (DCL/Fermentis #S-04) Yeast

 

[Pappers_]

We've just started drinking our latest beer, a Mild. I used chocolate malt, but not roasted barley. The roasty flavor comes through just enough, imho, without overwhelming. Also, mashed high, 158, to accentuate the maltiness. I didn't have any EKG, Fuggles or Willamette hops in the freezer, so used Hallertauer as a bittering hop only, for 19 IBU. 3.1% alcohol, but flavorful.

http://www.singingboysbrewing.com/Mild.html

 

[jfr1111]

here's what i'm thinking

never used amber malt before but seems like it would be appropriate for this style, any feedback on amounts etc is greatly appreciated

Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal

Estimated OG: 1.037 SG
Estimated Color: 18.4 SRM
Estimated IBU: 20.9 IBUs
90min boil

6 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) 76.7 %
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM) 12.8 %
8.0 oz Amber Malt (22.0 SRM) 6.4 %
3.0 oz Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) 2.4 %
2.1 oz Chocolate Malt (450.0 SRM) 1.7 %

0.50 oz Goldings, East Kent [6.10 %] 60.0min 12.0 IBUs
0.75 oz Goldings, East Kent [6.10 %] 15.0min 8.9 IBUs

1.0 pkg SafAle English Ale (DCL/Fermentis #S-04) Yeast

Amber malt is fine, but in small doses, especially in a light and delicate style such as this one. The cocoa and biscuity dryness it imparts can easily mess up the balance of the flavours imho, especially since you are already using choc/roasted barley and a toasty crystal. Plus, S-04 attenuates a lot.

As Pappers said, choc malt only would be fine. I'd cut the amber to 4oz and go with a single addition of choc at around 6 or 7oz.

Some milds do have flavour additions but I'd be weary going with 3/4 of an ounce at 15min. Something like 7-8 grams at flameout would be more than enough for some flavour and aroma imho.

 

[edb23]

Mine came out great with a whole ounce at 15. To my knowledge (i could be wrong) biscuit and amber are two names for the same thing. i'd personally choose either chocolate or roasted barley. Mine with two ounces of roasted barley was i think just the perfect level for me. I also mashed high which i would definitely recommend, I was at 156

 

[jfr1111]

Mine came out great with a whole ounce at 15. To my knowledge (i could be wrong) biscuit and amber are two names for the same thing. i'd personally choose either chocolate or roasted barley. Mine with two ounces of roasted barley was i think just the perfect level for me. I also mashed high which i would definitely recommend, I was at 156

Amber and biscuit are two different things, at least to my palate. Biscuit and victory are more closely related, but amber is way drier in taste. It has a funky cocoa thing going on. Milds don't need flavour or aroma additions, but if it rocks your boat, go for it.

 

[MichaelBrock]

My next brew (only my second all-grain) is going to be Reaper's version of Orfy's mild. I have never had a mild but I'm prepared to really like it. I like a balanced beer and apparently I'm one of the few Americans not obsessed with hops.

jfr1111, I have seen your posts in a number of threads on milds and brown ales and they all carry the air of experience and are well considered. Do you have a particular favorite mild recipe you can share with us?

 

[jfr1111]

My next brew (only my second all-grain) is going to be Reaper's version of Orfy's mild. I have never had a mild but I'm prepared to really like it. I like a balanced beer and apparently I'm one of the few Americans not obsessed with hops.

jfr1111, I have seen your posts in a number of threads on milds and brown ales and they all carry the air of experience and are well considered. Do you have a particular favorite mild recipe you can share with us?

Bob's mild is a thing of beauty. Jamil's mild is also very good. Bob's mild is in the recipe database here on HBT and it was my first AG. If you go there, you'll see how green I really am: it's just that mild is the style I probably read the most about on the Barclay Perkin's blog ! Jamil's mild can easily be found on the net by typing jamil dark mild in google. Bob's mild is drier and more sessionable in my mind. The first time I brewed it, I messed it up good (you'll see it if you check the thread in the recipe forum), but on rebrew, with Special Roast. Ho my. Fantastic. You can see the numbers wren't thrown hapazardly togheter.

I also have my recipe that I like, but I have reservations with people brewing it, because I don't have the credentials Bob, Orfy or other established members of this board have. It looks a lot like Jamil's recipe with a few tweaks:

1.035 OG

87% MO
6% Muntons Medium Crystal
3% Bairds Extra Dark Crystal
4% Uk Chocolate

Fuggles for 18 IBU
Mash 158F

SafAle S-04 for yeast.

I also tried a few other formulations, namely for lower gravity milds, but they all pretty much sucked.

 

[coypoo]

How important is it to use British malts as opposed to American? Night and day difference?

 

[bierhaus15]

How important is it to use British malts as opposed to American? Night and day difference?

Yup.

British malts have always had a level of complexity and richness that I've not got from their American counterparts. Much of this has to do with their grain varieties and malting process.

Also, Mild is somewhat of a catch-all term for a low gravity, dark beer without much hop character. As someone said, most Americans (and lots of Brits) have never had one, so they tend to essentially take the form of a mini-porter or a darker brown ale. I think the key to a "good" mild is a UK base malt, blend of dark crystal malts, some character grains like brown malt or amber, and just a touch of chocolate or roasted malt. Brown malt and pale chocolate are the MVP of milds, IMO.

 

[jfr1111]

How important is it to use British malts as opposed to American? Night and day difference?

I wouldn't say night and day, but MO makes a good bit of difference. It is more flavourful and has a biscuit character. You could always use 2-row and some biscuit, amber or special roast.

 

[PantherCity]

I recall hearing Dr. Charles Banforth on The brewing Network (can't remember which show) talk about milds and how most versions brewed in America are way off. He said that the traditional milds in Britain are more caramel forward and don't have a roast note. He was lamenting that Americans make them like little Brown porters or roasty brown ales. He didn't offer up a malt bill, so I don't know. Jamil was agreeing with him. My only attempt came out too dry. I think next time I'm going to load up on the simpson's medium crystal with a touch of dark crystal and some chocolate(<4oz) and some characterful English yeast and mash high. Maris otter base of course.

 

[Ølbart]

Among the 16 more or less authentic mild ale recipes collected in Graham Wheeler's Brew Your Own British Real Ale, some are actually fairly roasty, with as much as 245 grams of black malt for a 19 litre batch (this for a 'festival mild' at OG 1.054, with at least one of the more typical session milds using as much as 200 grams). Some use loads of crystal/caramel malt, others use tiny amounts or no crystal at all.

Very few of them use actual mild ale malt.

 

[14thstreet]

Amber malt is fine, but in small doses, especially in a light and delicate style such as this one. The cocoa and biscuity dryness it imparts can easily mess up the balance of the flavours imho, especially since you are already using choc/roasted barley and a toasty crystal. Plus, S-04 attenuates a lot.

As Pappers said, choc malt only would be fine. I'd cut the amber to 4oz and go with a single addition of choc at around 6 or 7oz.

Wow. Where are your taste buds? You make amber malt sound like it's stronger in flavor than chocolate, which is a darker kilned malt! I've used 10% amber in a nut brown and did not get cocoa dryness. If I used the same amount of chocolate...

Maybe it's the maltster, what Amber malt have you used? I've used Crisp.

 

[jfr1111]

Wow. Where are your taste buds? You make amber malt sound like it's stronger in flavor than chocolate, which is a darker kilned malt! I've used 10% amber in a nut brown and did not get cocoa dryness. If I used the same amount of chocolate...

Maybe it's the maltster, what Amber malt have you used? I've used Crisp.

It really depends on the beer though: if your nut brown was 1.050 and more hopped, it's a whole different ball game. Milds are subtle beers with not a whole lot of body. The balance of flavours is very important and if you are already using MO as a base, you don't need a whole lot of biscuity flavours going on in there. Don't get me wrong. I like Amber malt. But it's certainly not something I'd put 10% of in a mild. Choc also needs to be used in restraint.

I'm a big believer in less is more and erring on the safe side on a first brew. Plus, there can be a difference between malters: I know there is when it comes to brown malt. I used Bairds btw.

 

[14thstreet]

I'll agree with you on all your points. Problem is though when I used it, I don't think I tasted it at all. I'd hate to think my threshold is so high (insensitive) for these british malts because I've brewed those styles the most!

 

[jfr1111]

I'll agree with you on all your points. Problem is though when I used it, I don't think I tasted it at all. I'd hate to think my threshold is so high (insensitive) for these british malts because I've brewed those styles the most!

Maybe the crisp is mellower. I think Crisp brown malt is also mellower, because Fawcett's brown certainly isn't mellow.

It also all comes down to personal preference. I love special roast and add it to many of my beers in a small percentage but some people simply cannot stand its tangy/sourdoughy character.

 

[jfr1111]

Among the 16 more or less authentic mild ale recipes collected in Graham Wheeler's Brew Your Own British Real Ale, some are actually fairly roasty, with as much as 245 grams of black malt for a 19 litre batch (this for a 'festival mild' at OG 1.054, with at least one of the more typical session milds using as much as 200 grams). Some use loads of crystal/caramel malt, others use tiny amounts or no crystal at all.

Very few of them use actual mild ale malt.

I don't want to open a can of worm or anything, especially since I'm very, very far from being a specialist on real ale, but there's quite a bit of shall we say "controversy" surrounding this book. Namely, there have been reports of commercial brewers clearly indicating that the recipe for their beer was flat out wrong. But such is probably the case for many of the "clone X beer" type of book. They are more of an indication on how to replicate them on a homebrew scale with what is available to the hombrewer than a definitive from the horse's mouth recipe.

The brown porter thing probably comes down to the BJCP style guidelines who i think described them as such.

 

[KingBrianI]

I don't want to open a can of worm or anything, especially since I'm very, very far from being a specialist on real ale, but there's quite a bit of shall we say "controversy" surrounding this book. Namely, there have been reports of commercial brewers clearly indicating that the recipe for their beer was flat out wrong. But such is probably the case for many of the "clone X beer" type of book. They are more of an indication on how to replicate them on a homebrew scale with what is available to the hombrewer than a definitive from the horse's mouth recipe.

The brown porter thing probably comes down to the BCJP style guidelines who describe them as such.

I think that in trying to "dumb down" the recipes to appeal to the widest audience, Graham simplified the grain bills to a point that they no longer match the commercial recipe. For instance, the use of black malt for color compensation when the breweries use an invert sugar or brewers caramel. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I'd like to know the exact recipe, not the dumbed-down version. I've no doubt Graham had access to at least many of the actual recipes, he just chose not to publish the information.

I think this probably applies to the base grains as well. It's been a while since I've looked at my copy, and I can't remember whether he distinguishes between base grains, but it wouldn't surprise me if he has dumbed that down too.

 

[jfr1111]

i think that in trying to "dumb down" the recipes to appeal to the widest audience, graham simplified the grain bills to a point that they no longer match the commercial recipe. For instance, the use of black malt for color compensation when the breweries use an invert sugar or brewers caramel. Maybe i'm in the minority, but i'd like to know the exact recipe, not the dumbed-down version. I've no doubt graham had access to at least many of the actual recipes, he just chose not to publish the information.

I think this probably applies to the base grains as well. It's been a while since i've looked at my copy, and i can't remember whether he distinguishes between base grains, but it wouldn't surprise me if he has dumbed that down too.

You're bolder than I am, and you also caught my ninja edit

 

[PantherCity]

What a crock of ****! What's the point of publishing a book on a very specific topic for a small corner of a niche market and then "dumb it down?"

 

[KingBrianI]

You're bolder than I am, and you also caught my ninja edit

What a crock of ****! What's the point of publishing a book on a very specific topic for a small corner of a niche market and then "dumb it down?"

The book definitely has its place, and is a good read, but Graham did take a peculiar stance when it came to several aspects of the book. I do suggest giving it a read though, as there is information to be gleaned from its reading.

For one, the aforementioned "dumbing-down" of recipes was disappointing, though with a bit of legwork, it's sometimes possible to figure out what should be used in place of his substitutes (e.g. if the recipe calls for white sugar and black malt then you can probably get closer to the original recipe by using an invert syrup to match the gravity and color of the subbed ingredients.

He also has an interesting approach to hops, and one that I'm not sure accurately represents how each brewery implements them. If you notice, the recipes will typically have one of two late hop schedules, at 10 minutes left in the boil, or at flameout. I think one or two beers might have both. And sometimes you are told to add "a few cones" for a dry hop. If I remember correctly, there is no mention of adjusting hop amounts for varying alpha acid content either, you just add so and so many grams and done.

My last point of contention is his stance on yeast. He advocates choosing one yeast as your house yeast and using it for all recipes for reasons of familiarity and companionship I guess. But this is a book of clones right? Anyone who has brewed more than a few batches knows that yeast selection makes a bigger difference in the final beer in most cases than malt or hop choices (especially in these bitters, milds, etc.). It would have been nice if he recommended the wyeast, white labs, or brewlab yeast that most closely approximated the particular breweries yeast. Oh well, we can often get close by spending a couple hours on google anyway.

All of this would be grounds for my execution on jimsbeerkit.com, mind. There doesn't seem to be the same reverence for the book over here in the US, but in the UK Graham has somewhat of a religious following. Questioning his recipes or methods is akin to insulting the queen to most englishmen, it seems.

Now that that's off my chest...:cross:

 

[terrapinj]

anyone made attempts or had success with making and using your own Brewer's caramel?

what would be a good amount to use in a Mild? and how best to measure it out, weight or volume?

 

[jfr1111]

All of this would be grounds for my execution on jimsbeerkit.com, mind. There doesn't seem to be the same reverence for the book over here in the US, but in the UK Graham has somewhat of a religious following. Questioning his recipes or methods is akin to insulting the queen to most englishmen, it seems.

Now that that's off my chest...:cross:

That's why I said you were bold my friend. I frequently frequent the other forum as it can be a gold mine of info, but yeah, your virtual head would be on a virtual pike right now if you had posted your comments there

 

[jfr1111]

anyone made attempts or had success with making and using your own Brewer's caramel?

what would be a good amount to use in a Mild? and how best to measure it out, weight or volume?

Unholymess.com has a recipe for making invert syrup at home. I tried my hand at it and I'm probably terrible because I followed the instructions and never got a deep colour. That or my thermometer read high.

 

[Ølbart]

Although Wheeler's book has problems, I'm sure there are other authentic mild ale recipes with some roasted character. For instance this. I'm just saying a mild doesn't need any caramel character, and that it can have some roast. Both are optional.