Quantity vs quality

[Miraculix]

I feel your pain, Greenacarina. A local guy here is expanding, putting in a 15-barrel brewery. Exciting for us, we don't have anything like that locally.

I know the brewmaster. He and I have different ideas as to what good beer is. He's had a number of my brews, and I find his BJCP approach to assessing them to be silly. He has to--HAS TO--try to put them in a style and then decide how closely they approximate the parameters of that style.

I have a Rye beer that doesn't fit any style. It's an ale, and I'm not the only one who thinks it's a good beer. But he can't find a style to put it in, so he's confused.

I think he's totally and utterly missing the point. I want to know, is my beer good? Would you have another? He'll come back with comments like "undercarbonated for the style" when in fact, I think he overcarbonates his beer. I'm not trying to win a competition, I'm trying to make beer I relish, and others relish as well. His approach may be style appropriate but it's NOT better.

I'm about done with judging. I have enough positive feedback from others--positive feedback where they want another, and another, and not just because it's sometimes free--that I believe my beers are doing very well. No off flavors. Clean. Tasty. I'll put them in a competition (local) and the winner has off flavors! Extract twang, sour aftertaste--makes me wonder whether the judges have come to expect those flavors and then reward them.

All that ranting aside, people like what they like. But man, sometimes I cannot understand the focus on hitting a style exactly. I know, I know, it's about the only way to have a competition with possibly objective standards, but even then, judges are all over the place.

I also never got this... Why tf should I try to match expectations which were set up by somebody I do not even know? I brew to match my friends and my own taste, I do not give a single something if this matches a style or not.

A style might be a good starting point to explore possibilities, brew one beer according to style, find out what the ingredients and the process does to the taste of it and then alternate to your own liking. But that's really it!

I am going to brew a mild with 20% flaked barley and Belgian yeast next week. You know why? Because I can and because I think I might like it very much and I hope my friends do to.

 

[madscientist451]

Now here's the kicker...I was in a place with said bad beer...choking down the remains of my tasters (i hate to waste)...and a group of young 20 somethings come in. They get a flight, taste a couple of these sour beers (not purposely "sour" mind you...like infection sour)...exclaim something about craft beer and how great it was.
I am left wondering...does it even matter that the beer is any good???

I am not a beer snob by any means, but i have to wonder...in this time of massive saturation of the beer market, are the poor to mediocre beers going to prosper simply due to image or marketing?
Has anyone else experienced this?
Do i just need to go back to PBR and mind my own business??

Chris

I hate to break the news to you, but your post indicates that you are a beer snob.
You know more about how good the beer tastes than the brewer or the other patrons at the pub and then express that sentiment.
If you like PBR, that's cool, guzzle away. If people didn't like it, they wouldn't make it.
Ok, I've been at a brew pub myself with a row of tasters I thought were not all that great. But I chalk that up to being a homebrewer as well as someone who has sought out above average beers and knows what they are like.
I can brew mediocre beer all day long, (if I choose to) so why would I want to pay for it unless I was hanging with a sexy blonde at the bar? (Then it would be an "investment")
But most drinkers aren't homebrewers. They don't really know all that much about beer except what they like and don't like. Bud light is still the #1 beer in the US with almost 30% of the market with regular Bud #2 at 12% and Coors light third at less than 10%.
So its obvious that mediocre beers DO prosper due to image and marketing. But now that's ME sounding like a beer snob, because I just called the top selling beers mediocre. Oh well, time to pull a pint of homebrew.

 

[balrog]

Haha. Have you seen the whisky that is now advertised as being "aged in an IPA cask". That's a new one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mg_p7KPleRc

Oh.

No.

Surely this is the singularity tipping point?

 

[balrog]

Was just browsing a tap list for a place in Riverside, California... I hope this is a typo...

"Best Coast IPA 130 IBU 6.5% ABV Brilliant grapefruit, tropical fruit and pine aromatics followed by dank stonefruit, citrus and pine resin flavors with a dry, clean finish"

I'm hoisting the caca de toro flag. At 130 IBU, you can't tell me that you can detect anything like grapefruit or tropical fruit or a clean dry finish. Your esophagus just sustained 3rd degree burns and your taste buds are coated with something resembling gasoline, and have shut down in revolt.

I'll bet it's their best seller. Just like vomit flavored jelly belly's and sugar free haribo's, people will buy it just to see if they can survive.

"I gotta tell you, that smells like gasoline...and not in a good way"

 

[SoCal-Doug]

Don't take me too seriously. It's all in fun

I like IPA's to a point (within reason, and with proper selection of hops and flavors). Goose island makes a fairly good one. But 150 IBU's of skunk weed just isn't my thing.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Now here's the kicker...I was in a place with said bad beer...choking down the remains of my tasters (i hate to waste)...and a group of young 20 somethings come in. They get a flight, taste a couple of these sour beers (not purposely "sour" mind you...like infection sour)...exclaim something about craft beer and how great it was.
I am left wondering...does it even matter that the beer is any good???
As long as you have all the trappings of "craft-beer-ness" and it doesn't taste like Bud Light...are there enough people out there willing to drink crappy beer?
Ok, sorry...not trying to sound like a rant.
I am not a beer snob by any means, but i have to wonder...in this time of massive saturation of the beer market, are the poor to mediocre beers going to prosper simply due to image or marketing?
Has anyone else experienced this?

I hate to break the news to you, but your post indicates that you are a beer snob.
You know more about how good the beer tastes than the brewer or the other patrons at the pub and then express that sentiment.

...

But most drinkers aren't homebrewers. They don't really know all that much about beer except what they like and don't like. Bud light is still the #1 beer in the US with almost 30% of the market with regular Bud #2 at 12% and Coors light third at less than 10%.
So its obvious that mediocre beers DO prosper due to image and marketing. But now that's ME sounding like a beer snob, because I just called the top selling beers mediocre. Oh well, time to pull a pint of homebrew.

I agree with greenacarina here and disagree with you, madscientist.

There's a difference between "beer I don't like" and "beer that has objective flaws." Sounds like greenacarina is describing beer that has objective flaws.

I don't prefer Bud Light. I consider it to be a mediocre flavor profile (what little flavor exists, anyway). But I know that Budweiser is a world-class brewing operation and there is nothing that I would call a "flaw" in the way Bud Light is brewed. It is an objectively well-brewed beer.

There are a TON of small breweries / brewpubs whose beer is NOT well-brewed. Beer that I would be ashamed to call my homebrew. Beer that turns me off to the point that I don't go to those establishments a second time.

Now, there are a lot of beer styles I'm not a fan of. Many of them are your characteristic "whales". I honestly don't like imperial stouts or barleywine [too sweet for my palate, generally]. But like many homebrewers, I've been doing this long enough that I can tell whether an imperial stout or barleywine is well-made or not, even though I don't prefer the style.

We can call out poorly-brewed beer as objectively bad beer. That's not a matter of taste. The fact that poorly-brewed beer survives in the marketplace is a sign that the hype of "craft" has drawn people who don't yet understand the difference between a well-made and a poorly-made beer, but I trust that will change over time.

I have a Rye beer that doesn't fit any style. It's an ale, and I'm not the only one who thinks it's a good beer. But he can't find a style to put it in, so he's confused.

I think he's totally and utterly missing the point. I want to know, is my beer good? Would you have another? He'll come back with comments like "undercarbonated for the style" when in fact, I think he overcarbonates his beer. I'm not trying to win a competition, I'm trying to make beer I relish, and others relish as well. His approach may be style appropriate but it's NOT better.

I'm about done with judging. I have enough positive feedback from others--positive feedback where they want another, and another, and not just because it's sometimes free--that I believe my beers are doing very well. No off flavors. Clean. Tasty. I'll put them in a competition (local) and the winner has off flavors! Extract twang, sour aftertaste--makes me wonder whether the judges have come to expect those flavors and then reward them.
...
All that ranting aside, people like what they like. But man, sometimes I cannot understand the focus on hitting a style exactly. I know, I know, it's about the only way to have a competition with possibly objective standards, but even then, judges are all over the place.

I also never got this... Why tf should I try to match expectations which were set up by somebody I do not even know? I brew to match my friends and my own taste, I do not give a single something if this matches a style or not.

A style might be a good starting point to explore possibilities, brew one beer according to style, find out what the ingredients and the process does to the taste of it and then alternate to your own liking. But that's really it!

I am going to brew a mild with 20% flaked barley and Belgian yeast next week. You know why? Because I can and because I think I might like it very much and I hope my friends do to.

I agree with you both in the sense that brewing "to style" is only necessary if you're brewing for competition. Again, like my point above, there's a difference between evaluating a beer for objective merits as to whether it's well-brewed and evaluating a beer to style.

I recently entered a competition and put my pilsner into both the "Czech Pale Premium Lager" category as well as the "German Pilsner" category. The same beer placed 1st of 5 entries in Czech Lager (BJCP cat 3) and didn't place at all in 4 entries in the Pale Bitter European Beer (BJCP cat 5). I *know* the beer is good, and there might be some judging inconsistency of course, but even before entering I thought the beer better matched Czech pils vs German pils. It seems the judging bore that out.

That said, people who get hamstrung into "style" when it's not a competition scenario are IMHO arbitrarily limiting their experience. We use beer styles to help people anchor an expectation of a beer, but sometimes if we want to brew something that tastes good but doesn't "fit the style", that's fine. In fact, that's something I do often because it's easy to find beer that's made exactly to style at the store. I've made a really nice Vienna Rye Lager, which doesn't fit any style, but it's delicious and I can't get one of those at the local liquor store.

Arguing against style guidelines with people who are attached to them is tilting at windmills. Brew what you like, and if it's delicious, it doesn't matter whether it's "to style" or not.

 

[Homercidal]

So get this; I am talking with a brewer at a nearby brewery who just happened to be a short-term member of our brewclub (He had to leave the club for official purposes by accepting the brewer position). We were talking about the quality of the beer there and I mentioned how I tasted more than 1 SOUR beer one day that was not supposed to be sour. I assumed they got some kegs mixed up, but he informs me that no, they were infected. There's been a problem lately and it seems to have started about the time they moved the brewery operations from the kitchen to a separate room. This should have been a more ideal location, and they got a biggish homebrew system to replace the smaller system they had.

Apparently this move into the new space makes it ideal for certain microbes to flourish. It's the only thing I can think of. He shares his brewroom with a good-sized smoker and whatnot. He's tried working with the management to find a solution for his fermentor temperature, and that is better, but they are still getting sour infections. He's gone over the system as much as he knows how, but when asking the management to help find a solution, he was told, "It is what it is."

Excuse me? This is supposed to be a kind of fancy eatery! Sure they can bring people in with the food, but everyone I know orders craft beer from other places when they eat there. To serve SOUR, infected beer is beyond lazy, it's terrible business! They started getting bad reviews about it. If they don't change something, pretty soon they will have a bad reputation and lose more customers.

I've always noticed a certain phenolic flavor to their hosue beers before, and that seems to have gone away after changing brewers, but not dealing with an infection issue, and then serving that infected beer, is insane! The servers claim they don't like beer and can't tell the difference. I advised he make a device to sample from the kegs prior to making them available for tapping at the bar. This would be the very minimal QC!

I didn't have a chance to talk at length about it as the brewday was finishing up, but I wonder if I should ask him if he needs some help pinpointing the problem. I'd love for the local places to make excellent beer, but I'm afraid I'm wasting my time if the managers aren't ready to accept that there is a problem to start with, and that there is likely a simple solution to fixing it. This place plans to open a second location about a 1/2 hour away, and I don't know what the plans are for brewing for both places, but maybe the solution is moving the brewery to a dedicated room in the new location?

I believe they mill grain in the brewing area now. They smoker is there, and it's readily accessible from the kitchen area. There is plenty of airflow due to the venting required for the smoker.

I feel like it should be possible to narrow this down to one or two potential causes, but I'm hesitant to go to the manager and suggest they make changes. After all, I'm just a homebrewer. (But then that's who they hired to brew for them a few months ago. Maybe them hearing it from another source would help?) It's frustrating because brewing is really pretty easy. Brewing really good beer might be a small challenge, but making decent beer, especially using the same system over and over, should be pretty easy.

 

[Miraculix]

I agree with you bwarbiany. Those style guideline things are forced limitations that do not make sense, therefore competitions also do not make real sense to me. It is like cooking. Telling me that I can only use this and that ingredient in my apple pie? Or my steak can only be seasoned with this and that and not pan fried but only grilled.... that wouldn't make sense at all, same for trying to force guidelines on beers.

Come on, all those styles developed over time due to either circumstances (taxes, hard water, shortage of specific grains/malts etc.) or due to taste of the people, or both combined. Meaning, there was no regulatory body telling them what to do. And they keep on developing till today. I'll bet the first IPAS tasted very much different then the ones today. So why trying to make it fix in an artificial way? Is it about making great beer or about sniffing ones own farts while looking very serious when "judging" a beer according to "guidelines" and being so so so sofisticated?

Naa, that is rubbish.

 

[z-bob]

I think there's value to knowing where the lines are even if you intend to color outside them. They give you a framework or an outline.

 

[Miraculix]

Which lines do you mean? The ones when a "style" originated? For example an english ale? Then it would mean a non hopped, potentially soured, fermented barley drink.

Or do you mean the lines that somebody decided to exist, like the guidelines we have for competitions? But who gave the creator of those competition guidelines the power to say that a constantly evolving beer style is now fixed, not changeable and has to be within his own idea of this type of beer? Is he right? Is he wrong?

What kind of information should he take as a base to set up those rules? The time of origination (see above)? The last one hudnred years? The average of what the ten most "sophisticated beer nerds" think they know about a style which roots are ten times older than they themself?

So, which lines again?

 

[kaisetti]

I am left wondering...does it even matter that the beer is any good???]

Yes and no. I think it often comes down to the experience the brewery offers to the customer. You're in the PNW so I'm sure you've been to a McMennamins. Mediocre beer (and food) but the experience at many of their locations (with the exception of the strip mall locations) is unique. Beer is a social beverage, so time and place and company matters in brewery experiences. If a brewery produces average beer but appeals to the social aspects, I believe it will succeed. You might not seek its beer out in the grocery store, but you might meet up with friends for a pint at the brewery because of the experience you will have. Maybe I'm waaaay off on this one. I know my wife and I select breweries to visit based on the social aspects more than if the beer is exceptional or not; I can find those exceptional beers at the store.

 

[MaxStout]

I am left wondering...does it even matter that the beer is any good???]

Yes and no. I think it often comes down to the experience the brewery offers to the customer. You're in the PNW so I'm sure you've been to a McMennamins. Mediocre beer (and food) but the experience at many of their locations (with the exception of the strip mall locations) is unique. Beer is a social beverage, so time and place and company matters in brewery experiences. If a brewery produces average beer but appeals to the social aspects, I believe it will succeed. You might not seek its beer out in the grocery store, but you might meet up with friends for a pint at the brewery because of the experience you will have. Maybe I'm waaaay off on this one. I know my wife and I select breweries to visit based on the social aspects more than if the beer is exceptional or not; I can find those exceptional beers at the store.

That depends on what kind of establishment it is. If it is a brewpub, with food, entertainment, etc., your argument has merit. Then it is about the entire experience and it's more than just beer.

But the majority of the breweries around here, particularly the newer ones, do not have food service--maybe the occasional food truck. They serve pints and fill growlers. Few package their beer (yet), so it cannot be found in the stores. And there really isn't any other entertainment, just the person at the taps, filling glasses. Their raison d'etre is the beer, and if the beer is excellent, I'm perfectly fine with that. Anything less, and it's just another bar.

 

[kaisetti]

That depends on what kind of establishment it is. If it is a brewpub, with food, entertainment, etc., your argument has merit. Then it is about the entire experience and it's more than just beer.

But the majority of the breweries around here, particularly the newer ones, do not have food service--maybe the occasional food truck. They serve pints and fill growlers. Few package their beer (yet), so it cannot be found in the stores. And there really isn't any other entertainment, just the person at the taps, filling glasses. Their raison d'etre is the beer, and if the beer is excellent, I'm perfectly fine with that. Anything less, and it's just another bar.

I see your points. I don't necessarily see it as an"entertainment" factor but more as "experience." The nearest brewery to my house is about a mile away. The beers are decent - no one is standing in line on a Saturday morning at 5AM for a rare, limited release, and up until recently, they contracted with the nextdoor pizza parlor to deliver pizzas since they didn't have their own kitchen. However, it has always been a great place to meet up with friends after work for a pint or two. They have board games, a couple of TVs, and decent beer. Even though their beers don't blow me away and I don't seek them out anywhere other than the brewery, I still go because of the experience I can have there. There are better breweries making amazing beers within 10 miles of my house, but sometimes making the long 10 mile trek )) for great beer won't dissuade me from visiting the nearest brewery for the experience of pints with friends.

I guess my point in a round-about, non-sequitur kind of way is that my tastes and preferences for what is "good" beer are engineered by great moments with beer and not obsessing over what is "great" beer.

 

[MaxStout]

I see your points. I don't necessarily see it as an"entertainment" factor but more as "experience." The nearest brewery to my house is about a mile away. The beers are decent - no one is standing in line on a Saturday morning at 5AM for a rare, limited release, and up until recently, they contracted with the nextdoor pizza parlor to deliver pizzas since they didn't have their own kitchen. However, it has always been a great place to meet up with friends after work for a pint or two. They have board games, a couple of TVs, and decent beer. Even though their beers don't blow me away and I don't seek them out anywhere other than the brewery, I still go because of the experience I can have there. There are better breweries making amazing beers within 10 miles of my house, but sometimes making the long 10 mile trek )) for great beer won't dissuade me from visiting the nearest brewery for the experience of pints with friends.

I guess my point in a round-about, non-sequitur kind of way is that my tastes and preferences for what is "good" beer are engineered by great moments with beer and not obsessing over what is "great" beer.

Yeah, I see what you mean. Sometimes it's just good to hoist a few with friends. One of our favorite spots has really terrific beer, and decent pub grub as well. Very friendly atmosphere, no hipster snobbishness. We often meet friends there on a Saturday afternoon. I do wish more breweries had that "added value," but I realize many of them are trying to develop a following for their beer.

 

[madscientist451]

I agree with greenacarina here and disagree with you, madscientist.

There's a difference between "beer I don't like" and "beer that has objective flaws." Sounds like greenacarina is describing beer that has objective flaws.

I don't prefer Bud Light. I consider it to be a mediocre flavor profile (what little flavor exists, anyway). But I know that Budweiser is a world-class brewing operation and there is nothing that I would call a "flaw" in the way Bud Light is brewed. It is an objectively well-brewed beer.

From my reading, the OP's description of all the beer at the pub being "sour" (the objective flaw) was hyperbole inserted to make a point.
The staff at the brewery and no other drinkers there can detect it?
Sorry, but I'm somewhat skeptical. But maybe the beer did suck and he's right, I'll never know, but MY point was that the whole comment seemed somewhat snobby, even if the OP didn't mean it that way.
My apologies are offered to all that are offended.
And I never wrote that Bud was flawed so I don't know where that comment is coming from.

 

[myndflyte]

I see what you're saying. I like to try and find breweries that stand out for a reason. For example, in Cincinnati there is a brewery called Urban Artifact where all they have on tap is sour and wild yeast fermented beers. I'm sure they are taking a risk with that sort of lineup but they are specializing in those kinds of beers and they are amazing.

And that's what I like about them. Instead of trying to brew every style under the sun, they just focus on a subset and make great beer.

 

[eric19312]

Haha. Have you seen the whisky that is now advertised as being "aged in an IPA cask". That's a new one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mg_p7KPleRc

wait is this a joke? I got to try Glenfiddich is good stuff.

 

[passedpawn]

wait is this a joke? I got to try Glenfiddich is good stuff.

Not a joke. Commercial is playing on TV.

 

[eric19312]

already too many posts to read whole thread but I'd say I see the microbrew world big enough for different kinds of breweries.

You have your destination breweries. I'll drive an hour to taste their beer and further than that for a special release. I don't go back often because driving and hour+ and drinking beer are not really compatible in my book. Tasting beer yes but I'm gonna spend half a day and only get to taste? I travel for work a bit and do look for destination breweries when I visit new cities and will seek them out. Hopefully they have packaged beer or a growler I can take home to enjoy later and share my experience with friends here. These destination breweries rely on sites like beeradvocate, untaped, instagram to attract the beer cognoscenti, get them to post to social media and keep coming back. This is a fickle crowd and they are always looking for that next whale. Something at least a few of the other bearded ironic trucker hatted hipster beer cognoscenti haven't had a chance to try yet. Especially when it involves standing in line overnight to get a chance to buy it.

Then there are local taprooms. We have a decent one in my town. Beer is generally good. Never selling anything infected or other obvious flaws. But not breaking new ground either. Beers are decent fits to style and they have usually 11 on tap of which about 7 are standards. They are always busy and seem to have a decent business. Just celebrated 6th anniversary and every years seems to be stronger than year before. I go to this brewery at least once a week and know most of the regulars, taproom staff and brewers at least by sight. Dog friendly so often it's a stop on my dog walks. I like the experience even if I'm not interested in posting pics of my pints on social media or texting homebrew friends about this awesome new beer they have to try.

Both of these models are good but I cringe when I read a post like the OPs and wonder if it might be my local that he felt was offering mediocre beer. I doubt it because of the mention of obvious flaws but hard to tell what was meant. If 20 people showed up, had a good time, thought the beer was tasty, and left with smiles on their faces I suspect the beer was perhaps middle of the road craft quality and OP wears a beard and an ironic trucker hat...

 

[tomakana]

Since I've gotten into homebrewing, I've been noticing more and more the number of small breweries around (SE Pennsylvania), and when I travel, I've started looking more and more for the local (not necessarily craft) breweries, primarily so I can experience as many different types and levels of quality as I can. I agree with the general feeling that the proliferation doesn't necessarily lend itself to higher average quality, but I think that's also a temporary thing...as the market in various areas takes over, the quality will rise to the top.

The biggest change I've started to notice is that even craft breweries are starting to experiment and market more styles. A couple years ago, it felt like anything that wasn't a macro beer was an IPA - which was great if you liked IPAs (which I didn't at the time). Now, all the craft breweries or tap houses I go to have a pretty wide variety of styles available, including some I have to look up to figure out what they are. Now, I generally have no idea whether they "meet the style" but I know whether I like them or not, and that leads me to try others that may be like them at other places, and to look into how to brew them someday.

The upside is that I've come across some styles and specific beers that I otherwise may have never encountered, and I've had some shockingly good brews in the process. I've almost never encountered something that I genuinely couldn't drink. The only downside I've found is that a lot of the breweries are rotating things through quickly enough, that I often can't come back to something that I loved...that just means I try something else.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Excuse me? This is supposed to be a kind of fancy eatery! Sure they can bring people in with the food, but everyone I know orders craft beer from other places when they eat there. To serve SOUR, infected beer is beyond lazy, it's terrible business! They started getting bad reviews about it. If they don't change something, pretty soon they will have a bad reputation and lose more customers.

This reminds me of a place near me. For years I basically didn't even go there because their beer was terrible. They had a great location (in a strip mall next to a big movie theater), decent food, but the beer sucked. They would market macro beer specials for happy hour instead of their own stuff, and their menu would highlight the wine pairings for their entrees.

Luckily, as craft beer really "hit" and as the market became more discerning, they saw the light. I don't know if they changed brewers, but their house beer improved, their guest tap list improved from macro to a really good craft list, and now it's a place I'll frequent. Sometimes competition spurs improvement.

Perhaps you should talk to the managers at this brewpub. Tell them your concerns. Ask them to look at the sales figures of the other craft taps versus their own. Ask them to calculate what the improvement would be to their bottom line if more of those pints were their own stuff, as in-house beer makes MUCH better margins than craft that they're buying and merely marking up. I'm sure they'd see the light.

I agree with you bwarbiany. Those style guideline things are forced limitations that do not make sense, therefore competitions also do not make real sense to me. It is like cooking. Telling me that I can only use this and that ingredient in my apple pie? Or my steak can only be seasoned with this and that and not pan fried but only grilled.... that wouldn't make sense at all, same for trying to force guidelines on beers.

I don't know who you're agreeing with, but you've stepped so far beyond what I said in my previous post that it sure ain't me.

Nobody is telling you what to put in your pie. But if you go to a pie competition and one person brings apple pie, another brings chocolate cream pie, another brings rhubarb, the fourth brings chicken pot pie, and the fifth brings shepherd's pie, how are you going to meaningfully make a comparison between them?

The Kansas City Barbecue Society has guidelines for barbecue competitions. Those guidelines are actually quite different from what you'd probably make at home or eat at a restaurant. That doesn't mean the barbecue you make at home has to be to "KCBS" expectations.

Competitions serve a purpose. I often don't enter because I haven't brewed "to style". But when I brew something that fits a style, it's good to get the judges' feedback. The most recent competition I entered, I found myself reading the feedback and most of it was things I felt were accurate, and thus it helped to validate my own taste. There were a few score sheets that I thought were perhaps off, but I'm going to take those sheets and reflect on them while tasting the beer to see if maybe there's something accurate in there that I missed.

I see your points. I don't necessarily see it as an"entertainment" factor but more as "experience." The nearest brewery to my house is about a mile away. The beers are decent - no one is standing in line on a Saturday morning at 5AM for a rare, limited release, and up until recently, they contracted with the nextdoor pizza parlor to deliver pizzas since they didn't have their own kitchen. However, it has always been a great place to meet up with friends after work for a pint or two. They have board games, a couple of TVs, and decent beer. Even though their beers don't blow me away and I don't seek them out anywhere other than the brewery, I still go because of the experience I can have there. There are better breweries making amazing beers within 10 miles of my house, but sometimes making the long 10 mile trek )) for great beer won't dissuade me from visiting the nearest brewery for the experience of pints with friends.

Then there are local taprooms. We have a decent one in my town. Beer is generally good. Never selling anything infected or other obvious flaws. But not breaking new ground either. Beers are decent fits to style and they have usually 11 on tap of which about 7 are standards. They are always busy and seem to have a decent business. Just celebrated 6th anniversary and every years seems to be stronger than year before. I go to this brewery at least once a week and know most of the regulars, taproom staff and brewers at least by sight. Dog friendly so often it's a stop on my dog walks. I like the experience even if I'm not interested in posting pics of my pints on social media or texting homebrew friends about this awesome new beer they have to try.

This is a good point. What I think it really underscores is that we're not always looking for world-class beer that blows me away. There is a certain level beyond which beer is "good enough" to warrant going back to a brewery.

The same is true of restaurants. I don't eat at fancy restaurants all the time. In fact, I don't eat at "amazing" restaurants all the time. I do have a minimum floor of taste/quality, however, that will keep me going back to a restaurant.

Near me is Laguna Beach Beer Company (which non-intuitively is 15 miles from Laguna Beach). The beer is decent. It's not stellar. There are a few recipes that I think are subjectively not so great, but the beer doesn't have any outright flaws or off flavors. It's easily a good enough joint that if I want to go grab a few pints, I'll happily go there.

My take is that the brewery OP is describing does NOT meet this level of minimum quality. I was just at another brewery here in OC a few weeks ago that after a single pint, my girlfriend and I walked out and went to another brewery nearby because the beer was simply not good. It wasn't a subjective assessment. The beer just wasn't good. Yet there were plenty of people in the joint.

From my reading, the OP's description of all the beer at the pub being "sour" (the objective flaw) was hyperbole inserted to make a point.
The staff at the brewery and no other drinkers there can detect it?
Sorry, but I'm somewhat skeptical. But maybe the beer did suck and he's right, I'll never know, but MY point was that the whole comment seemed somewhat snobby, even if the OP didn't mean it that way.
My apologies are offered to all that are offended.
And I never wrote that Bud was flawed so I don't know where that comment is coming from.

My impression of the OP was that he was talking about objectively flawed beer. And I will tell you that I've been at MANY breweries over the years that have objectively flawed beer, and remained in business. Perhaps some are like Homercidal's example [that I echoed with a brewpub example I used] above where the brewer and the servers know it's bad beer but they're making enough money not to fix it. Perhaps they just don't realize that it's bad, and it's a market where the consumer doesn't realize it, and they're surviving. But it seemed like he was discussing objective rather than subjective flaws.

FYI I wasn't insinuating that you said Bud was flawed. My take was that you were calling them out as a beer that was subjectively bad--to the palate of a typical craft beer drinker--and suggesting that perhaps OP was substituting his own preferences for those of other drinkers in regards to a beer that you're skeptical that it's objectively bad.

My point is that there are breweries that survive for years with objectively flawed beer, so it's not necessarily correct to assume that what he's tasting isn't real. I've tasted objectively bad beer at many breweries.

And don't worry, I wasn't offended. You'll have to try FAR harder if you want to offend me!

 

[Miraculix]

I think the comparison with pies does not match. We are talking about beer, where the main ingredients are almost everytime the samein each style. This does not apply to all those pies you have listed.

I get what you personally get out of those competitions, feedback. But you could surely get the same feedback from somewhere else without being limited in what to brew. and to quote myself regarding the guidelines of those competitions (I am a lazy bastard, I know):

"Which lines do you mean? The ones when a "style" originated? For example an english ale? Then it would mean a non hopped, potentially soured, fermented barley drink.

Or do you mean the lines that somebody decided to exist, like the guidelines we have for competitions? But who gave the creator of those competition guidelines the power to say that a constantly evolving beer style is now fixed, not changeable and has to be within his own idea of this type of beer? Is he right? Is he wrong?

What kind of information should he take as a base to set up those rules? The time of origination (see above)? The last one hudnred years? The average of what the ten most "sophisticated beer nerds" think they know about a style which roots are ten times older than they themself?

So, which lines again?"

 

[Morrey]

To serve SOUR, infected beer is beyond lazy, it's terrible business!

I've always noticed a certain phenolic flavor to their hosue beers before, and then serving that infected beer, is insane!

I'd love for the local places to make excellent beer, but I'm afraid I'm wasting my time if the managers aren't ready to accept that there is a problem to start with.

I cant agree more, Homercidal. There are 3 local small scale breweries that my wife and I visit. Two of them are owned and operated by successful professionals who started as home brewers, and these two breweries clearly have a passion for brewing and a passion for product quality. Either one would dump a 10Bbl fermenter of beer if it was remotely suspect.

The third brewery was actually the first to open and has been around 5 years. The owner has no passion for his product and it clearly shows that he'd rather be doing something else besides brewing. One of his employees told me he didn't give a hoot about the business as he was simply looking for a niche market to get into first. If he had done it well, he would be the leader of the pack, but as it stands, I expect a For Sale sign to appear any day now.

Passion shows in all aspects of a brewery, and in your example, passion seems to be missing.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Or do you mean the lines that somebody decided to exist, like the guidelines we have for competitions? But who gave the creator of those competition guidelines the power to say that a constantly evolving beer style is now fixed, not changeable and has to be within his own idea of this type of beer? Is he right? Is he wrong?

What kind of information should he take as a base to set up those rules? The time of origination (see above)? The last one hudnred years? The average of what the ten most "sophisticated beer nerds" think they know about a style which roots are ten times older than they themself?

Are you familiar with how the BJCP style guidelines are created, modified over time, and what their purpose is? I'd suggest you read pages v-vi of that document.

The purpose is to help facilitate competitions. That's why the BJCP exists. That's why they create style guidelines. They're not trying to categorize all beers for all purposes. They're not trying to say that they are the end-all be-all defining what beer is. They simply are trying to make categories and styles that help homebrew competitions evaluate beer across uniform styles.

They are a reactive, not necessarily proactive, group. They try to write their guidelines to recognize what homebrewers are doing, including how styles evolve over time. They respond to popular changes within what homebrewers are doing by adding styles. And as styles change over time, they modify the guidelines to reflect differences. Look at the differences between the 1997 guidelines and the 2015 guidelines, and you'll see what I mean.

The recognize that their styles are limited. As such, they've expanded beyond something as simple as an "IPA" category to allow for various specialty IPA designations. They've created categories for historical beers as these have become popular, and typically these categories are pretty open to interpretation. And they of course have the catch-all specialty beer categories for beers that don't fall into the existing categories.

So nobody is creating lines saying that these are the rules forever. Even for the BJCP, beer styles are not fixed nor set in stone. These styles are meant to be descriptive [how the style is brewed *today*], not proscriptive [how the style must be brewed for all time]. They react to what homebrewers are doing rather than telling homebrewers what to do.

There are people who take these styles *way* too seriously. There are people who can't seem to get their minds around how to deal with beers that don't fit within these arbitrary styles. But the limitations of those peoples' mental flexibility is not the BJCP's fault for writing style guidelines in the first place.

Don't try to make the guidelines into something they're not.

 

[greenacarina]

Hey everyone. Tons of great insight in this conversation!!
Just wanted to toss in a few clarifying points in regard to my original post.
I am pretty easy going in regard to beers. I don't expect a beer to be the "best ever" each and every time. I will drink darn near anything if it's halfway decent (currently have cans of Rainier and Modelo Especial in the fridge).
The place i was referencing is in a very touristy town in my state. There was a Groupon...and i love a "bargain". They had 8 beers on tap (the usual suspects...nothing too adventurous)
Every one was distinctly sour. Don't know why...didn't want to ask.
And a word on the BJCP. I am of the mind that good beer is good beer...period.
I think style guidelines are a good thing and can be very helpful in understanding the finer aspects of beer. My brew club turned me on to the BJCP guide and the whole notion of beer judging. I don't really subscribe to the notion that beer must adhere to a strict standard, but reading and trying to understand these guidelines has taught me a lot!
I think brewing is art as well as science and art is about creativity and self expression.
The other aspect of style guidelines is this...
In the same town I visiited where the brewery with the sour beers was located...there is another brewery. Selection of about 8 or 10. I order a flight, selecting styles I usually drink and enjoy (pale, marzen, brown, pils, etc).
None of the beers were halfway close to the style they were advertised to be. None of them tickled my fancy enough to order a pint. Beer styles don't have to be set in stone, but if I order a Pils and end up with something closer to IPA...that isn't good.
Also I am a big believer in atmosphere. I have spent a lot of time dreaming about what I want my place to be like...going to a lot of other places and making note of what i like and what i don't.
My favorite bars are, above all else, the places I feel comfortable in.

Chris

 

[NitrogenWidget]

Haha. Have you seen the whisky that is now advertised as being "aged in an IPA cask". That's a new one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mg_p7KPleRc

There is a micro brewery and distillery on the same block near me.
They swap casks for aging.

 

[Miraculix]

Are you familiar with how the BJCP style guidelines are created, modified over time, and what their purpose is? I'd suggest you read pages v-vi of that document.

The purpose is to help facilitate competitions. That's why the BJCP exists. That's why they create style guidelines. They're not trying to categorize all beers for all purposes. They're not trying to say that they are the end-all be-all defining what beer is. They simply are trying to make categories and styles that help homebrew competitions evaluate beer across uniform styles.

They are a reactive, not necessarily proactive, group. They try to write their guidelines to recognize what homebrewers are doing, including how styles evolve over time. They respond to popular changes within what homebrewers are doing by adding styles. And as styles change over time, they modify the guidelines to reflect differences. Look at the differences between the 1997 guidelines and the 2015 guidelines, and you'll see what I mean.

The recognize that their styles are limited. As such, they've expanded beyond something as simple as an "IPA" category to allow for various specialty IPA designations. They've created categories for historical beers as these have become popular, and typically these categories are pretty open to interpretation. And they of course have the catch-all specialty beer categories for beers that don't fall into the existing categories.

So nobody is creating lines saying that these are the rules forever. Even for the BJCP, beer styles are not fixed nor set in stone. These styles are meant to be descriptive [how the style is brewed *today*], not proscriptive [how the style must be brewed for all time]. They react to what homebrewers are doing rather than telling homebrewers what to do.

There are people who take these styles *way* too seriously. There are people who can't seem to get their minds around how to deal with beers that don't fit within these arbitrary styles. But the limitations of those peoples' mental flexibility is not the BJCP's fault for writing style guidelines in the first place.

Don't try to make the guidelines into something they're not.

Thanks for clarifying, great read. I guess I have been under the influence of too many of the type of persons who you are describing in your last paragraph. The dogmatic type, and as you can see, I am not such a big fan of this type of world view

As you described the whole system, it looks way more inviting to me than the version I was too often confronted with when hearing / reading "not good because not according to style" and I was thinking "Ok... But isn't it more interesting if it is a great brew or not!?".

Glad to hear that this is not how it was supposed to be meant.

Thanks!

 

[MaryB]

I do a lot of smoking and I do not care how good your venting is, you have smoke particles going up in the air that are sticky, and likely grabbing a mold or bacteria and bring it into the brewing operation. I bet if he brewed when the smoker wasn't in use he would have better results. Add in the ventilation required is going to constantly be stirring up dust...

So get this; I am talking with a brewer at a nearby brewery who just happened to be a short-term member of our brewclub (He had to leave the club for official purposes by accepting the brewer position). We were talking about the quality of the beer there and I mentioned how I tasted more than 1 SOUR beer one day that was not supposed to be sour. I assumed they got some kegs mixed up, but he informs me that no, they were infected. There's been a problem lately and it seems to have started about the time they moved the brewery operations from the kitchen to a separate room. This should have been a more ideal location, and they got a biggish homebrew system to replace the smaller system they had.

Apparently this move into the new space makes it ideal for certain microbes to flourish. It's the only thing I can think of. He shares his brewroom with a good-sized smoker and whatnot. He's tried working with the management to find a solution for his fermentor temperature, and that is better, but they are still getting sour infections. He's gone over the system as much as he knows how, but when asking the management to help find a solution, he was told, "It is what it is."

Excuse me? This is supposed to be a kind of fancy eatery! Sure they can bring people in with the food, but everyone I know orders craft beer from other places when they eat there. To serve SOUR, infected beer is beyond lazy, it's terrible business! They started getting bad reviews about it. If they don't change something, pretty soon they will have a bad reputation and lose more customers.

I've always noticed a certain phenolic flavor to their hosue beers before, and that seems to have gone away after changing brewers, but not dealing with an infection issue, and then serving that infected beer, is insane! The servers claim they don't like beer and can't tell the difference. I advised he make a device to sample from the kegs prior to making them available for tapping at the bar. This would be the very minimal QC!

I didn't have a chance to talk at length about it as the brewday was finishing up, but I wonder if I should ask him if he needs some help pinpointing the problem. I'd love for the local places to make excellent beer, but I'm afraid I'm wasting my time if the managers aren't ready to accept that there is a problem to start with, and that there is likely a simple solution to fixing it. This place plans to open a second location about a 1/2 hour away, and I don't know what the plans are for brewing for both places, but maybe the solution is moving the brewery to a dedicated room in the new location?

I believe they mill grain in the brewing area now. They smoker is there, and it's readily accessible from the kitchen area. There is plenty of airflow due to the venting required for the smoker.

I feel like it should be possible to narrow this down to one or two potential causes, but I'm hesitant to go to the manager and suggest they make changes. After all, I'm just a homebrewer. (But then that's who they hired to brew for them a few months ago. Maybe them hearing it from another source would help?) It's frustrating because brewing is really pretty easy. Brewing really good beer might be a small challenge, but making decent beer, especially using the same system over and over, should be pretty easy.

 

[seatazzz]

I've seen a few of these here in the south end of Washington as well greencarina. Two local places come to mind (won't name them here because....well because). One brews "okay" beer. Had a flight there that basically was the rainbow, blonde, IPA, red, Amber, porter, and stout. EVERY ONE OF THEM tasted the same, with the exception of the stout that had a tiny bit of coffee flavor. Not "bad" beer, but nothing exceptional. The place is beautiful, large, very well appointed, but their beer is meh. I'm acquainted with someone who knows the head brewer there, and he says it's a matter of him not knowing how to scale up his old 5 gallon homebrew recipes to 4bbl batches. When we were there the place was full of young, hip, urbanites who raved about the beers. I wanted to smack them right in their unfeeling palates.

Another place I really shouldn't mention, because I've only had one of their beers (IPA) and it turned me off trying any others. The first sniff about made my stomach turn. Awful bandaid aroma, and the taste was old hops wrapped in bandaids. I politely finished the glass (without breathing through my nose), thanked them, and left. A sign on their wall stated their stout had won some award, but I was afraid to try it. These guys are brewing on their home property, have huge kettles and look to have spent big bucks on marketing and ambience. I've heard from others around here that their other beers are just as bad, but nobody will either tell the guy, or he doesn't listen.

One of the best things I've learned as a homebrewer is to LISTEN TO WISER, MORE EXPERIENCED, BREWERS THAN MYSELF. Once you get to a point where you think your poop don't stink you might as well snap your mash paddle across your knee.

About 6 months ago the husband and I were in another taproom (can't remember where or which one) and got a flight. All but one of the beers were very well done, enjoyed them. The amber however, was horrible. Just for the heck of it I asked the bartender about it...he admitted they had a bad batch of yeast and were just trying to get rid of it (at that point had 15 1/6th barrels left of it). Not the best out, but you gotta do what you gotta do to make the bottom line. We started a conversation with a couple sitting near us, he was drinking the very same amber and raved about it.

TL;DR. My main point is, craft beer is a fad (for some, like the young hip urbanites) and the die hard, in it for life, careful craft brewers will keep on doing what they do best. And they will prevail, in the end. End of rant.

 

[MaxStout]

Some people want beer with good taste. Others want beer that tastes good. I'm in the latter camp.