putting a subpannal in the shed, sticker shock on wire

[augiedoggy]

It might be 5%, 2% might be for DC or solar systems specifically (that is what I specifically looked it up for, and I am not an electrician I just work with some electrical systems). I know at work we look it up in a table, and use that.
When runs get long, the size of wire does needs to go up (even if it is just so it works), 150 ft is not that long but it might push your need to the next size up.

Makes sense since even with long extention cords there is voltage drop and lower than expected amp ratings.

 

[brewman !]

I just renovated a large house. It had a single 100A overloaded subpanel fed from the main panel in the detached garage. The feed from the garage to the single panel was aluminum Tek 90 cable.

We added a bunch of circuits to the house. I pulled a second Tek90 from the garage to the mechanical room and added a second 100A panel.

I used 3 conductor 1/0 aluminum, which is 3 conductors (red, black and a smaller white, plus a ground). Total cost for 140 feet was $387.

Tek 90 cable is rated for direct burial.

There are a lot of electrical code things to watch out for. You'll probably have to upgrade the main panel in order to add a 100A sub panel. Everything must be either burried or weather protected, general in conduit. You'll need a panel in your shed too.

Its a bit expensive to set this all up, but once its set up you'll probably be very happy with it as well as find other uses for it, ie air compressor, table saw, welders, electric heat in the garage, etc.

Don't ever skimp on setting up electrical stuff correctly and safely. Electrical fires are very real.

 

[F_R_O_G]

I got everything set up in the shed so i figured i'd post it here if anyone is interested instead of making a new thread

I set up a nice control panel, left to right is 20A 2pole switch, ssvr, potentiometer in box, 3prong drier plug. the next picture is the box and wiring all together

 

[augiedoggy]

hopefully your shed doesnt get a lot of condensation and turn into a steam room when brewing.... with everything high up like that it would be a concern if it did.. I had water dripping from my ceiling until I made an exhaust hood.

 

[brewman !]

What does the potentiometer do ?

Never mind... its an SSVR, not an SSR.

 

[kal]

There's nothing wrong with an aluminum feed for your subpanel. You just have to make sure your lugs in the panel are rated for aluminum (which they more than likely are) and use the anti-oxidation paste. Make sure to follow the torque recommendations for the lugs too. I put in an aluminum service drop for my panel upgrade and didn't think twice about it.

+1. Two years ago for our basement reno we had a new 200A main panel installed on the opposite side of the wall to the hydro meter. The short run between the two was aluminum (triple aught I believe). Lugs with paste were used.

Aluminum's not allowed between the panel and outlets/fixtures in certain areas now as others have mentioned. Too many issues with loose connections causing heat and possible fires.

I set up a nice control panel, left to right is 20A 2pole switch, ssvr, potentiometer in box, 3prong drier plug. the next picture is the box and wiring all together

In addition to the steam concern (I'm actually less worried about that), I'd be concerned with the fact that there are completely exposed high voltage/current connections on the SSR/SSVR placed right between two things you'll be touching (the potentiometer dial and the switch). One day you're doing to reach up to adjust one of the two and not pay attention and touch the SSR and get a nasty shock. The propensity for brewers to drink while brewing just escalates the possibility of this happening. You really should put the SSR in the metal box or at least cover/tape up all exposed connection points. Just my 2 cents.

Kal

 

[augiedoggy]

+1. Two years ago for our basement reno we had a new 200A main panel installed on the opposite side of the wall to the hydro meter. The short run between the two was aluminum (triple aught I believe). Lugs with paste were used.

Aluminum's not allowed between the panel and outlets/fixtures in certain areas now as others have mentioned. Too many issues with loose connections causing heat and possible fires.



In addition to the steam concern (I'm actually less worried about that), I'd be concerned with the fact that there are completely exposed high voltage/current connections on the SSR/SSVR placed right between two things you'll be touching (the potentiometer dial and the switch). One day you're doing to reach up to adjust one of the two and not pay attention and touch the SSR and get a nasty shock. The propensity for brewers to drink while brewing just escalates the possibility of this happening. You really should put the SSR in the metal box or at least cover/tape up all exposed connection points. Just my 2 cents.

Kal

I believe that ssr has a clear plastic cover on it but good point ... especially if one has wet hands when reaching up there.

 

[kal]

Ah! You're probably right - I forgot many SSRs came with clear covers. That would certainly be a step in the right direction.

Kal

 

[PleasantValleyHops]

How does no one seem to be concerned with the wiring here. It's Def not a good idea to have all that directly above your brew area. And having the wires cross directly over your panel is just a little lazy IMHO. I can't tell by the plug but please tell me their is a connector there. There's plenty of other stuff I'd be concerned about throughout this thread but don't feel like hitting on those this am. at least protect your wires please.

Edit×÷×÷÷×÷÷÷×

I want to clarify more what I was saying. Aluminum is used in the industry a lot. And when I say a lot I mean 100 million dollar builds. Every year. It's not that I'm worried about. It was more the unprotected wiring. I understand I temp set up. To be completely honest. The gfci is truly only needed for pump application. And that I'm not completely sold on. When u build an all e setup is uses same basic technology as a water heater. I don't know when the last time anyone looked. But I can put $1000 that it isn't gfci protected. If you properly protect wiring. You have nothing to worry about. Like frog has stated. I've been burned by water. But have never been one slightest bit worried about shock. But I also have over killed my grounding just in case. #4 to all kettles to central ground bar back to earth. So by no means am I trying to says I wouldn't brew on the set up. I just hope people that post on here will start to only post things they know for sure instead of just throwing out numbers.

Pleasant Valley Hops inc.
Carroll Brewing Company
Frederick Md

 

[augiedoggy]

How does no one seem to be concerned with the wiring here. It's Def not a good idea to have all that directly above your brew area. And having the wires cross directly over your panel is just a little lazy IMHO. I can't tell by the plug but please tell me their is a connector there. There's plenty of other stuff I'd be concerned about throughout this thread but don't feel like hitting on those this am. at least protect your wires please.

Pleasant Valley Hops inc.
Carroll Brewing Company
Frederick Md

I think its been established that this is extreme budget build. Which is fine. However the short cuts and lack of safety effort does raise eyebrows though on what kind of precautions were really taken with that aluminum wire to make sure it really was secured to meet code and be safe.!
Sorry frog that's just how I see it. Am I wrong? I hope so.

And why the big 30a outlet if you are only using 12 gauge 20a wiring and circuit?

 

[F_R_O_G]

this is what i get for not showing the finished product.... this is not a permanent solution, maybe use this for a year or 2.

the ssvr does have a plastic cover but i plan to tape up the wires so there is no exposed wire at all. as for the steam a hood is in the near future and i can open a big door for now, plus I'm going to move the pot to the other side of the table for now, and there are vents in the shed. the 30A plug will ONLY be used for my heatstick because that's the plug i put on it before this build so i could plug it into the dryer outlet inside.

i understand everyones concerns but.... it's a good this it's my house or this would never get done....

 

[brew_ny]

The propensity for brewers to drink while brewing .

Kal

people drink while they brew , no way

but I have heard that also

all the best

S_M

 

[augiedoggy]

this is what i get for not showing the finished product.... this is not a permanent solution, maybe use this for a year or 2.

the ssvr does have a plastic cover but i plan to tape up the wires so there is no exposed wire at all. as for the steam a hood is in the near future and i can open a big door for now, plus I'm going to move the pot to the other side of the table for now, and there are vents in the shed. the 30A plug will ONLY be used for my heatstick because that's the plug i put on it before this build so i could plug it into the dryer outlet inside.

i understand everyones concerns but.... it's a good this it's my house or this would never get done....

J
The thing is it takes les than a second for something that's unsafe to cause a real problem or death... I'm not sure how saying its only going to be used this way for a year or two makes it any safer?
And im confused by your last statement? This forum is full of people that accomplished the same function in their own homes safely and meeting safety codes.... sure many people take shortcuts and that will always happen... just like fires and accidental deaths...
There's nothing over reactive or prohibitively expensive about accomplishing your goal safely and others considering a similar build may learn from concerns mentioned ... I've had to make changes to my original plans more than once as I learned from others mistakes and constructive criticism.
Your reason for the 30a outlet makes sense... but you can see why someone would be curious right? I'm assuming your using 4500w or smaller elements since the wiring only supports 20a? Again I ask so others getting ideas understand that 5500w elements need 10guage wiring to be safe. I saw you wanted 50a service and assumed you were using larger elements... my bad, but that also why I asked. Without knowing your plans your setup seemed mismatched.
Ugly and cheap are fine (have you seen my setup?) But unsafe is not.

 

[F_R_O_G]

you have to be smart about how you brew, i'v seen more people get hurt from hot water and broken carboys more than electricity, like brew_ny said, if i don't get drunk while making beer then I'm far safer than most. how come people don't jump on drinking and brewing?

thanks for all the helpful advise, now if you could tell me how to do it better, not just tell me whats wrong, since this is the first time for me.... any helpful advise on how to make it safer is appreciated, don't just tell me it's not safe, that doesn't help at all. and please tell my if you are a currently certified tech, because bad advice is worse than no advice.

it is a 4500w element

 

[augiedoggy]

Since it is a 4500 watt element and you plan on wrapping the wires I think the only other base you need to cover if you haven't already is a gfci and a good ground on the pot If it was a 5500 watt element I would have suggested thicker wiring..

I am certified in the electronics field and have about 17 years experience on large 220 and 480v equipment with heating elements and such .... I will say with that said there's quite a bit I didn't know that I learned here myself which helped with my build and I myself have been corrected more than once here so..

 

[mattd2]

you have to be smart about how you brew, i'v seen more people get hurt from hot water and broken carboys more than electricity, like brew_ny said, if i don't get drunk while making beer then I'm far safer than most. how come people don't jump on drinking and brewing?

thanks for all the helpful advise, now if you could tell me how to do it better, not just tell me whats wrong, since this is the first time for me.... any helpful advise on how to make it safer is appreciated, don't just tell me it's not safe, that doesn't help at all. and please tell my if you are a currently certified tech, because bad advice is worse than no advice.

it is a 4500w element

My big question/suggestion is that you went to the trouble of putting the pot in a lunchbox - why no buy a bigger tupperware container and stick everything else in there also, that way there will be no exposed (tapped) wires that have the potential to kill you when you are not looking.
Saying that more people are hurt by hot liquid / broken carboys than electricity does not then mean that you can be haphazard about your electrical installation - there are less injuries because, from what I have seen on here, people take more care with how they install their electrical gear not because it is less dangerous.
What happens if you have a mate over to brew and he rests his hand on the beam is just the wrong way and gets hurt?

I am not a certified sparky, I am a Mech projects engineer and have done my fair share of construction supervison and safety analysis. and this just screams out high hazard to me; in my experience anything with a risk of permentant injury, possible fatality is a high hazard that must be address independant of the likelyhood of occurance.

 

[F_R_O_G]

What happens if you have a mate over to brew and he rests his hand on the beam is just the wrong way and gets hurt?

then he probably deserved it

JK

 

[mattd2]

then he probably deserved it

JK

I know you are joking, but it is just unnerving thatthe only thing you reply to in my post is to make a joke about a mate getting hurt - after you requested suggestions to make the setup safer.
Not to beat on about it, but if this was me I would at the vary least have all points where wires are terminated placed inside a protective box and not rely on tape as an insulator. And I think most would consider temporary to be set up only to make sure it works as intened not 1-2 years, in other words most would not actually brew with a temporary electrical setup.

 

[augiedoggy]

then he probably deserved it

JK

lame answer

 

[F_R_O_G]

i guess this will happen to me then

 

[brew_ny]

that looks like it hurts

 

[mattd2]

um, yeah... so... Did you actually want suggestions on how to make it safer or just for us to all agree with you that hot water is more dangerous than electricity?