Question About a BJCP Judge Remark

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Raven1469

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Hello Everyone.

I sent off a Belgian Wit to a competition to see how it got judged. Everyone I let taste the beer around me said it was really good (I thought it was too!). The judges thought different.

Both judges commented that I needed to use a more characteristic yeast than what I used (which was a second generation Wyeast 3944 Belgian Wit). One also suggested that I use coriander and orange peel. I used .4oz coriander and 1.5oz fresh orange peel in the last ten min of the boil. In a 5.5 gallon batch.

From these comments, I feel like I need to up my peel and spices and also use a different yeast strain.

What do you guys think?

By the way this got a score of 26. So not very good:(
 
I've entered two competitions, one local and one national. Got a couple of certificates and a medal between the two. The judges comments were all over the place so I don't take them to heart. Will I enter again? Yes. Do I take each and every comment as gospel? No. Bottom line for me is if I like my beer and if my friends do. But will I consider their comments and suggestions for the future? Yes. Most of them. If they make sense. Consider their comments but not take them to heart.
 
I have only a bit of competition experience but I'm convinced judges look for outliers. Your been might be outstanding Belgian Wit, but tasted next to others they went with a beer that showed more Belgian yeast character and Lear presence of coriander and orange...likely too much of both.

Odds are also good the winning beer in your flight was a bit over top on ABV for a he style...not clearly over but enough to shine a bit next to the other contenders. Competition is about standing out in a crowd, in a god way, when consumed in small quantities. I been your beer is great wit, perfect by the pint, if you amp the Belgian yeast character, bump the ABV and spice it hard enough to be clearly spiced, maybe you win a medal, but it it might not be the beer you want to actually drink.
 
Thanks for the responses! I'm thinking I will move the orange peel and coriander from 10 mins left in the boil to 0 mins/flame out and let them steep as I whirlpool. Also, I usually ferment this at 64 and let rise to 68 for a diacetyl rest. I think next time I will pitch at around 65-68 and keep temps around 68-70 then ramp up to 72 (max 75) to finish off. 3944 seems to like higher a bit of higher temps.
 
As Andy pointed out, you have to match the judges' comments against your perception of reality. I had the same beer in two competitions and one of the combined five judges noted items that the others did not: lack of carbonation, lack of Belgian yeast character and oxidation. After reading that scoresheet I grabbed a bottle and didn't find any of those characteristics.
 
Where was your beer in the flight? I don't have a lot of experience, but I seem to have noticed with my feedback and others from the brew club, the later beers seem to score slightly lower vs the first few in the flight. Maybe it's a coincidence.

As others have said, don't take it to heart. I had a wheat beer that placed some tea and lemon peel into the beer. The only hops I used were Sorachi Ace b/c of their lemon characters. I had a judge say they had very subtle lemon characters and suggested I use Sorachi Ace hops to help bring out the lemon flavor. Yet I get a lot of lemon character from the beer and the other judge picked it up. So it just goes to show how everyone's palates are different.

If you like it and your friends like it, keep brewing it! Take the feedback and maybe make some changes but don't let it get to you. Brew on!
 
Also, depending on your process, you may have had more oxidation in the bottles that were judged. Light oxidation will cause staling of the malt and flavor compounds, which can make the beer taste flat and lifeless. Remember, it's not how good a beer you can brew, it's how good a beer you can present to the judges:)
 
Hello Everyone.

I sent off a Belgian Wit to a competition to see how it got judged. Everyone I let taste the beer around me said it was really good (I thought it was too!). The judges thought different.

"Everyone I let taste the beer around me said it was really good (I thought it was too!)"

There's your "Judges."

I LOVE Belgian ales above all others. For me, the fun of brewing Belgians is trying to see what flavors the yeast can coax out of the grain and hops using different mashing processes and fermentation temperature control. Getting the flavors of coriander and orange without using any coriander or orange, (for me) is the challenge.

All that said: I read some interesting studies that were conducted with some of the leading wine tasting judges in the world. In one exercise they poured 2 glasses of the exact same white wine, but put red food coloring in one, and the vast majority of judges believed they were drinking two different wines, a white and a red. They poured cheap wine in expensive bottles and expensive wine in cheap bottles, and even poured 3 glasses of the identical wine. The end result was that the supposedly best and most prestigious wine tasters in the world are nothing but a bunch of self-righteous, pretentious, frauds and snobs. I don't know if any similar studies have been done in the field of beer tasting, but I'm fairly confident that the results would probably be the same. Watch a few youtube beer reviews. "I'm getting dark fruits, apricots, Brazilian Kiwi, dank cat pee, and just a hint of Georgia red clay . . ."

Yes . . . of course. That's what I get too. ;)

... One also suggested that I use coriander and orange peel. I used .4oz coriander and 1.5oz fresh orange peel in the last ten min of the boil.

He didn't suggest you should add "more" coriander and orange peel, (which I don't believe any competent Belgian Judge would ever say). He suggested you should add some. Since you already did add those things, what does that say about his taste buds? I followed a recipe for a Belgian Tripel that called for 1/2 oz of orange peel, (also a 5.5 gallon batch). I bought the orange peel in a 1 oz package and on brew day, without paying attention, I opened it and threw the whole ounce in the last 10 minutes of the boil. It didn't ruin the batch, and it does seem to be mellowing out as it ages. Every beer is different, (obviously), but I think it's safe to say 1.5 ounces of orange peel in a 5.5 gallon batch would be most definitely noticeable.

If I was a beer Judge and had to judge barley wines they'd all lose - I've never met a barley wine I liked. The same is true if I had to Judge beer aged in wine barrels or bourbon barrels . . they'd all lose as well. If my son were a Judge no IPA would ever win anything - he despises IPA's.

My point is that all beers are different, all tastes are different, all preferences are different. Beers get high ratings based as much on hype as anything else. There was also a bunch of psychological studies conducted that show the overwhelming majority of people are basically follow the heard sheep, not leader of the pack wolves. Reading the ratings on Beer Advocate pretty much substantiates that hypothesis.

If you and your friends like it - you're winning. If a BJCP Judge who can't taste 1.5 oz of orange peel in a 5.5 gallon batch doesn't like it - who cares?
 
I have received some helpful feedback from competitions, and some useless.
One beer was judged by one judge to be too young, the other judge thought it too old. This was the same beer in the same competition. (One guy was right, the beer wasn't fresh) I have received indecipherable comments like "baby powder". (Which off flavor is that? How do I correct it?) Another deemed my beer an extract when in fact there was no extract. I got a poor score on one beer that I later realized had a bottle infection, yet neither judge realized it. In one competition every beer that medaled was exotic. Scores have been added wrong, costing me points. (He can't add?? Wow) So there's plenty of pretense out there. I'm not saying to never compete, just to take it with a grain of salt. I think you get much better feedback at a club meeting.
 
Just an FYI to the original poster, I have had success starting my ferm temp about 65F and letting temp free rise to about 75F.

Also, there has been plenty of reports showing that in competitions the beers that do well very often overemphasize the trademark characteristics of the style slightly right on the edge of style guidelines, or just "out of style" range to be noticeable, i.e. standout. "Middle of the road" interpretations of styles are generally not going to be BOS winners.
 
Competitions are a crapshoot. Either don't enter, or enter at least 3 or 4, then throw out the scoresheets that obviously came from idiots. This happens roughly 30-50% of the time these days.

Yes I'm serious.

Cheers.
 
About like BBQ competitions, you over spice your meat so it stands out in that one bite the judge takes. Would I cook like that at home? Nope! And yes some BBQ judges wrote some pretty weird things on my entry, one said ribs were boiled not smoked... after they spent 5 hours in a wood fired smoker and had a smoke ring that went all the way through!
 
Taste is an extremely variable sense. It's been proven that wine judges are highly influenced by confirmation bias and gravitate towards extremes. Furthermore they will score a wine totally different even if tasted mere hours apart. Specific flavors or outliers are more memorable. I.e. you probably don't remember brand X basic pale ale as much as that jalapeno pineapple saison even if you enjoyed the pale ale more.
I digress, but my point is I wouldn't take the judges comments too seriously, nor would I necessarily shake up my recipes based on their comments. The most important judges are you and your family/friends that you're sharing with.
 
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